Your views: should we have first class on trains at all?

[wellhouse]

Having started this thread with the question ‘Should we have first class on trains at all?’, the OP makes conflicting proposals before seeking our views

first class provision should be reduced

I would like to see it removed

Undoubtedly many of you will disagree with me but I would like to hear why.

Apart from the considerable value of First Class as Fuel For The Forum, there are two straightforward grounds for disagreement with the OP; many passengers wish to travel First Class, and TOCs wish to earn additional revenue from their business.

As the thread develops, however, it seems the OP has a great concern comparing his choices against those of others.

I think that price reduction plays a big part in the choices posters are able to make.

I don't have access to a railcard or, often, the luxury of being able to book well in advance or chose the time of my travel. That drives my choices

.

He is disconcerted that some passengers pay lower fares than he does. Well, there are many ways of getting a discount without a Railcard. Taking the Anytime Single Standard fare as the reference point, discounts may be found by choosing;

Return Fares
Multiple journeys (Seasons, Rovers, Rangers & Carnets)
Fares with Off-Peak restrictions
Advance Fares restricted to specific services
Fares restricted to specific operators
Travelling in a group

The OP seems particularly exercised by discounts offers to particular passengers;

many people seem to be getting tickets for child/OAP rates or on their student railcard.

it seems most of you get a discount.

As with many businesses in the Service Sector, TOCs have sophisticated pricing strategies to secure the highest possible fare that any passenger is willing to pay. For some passengers, a rail journey may be a Discretionary Purchase, and they are prepared to make their journey by rail only if they pay lower fare.

The art of differential pricing is to devise a fares structure attracting Discretionary Purchasers, while still securing the highest fares they will pay. It is possible to identify particular preferences and priorities. Hence the complex fares which vary according to a matrix embracing such factors as as immediacy of travel, flexibility of time to travel, departure time, arrival time, route of travel, TOC, comfort, and price.

There are those who have less choice about whether or when they travel. Theirs is a ‘Distress Purchase’ and however reluctantly, they will pay a relatively high fare for their journey. The OP seems to fall in this category;

I don't have much flexibility.

I don't have... the luxury of being able to book well in advance or chose the time of my travel. That drives ... my views on first class.

What on earth is this to do with provision of First Class?

The OP prioritises immediacy of travel and flexibility, and pays more than the lowest fare for those preferences, while sacrificing maximum comfort to avoid the highest fare.He apparently finds the comfort and facilities in Standard Class satisfactory for his needs;

yet i and many others run up vast mileages for work every year and manage perfectly well with a laptop in second class

I can work non stop from, say, York to Kings Cross in second.

yes - every time i travel for work - it is the only way I can discharge my responsibilities. it might be emails via my phone or device or it might be working on my lap top. It might be reading papers. I have to use the journey to catch up....I regularly use TPE between York & Manchester and seem to be able to work despite the constraints

Another passenger may prioritise comfort, and pay more than the lowest fare for that, while forgoing maximum immediacy or flexibility to save paying the highest fare. In fact, it appears the OP sometimes has been (and intends to be) that very passenger;

I have used first class as a treat from time to time. It was nice,.

I enjoyed my ride on the Wales Express train for instance.

...in the real world first class is a treat.

Until then my first class journeys will be very limited.

and he further contradicts himself;

No real problem with the option

Perhaps the fundamental issue is that having passed his childhood and adolescence…

I don't have access to a railcard

…he is now in the working phase of his life where he must achieve his major lifetime earnings while saving for his retirement;

in about 35 years i might qualify for a railcard.

Railcards are offered to the Young and Old not just because they are in low-income phases of their lives, but because they have leisure time when they might be induced to make increased discretionary journeys. Seems reasonable to me.

Some thoughts for the OP;

I just want a discount on off peak travel

There is certainly a case to be argued for a UK equivalent of the German Bahncard,

( the same as a student) in reward for working long hours trying to provide an infrastructure base the trains can run on

The reward for working is the wage

That would give me an large increase in my disposable income.

The OP’s profile indicates home in Darlington and work in Fenny Stratford. There may be other options to increase disposable income.

I would also like people to admit if they pay full price for their tickets, get a child or OAP fare or have access to a railcard

Full declarations as requested.

‘Full Price’ is a meaningless concept. If the OP means ‘Anytime Single’, then I seldom buy one for longer journeys. I choose to sacrifice flexibility and plan my travel in advance. I prefer First Class comfort (and it is worth noting that the First Class percentage premium on Advance fares is often greater than that for Anytime Fares).

I hold a Senior Railcard.

I commuted for many years on Thameslink from Harlington to London, when there was a significant differentiation between 3+2 standard and 2+1 First Class accommodation. I paid for a First Class Season, and held a Netrork Railcard.

In GNER days I travelled once a week for work between Leeds and London. I travelled on expenses early and late on First Class Advance fares cheaper than Anytime Standard fares, because I chose the longer days in favour of the comfort. I paid for Restaurant Car Breakfasts and the occasional Dinner out of my own pocket because they were worth it.

 

[DarloRich]

I have to say @wellhouse has a great deal of spare time on his hands. What an odd chap. You also seem to have spent ages writing lots of stuff but nit expressed a view of your own. Do you have one?

 

[404250]

With the shortage of capacity and most complaints from customers being about overcrowding shouldn't all 1st class be refitted as standard class?

 

[Jonfun]

While people will pay through the roof for it, the TOCs will continue to provide it. Plus (particularly on Intercity operators) it's a useful justification for having additional staff on the train.

 

[MrCub]

I don't think it should. If we have it, it should be of a uniform quality to justify the fare. The InterCity example with freebies is good. There is an argument for getting rid in the NSE area because the product is so poor. However the accommodation is limited anyway so it won't do an awful lot of good, and people will pay for 1st class seasons to get a seat.

 

[ijmad]

On crowded metro routes in to cities during the morning peak, yes, it's ridiculous.

On long distance routes, possibly the number of first class seats should be reduced, but some people do want to guarantee a seat with a table and enough elbow room to work, and if their workplace is paying for that, whatever.

 

[NoOnesFool]

No, absolutely not. First Class is an important part of the customer experience and is a good way of bringing extra revenue to the railway. If a passenger wants a stronger chance of a seat, then they should buy a First Class ticket. The irony is, that in the "NSE" regions that one user mentioned, a better chance of a seat is one of the main advantages. There would be something very sad about the railway heading towards the 'no thrills' market, especially considering a premium experience is what makes so many people choose rail over coach travel.

 

[ijmad]

The irony is, that in the "NSE" regions that one user mentioned, a better chance of a seat is one of the main advantages. There would be something very sad about the railway heading towards the 'no thrills' market, especially considering a premium experience is what makes so many people choose rail over coach travel.

Maybe London Underground should introduce first class, might help with their revenue issues.

Maybe even London Busses?!



Perhaps if we had a rail network that wasn't overcrowded, first class would be reasonable, but no frills is all we can expect when every train between 8am and 9am is crush loaded.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Maybe London Underground should introduce first class, might help with their revenue issues.

Maybe even London Busses?!

I assume that your suggestions are made in humour, but if London buses weren't so heavily regulated, it wouldn't surprise me if there was a premium bus service offered around London, for the more discerning type of passenger i.e. executives and minor celebrities.

 

[voyagerdude220]

As a partial counter argument to the OP's opinion that First Class should be abolished, I think that whilst there doesn't need to be a general increase in First Class capacity, some trains upon which original First Class accommodation has been converted to Standard Class should have this change reverted back to First Class.

Why? Two examples in mind:

1) GWR HSTs- I've been on a few where First Class has been full and standing, where as Standard has been maybe 70-80% full. Yes if Standard hadn't been given the additional Standard carriage, it would have had a small number of people having to stand, however, I'd argue the combined revenue of those having paid for First Class, who were standing, would have been far greater than that of equivalent passengers in Standard Class.

2) Virgin Pendolinos- very similarly to GWR- I've struggled to find a seat, or had to sit next to others around a table of four- owing to the only seats in First Class being free, to be with others around a table of four. Of course I'm not expecting a table of four to myself, however, it of course lessons the appeal of paying for a "premium" product, when you're struggling to find seats.

Also, the journeys which both of the trains I mention can easily be 4+ hours.

 

[UP13]

Commuter services no - not space efficient and I don't think it offers that much.

Intercity services with food etc then yes.

Crowded standard class carriages and half emtpy first class carriages shouldn't be allowed IMO.

 

[pacenotes]

No

Any journey over a hour I’ll ill sit in F and will pay it.

 

[ijmad]

One issue with peak time metro services is that often they are declassified, but people don't know this. I think the TOCs should be pushed (or forced) to make it clearer when a first class area is declassified, either through electronic means or sensible poster signage.

 

[NoOnesFool]

One issue with peak time metro services is that often they are declassified, but people don't know this. I think the TOCs should be pushed (or forced) to make it clearer when a first class area is declassified, either through electronic means or sensible poster signage.

At Elstree & Borehamwood, this is certainly announced when FC is declassified, and considering Govia operate the majority of services (urban) where FC is declassified, one would think thatthat declassified is well communicated to passengers.

 

[Mag_seven]

Not this again - been done to death before (like abolishing seat reservations has).

Here is the most recent thread on this topic which is still open for discussion:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-we-have-first-class-on-trains-at-all.161352/

 

[MarkyT]

Should airlines abolish premium classes? Should luxury cars and hotels be banned? Few people would argue that, so why is the rail business any different? If TOCs can persuade some people to part with more of their money for greater luxury, then why shouldn't they? Is it preferable that 'the elite' should travel by road in their luxury motors? Of course there are services where 1st class accommodation is inappropriate, and the relative proportions of different classes is mostly a commercial/public relations decision for the TOC. Too much fresh air riding around in first on otherwise crowded services isn't good for publicity, but that can also be addressed by marketing special offers to fill seats in first outside times of traditional peak demand.

 

[UP13]

Airliners don't have people standing in the economy class while there are empty first seats. I also doubt that up to a quarter of the plane is first class either.

 

[InterCity:125]

'no thrills'

Surely ‘no frills’ unless we’re talking about rollercoasters.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes. Instantly. However the board will be dead against it. Especially those who travel for kids rates, hold a railcard or get it free.

When someone gives me free first class travel I will be all for it. Until then......

 

[CC 72100]

Perhaps if we had a rail network that wasn't overcrowded, first class would be reasonable, but no frills is all we can expect when every train between 8am and 9am is crush loaded.

Shock horror, if you commute into a major city, you won't get a seat and it will be pretty busy. And that's like it in several countries across the world.

 

[MarkyT]

Airliners don't have people standing in the economy class while there are empty first seats. I also doubt that up to a quarter of the plane is first class either.

Rail, at least on long distance routes, COULD also be reservations only, but I would never advocate that. 25% is probably too much I agree, on Pendolinos for instance, but that's nothing new on the WCML with a similar proportion in loco hauled sets I recall.

 

[cactustwirly]

No, but some operators such as VT and LNER have too much of it!
IMO GWR have the right balance of first and standard class coaches

 

[gord]

My heart says 'yes' as it isn't right that those who earn less may be forced to stand while 1st class sits empty, (however, this view is becoming more outdated as advance fares can make 1st class more accessible for all).

My head says no as 1st class on intercity routes actually creates extra jobs and in our current climate, jobs are very valuable things and should be protected.

 

[yorksrob]

Fitst class should be retained, and on NSE routes, first class compartments should be reinstated.

 

[Pete_uk]

Commuter trains yes

Intercity no

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

surely a better suggestion would be to abolish 2nd class, bring 1st class fares down to current 2nd class fares and then make all intercity trains reservation only?

 

[Moonshot]

First class will never be abolished whilst there is a demand for it. Its that simple. I often use it myself.

 

[dk1]

Always bugs me when people tweet that standard class is packed yet 1st class is empty. No, first class isn't empty that's one mighty exaggeration to add weight to their strop. It is normally comfortably full for those paying the premium for it.

 

[ComUtoR]

Southeastern ITT pg75

https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/664302/south-eastern-franchise-itt.pdf

(B) EVIDENCE THAT BIDDERS SHOULD PROVIDE
In addition to the Minimum Evidential Requirements, Bidders’ responses must include :
(...)
b) A description of the planned approach to the removal of First Class accommodation on Passenger Services

A sign of things to come ?

 

[Craig2601]

I believe first class should be made more affordable for long journeys. For example, in Italy Italo/La Freccia trains often have premium tickets available at prices not much more than standard and the system they do operate on Italo trains of having 4 classes I think is great. If you’re travelling on a budget you can often travel in Standard for as little as €9 for some pretty good distances and then if people are willing to pay more then they can, rising up through the different classes with added benefits up to Club executive. It means the train can satisfy those on a budget (like me!) and those happy to upgrade.