Your views: should we have first class on trains at all?

[47271]

It is lucky you are able to afford/ allowed to pay for the upgrade. If you are able to then crack on but lets not pretned the only place you can work is first class. Many of us are not able to use FC and have to manage, somehow, with our arms and legs bound in a second class seat. BTW - I regularly use TPE between York & Manchester and seem to be able to work despite the constraints.

Maybe I am lucky and, yes, I'll crack on.

But when did I pretend that the only place I can work is First Class? In my first post in this thread I was very clear that I wouldn't bother with it on those TOCs that offer no advantage, and I'll be the judge of what provides me with that advantage.

 

[Starmill]

I just want a discount on off peak travel ( the same as a student) in reward for working long hours trying to provide an infrastructure base the trains can run on.

If you do not believe you recieve the adequate rewards for your job, then I think that is something you should take up with your employer. I find it baffling that what you have chosen to do instead is come on here to complain to us about the completely unrelated issue of First Class.

You have chosen to belittle people who have access to commercially operated discount schemes that you do not. You have chosen to complain about people on this forum being "smug" with no evidence of that being the case. You have asked a question, and been given a very sensible level-headed answer and then you have rejected that answer and asked for a better one. You have chosen to poke fun at those who have the "encyclopedic knowledge" to assist you getting cheaper travel. You have created this thread on the pretense of having a mature debate (that is very neccesary and I think interesting) about what services should or should not have First Class, when in fact your responses demonstrate that the only thing you are interested in is this:

I wish you and many other posters could grasp that very simple concept.

I have no sympathy for you.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think that first class provision should be reduced and more space given to standard class passengers. Frankly I would like to see it removed on the majority of trains and the quality of standard class accommodation improved to compensate.

I would generally agree with this. Especially in those areas of the country where overcrowding is becoming more and more of a problem. I'm aware of at least one TOC in the south east which is going to be withdrawing first class in its next franchise.

It still has a place on longer distance trains, Pullman dining etc.

I would also like people to admit if they pay full price for their tickets, get a child or OAP fare or have access to a railcard. I think that price reduction plays a big part in the choices posters are able to make.

I've certainly never paid full price for it. I've used it either by buying an advance ticket or indeed have been "upgraded for free" by asking a guard and showing a TOC ID.

Companies have wised up and it's becoming harder and harder for many people in the business world to expense first class travel (unless they can book advanced tickets for less than the price of a standard class walk-up).

I don't have access to a railcard or, often, the luxury of being able to book well in advance or chose the time of my travel. That drives my choices and my views on first class.

But it's nice that it's there as an option, no? I've certainly enjoyed Pullman dining in the past and would like to again. The fact I can't/don't do it regularly doesn't really affect that viewpoint. In the same way, I'm glad it's still possible to take a loco hauled pullman train out of London Victoria, although I've never done it.

 

[D365]

I am not greedy. I don't want free travel. I just want a discount on off peak travel ( the same as a student) in reward for working long hours trying to provide an infrastructure base the trains can run on. That would give me an large increase in my disposable income. Hopefully in about 35 years i might qualify for a railcard. Until then my first class journeys will be very limited.

Ironically, I’ve been encouraged to make use of my young persons railcard (one which I procured myself before starting work) when booking rail travel for business use. Like you, no personal discount either!

 

[DarloRich]

The last time I travelled by train on work time I didn't get a table seat, the train did not have standard class sockets and there was no wifi. The train was full too with many people standing for more than two hours. I did get some work done on my phone and the battery pack I brought using my 3G data as and when available (sometimes, inevitably, there was no signal), but I wonder if you would have managed to do what you needed to under those circumstances.

I have been in that position many times - it is a case of reading and responding to emails on your phone. I have a Windows phone which is rubbish for most things except emails for which it is very good ( although not as good as my old Blackberry sadly) and has a really strong battery however the situation you describe is far from perfect. I once even commandeered the toilet for a conference call! Perhaps If we got rid of first class there could be more table seats for second class use

If you do not believe you recieve the adequate rewards for your job, then I think that is something you should take up with your employer. I find it baffling that what you have chosen to do instead is come on here to complain to us about the completely unrelated issue of First Class.

I didn't raise that as an issue but an unsolicited statement was made about my views which I clarified. BTW - you have no idea what I have or have not done about this situation but thanks for your advice.

You have chosen to belittle people who have access to commercially operated discount schemes that you do not. You have chosen to complain about people on this forum being "smug" with no evidence of that being the case. You have asked a question, and been given a very sensible level-headed answer and then you have rejected that answer and asked for a better one. You have chosen to poke fun at those who have the "encyclopedic knowledge" to assist you getting cheaper travel. You have created this thread on the pretense of having a mature debate (that is very neccesary and I think interesting) about what services should or should not have First Class, when in fact your responses demonstrate that the only thing you are interested in is this:

No, I have expressed my view in a provocative and direct way. I note you seem to struggle with a challenge to your views or directness. I also note you ( and others) have been unable to provide a decent reason for first class travel. Please feel free to suggest some & try and change my view.

I will agree that the free wifi that often comes with first class travel would help my work as I wouldn't have to go through the palaver of tethering my phone and computer together then lashing up to the network. it would save me some time and let me do more. if the connection was reliable it might let me use some of the conferencing applications, beyond voice, that are available to me in the office.

I have no sympathy for you.

No problem - thanks for calling round

But it's nice that it's there as an option, no? I've certainly enjoyed Pullman dining in the past and would like to again. The fact I can't/don't do it regularly doesn't really affect that viewpoint. In the same way, I'm glad it's still possible to take a loco hauled pullman train out of London Victoria, although I've never done it.

No real problem with the option. I enjoyed my ride on the Wales Express train for instance - I, however, would prefer that second class was of a better quality, especially on longer distance intercity services. Perhaps the odd free cup of tea might be a good start VTEC offer free wifi on advance tickets for there route which is very helpful work wise.

 

[peri]

It does not appear to be an efficient use of space, too much fresh air being carried.
I propose that when ECML is being run at the behest of DFT we hold an experiment in reducing the cost of first class until we achieve 40-50% occupancy.

 

[Bromley boy]

Perhaps the odd free cup of tea might be a good start

Midland Mainline used to provide free tea and coffee for standard class passengers. Those were the days! And not even that long ago.

 

[Starmill]

I also note you ( and others) have been unable to provide a decent reason for first class travel.

First Class is being offered and there are times when it is in line with my travel requirements. When it is I might make the consumer decision to pay for it. This happens relatively frequently. I will not believe that you don't understand that - you yourself have made journeys in First Class. It's not unusual; most of the economy is structured around this type of consumer behavior. At the most basic possible level, the reason First Class is being provided is because people are paying for it. Why you think anything I or anyone else on this board might be answering for the train companies in this regard though I do not know.

I would add that I am not really interested in changing your view. Apparently, neither are the train operators, who continue to offer first class in spite of your opprobrium of them for doing so. I do not see why you have come here to ask us all to change your view, in light of your tone and style.

 

[DarloRich]

First Class is being offered and there are times when it is in line with my travel requirements. When it is I might make the consumer decision to pay for it. This happens relatively frequently. I will not believe that you don't understand that - you yourself have made journeys in First Class. It's not unusual; most of the economy is structured around this type of consumer behavior. At the most basic possible level, the reason First Class is being provided is because people are paying for it. Why you think anything I or anyone else on this board might be answering for the train companies in this regard though I do not know.

Thanks for expressing an honest view. I agree that it is a discretionary purchase for many. I simply wondered if it is worth offering. Personally I would prefer that the space available for second class passengers be increased and the quality of that offering improved.

BTW - I am not asking you to answer for the train companies. That would be preposterous. If you extended that posistion outwards we could never comment on brexit, or bread or bananas! I was simply interested in views. Mine are obvious. I wondered if you were willing to express your own.

 

[hexagon789]

Put simply: Yes, if TT-ONR-NRN is paying!!!

Put seriously: On suburban/commuter routes I would tend to say it's not really worth it, the extra capacity is useful and where provided as stated above, they quality is often terrible. On InterCity/long-distance services I do think it has place though.

 

[bb21]

Targetting First Class provision on suburban commuter routes in order to increase capacity in Standard Class is imo completely missing the point. On most routes the former comprise a very small section so the increase in capacity is of very limited scope, not to mention reduced income. Any serious consideration about increasing Standard Class provision must be centred around increasing rolling stock availability, not number-crunching as the government were so fond of.

So unfortunately my personal opinion is that First Class accommodation should be left well alone on suburban commuter routes.

For longer-distance travel, I favour the approach of a more varied offering not restricted to just two classes of accommodation, but that is a discussion in itself and probably warrants a separate thread.

 

[Starmill]

Any serious consideration about increasing Standard Class provision must be centred around increasing rolling stock availability, not number-crunching as the government were so fond of.

Exactly. It is relatively peripheral. An increase in train length is the only real way forward on that score.

 

[yorkie]

....I, however, would prefer that second class was of a better quality, especially on longer distance intercity services. Perhaps the odd free cup of tea might be a good start VTEC offer free wifi ...

OK, so one class of accommodation on the train.

It will have plenty of tables and a lower density layout than existing Standard. In order to be revenue neutral, the fares will have to be higher than the existing Standard fares, while lower than existing First fares.

It'll allow people to travel in splendour, sup their free teas and coffees and surf the free internet. And plenty of toilets to cater for conference calls.

We could potentially call it Standard Class, or alternatively we could call it First Class, but the name won't matter to most people. I'll leave you and TT-ONR-NRN to debate the name

I dislike how many people want to get rid of first class. Just because they cannot afford it, doesn’t mean other people who can should suffer.

Is this really a wise choice of words? (rhetorical question; no need to answer)

Some of the things you have said about first class - in numerous threads - have raised eyebrows, turned some people against the idea of First Class, and resulted in the creation of this thread. You may want to think about that.

...I would prefer people to be less smug about it ....

I don't think this applies to many people at all. In one or two cases, yes I can understand where you are coming from, but no more than that.

 

[MG11]

I think what the OP is trying to suggest is something like EMT's Norwich-Liverpool services, which utilise high quality Standard Class seating and a quality (chargeable) refreshment service but with a concentrated focus on one size fits all. This approach works well for the Liv-Norwich and also the ATW services, but in the London market, would it work? Would you miss the FC LoungesLand reclining seats on a business trip out of King's Cross? Could TOCs successfully provide a STD across the whole network... Or are geographical markets too contrasted?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How are you more productive in FC? Can you explain? I can work non stop from, say, York to Kings Cross in second. Are you not able to?



we aren't allowed first class - even if it is cheaper



The answer to my question to you is no, you don't seem to be able to offer any reasons. Why not try again?

I have used first class as a treat from time to time. It was nice, however for me ( unlike you and many others here) it was not the norm. I cant afford it, don't get a discount, don't have much flexibility and nor do i have an encyclopedic knowledge of the ticketing system and/or a friend in the ticket office. For most of us in the real world first class is a treat. I wish you and many other posters could grasp that very simple concept.

The OP comes across as very bitter. Just because he is unable or unwilling to book well in advance to secure a deal, others shouldn't be allowed to either. I personally find that to book standard class at a reasonable price often requires a commitment in order to obtain a sensibly priced ticket - I've got a ticket booked for May (not FC!) that has cost me £30.50. If I were to book that same ticket for this coming weekend tonight, it would cost me £70.20 (advance, train specific), or £108.70 'walk on'. I'll go FC if I think it's a reasonable deal and want the extra comfort - personal choice, in the same way some will choose to have a flash car (tho some may not have the luxury of being able to afford one though).

i agree totally. It’s different people’s preferences at the end of the day.

I would like to apologise to the OP if my rather honest postings have caused irritation in any way however. Not the intention

 

[yorksrob]

Even though I like EMT's cross country 158's, they still feel fairly compact (and can get fairly busy at times), so whilst a good attempt at getting a good 'cross the board' standard offering, I feel there's still a marketing opportunity inherent in being able to upgrade for more space/comfort.

There's also a psychological effect of people feeling more in control of their journey, by being able to upgrade, which is marketable.

That said the, the price differential should be such that the offering proves attractive throughout the day. There's no excuse these days for carting around four empty carriages when standard is full.

 

[nlogax]

I'm personally unconvinced for the need of 1st class on short distances / commuter routes. Inter-city trains..fine, if it makes the TOC some money then great, good for them and good for the fools - or their employers - willing to pay top whack for Anytime 1st tickets.

Occasionally I'll travel in 1st as a treat to myself - usually London to Scotland which means I've had the opportunity to plan and buy well in advance so costs aren't an issue. Most of the time, Standard is just fine as long as I have a seat and I get from A to B. That's all that really matters.

 

[Bromley boy]

Targetting First Class provision on suburban commuter routes in order to increase capacity in Standard Class is imo completely missing the point. On most routes the former comprise a very small section so the increase in capacity is of very limited scope, not to mention reduced income.

In can make quite a difference. If you have a 12 coach train (3*4 car units) and 1/2 a coach on each unit is first class, getting rid of it could give you 1.5 coaches per train. When trains are full and standing, that's very useful.

You're right that other methods need to be looked at long term to increase capacity, but removing 1st is much lower hanging fruit than replacing stock that's half way through its lifecycle or less, lengthening platforms, improving signalling etc.

I'm surprised the 700s were specified with first class but no doubt it could be easily removed in future if the need arose.

 

[bb21]

In can make quite a difference. If you have a 12 coach train (3*4 car units) and 1/2 a coach on each unit is first class, getting rid of it could give you 1.5 coaches per train. When trains are full and standing, that's very useful.

You're right that other methods need to be looked at long term to increase capacity, but removing 1st is much lower hanging fruit than replacing stock that's half way through its lifecycle or less, lengthening platforms, improving signalling etc.

I'm surprised the 700s were specified with first class but no doubt it could be easily removed in future if the need arose.

There would be a small difference yes, but it is unlikely to be substantial, and certainly not the solution anyone should be focusing their efforts on.

If you convert a 2+2 First Class area into a 2+2 Standard Class area, you don't gain any additional seating overall and those First Class passengers still have to be accommodated albeit now paying less. There may be some more standing room for Standard passengers but that's about it.

Converting a 2+2 First Class area into a 2+3 Standard Class area gains you under 20 seats on a 12-car formation but the increase in standing room is very limited.

On a truly wedged service First Class area would likely be invaded by standees holding Standard tickets anyway.

So as a last resort, yes, but as a standard solution, not at all.

 

[GodAtum]

Undoubtedly many of you will disagree with me but I would like to hear why. I would also like people to admit if they pay full price for their tickets, get a child or OAP fare or have access to a railcard. I think that price reduction plays a big part in the choices posters are able to make.

I pay full price for an annual 1st class ticket. Reason is I can get a seat as I find it hard standing up on a moving train.

 

[Wombat]

I don't see why I should be able to buy my way onto a commuter train that doesn't have room in standard class. Though I will admit that my comfort would almost certainly trump my principles if my route offered first class provision (which it doesn't).

 

[Bletchleyite]

i agree totally. It’s different people’s preferences at the end of the day.

I would like to apologise to the OP if my rather honest postings have caused irritation in any way however. Not the intention

It might also be the size of the person. A 5' skinny person has lots of room to move in a typical Standard seat. A 6' 4", 38" waisted person with "cyclist's legs" (me) doesn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that shouldn't be necessary. Where's the logic in having Anytime, Off-Peak and Advance Standard Class fares, but only Anytime and Advance First Class fares. No Off-Peak First Class. As explained earlier, in other countries walk on First Class fares are available at reasonable rates.

Some TOCs have introduced First Off Peaks, but to me they are still too high, often being more than twice the Standard fare.

Because they are unregulated, however, I think they give us an idea what the TOCs would like the Standard off-peak fares to be - divide the First Class ones by 1.6 (the usual European First Class multiplier and roughly the multiplier you get on UK Anytime fares) if you want an idea...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It might also be the size of the person. A 5' skinny person has lots of room to move in a typical Standard seat. A 6' 4", 38" waisted person with "cyclist's legs" (me) doesn't.

Ah. I am certainly skinny but quite tall as well. That’s probably why I dislike IC70 seats. Too short. Yet ironically I think IC Grammar seats are even worse.

But to be fair - people who have a problem can upgrade. And if they cannot afford to upgrade then they shouldn’t be pernickety because there is no other option!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a TGV service on high-speed lines for about 800 km! Even in Switzerland, which people usually quote as having extortionate train fares, Zurich to Geneva, similar distance to London to Manchester, costs 78 CHF 1st class with a Half Fare card, even in peak hours.

Swiss train fares are reasonable with a Halbtax, they are only outrageous at full fare. They also offer Advances (online only) these days which can be very good value - this will be part of their move to being a multiple unit railway.

 

[boxy321]

I commute on 4 trains (2 in 1st on VTWC, 1 in Business Zone on Chiltern if I can be bothered to walk to the end, and 1 in a WMT 172) and 3 buses per day. I see all ends of the spectrum.

I like my space and would use a car if I had to experience what I often see in standard. Google the Daily Mash video on the family forced to use the Megabus.

I like the papers, the lounges during delays, the coffee, the peace and the service. No scrums, huge seats and tables. I will only use 1st on long distance.

I have a PTE season with 1st class add-on. This is the most expensive ticket you can buy in the West Midlands but is a fraction of what people pay for seasons across the country. I have converted quite a few people who wouldn't dream of 1st until introduced, having had the same myself.

 

[The Ham]

I'm fortunate that heading towards London I can almost guarantee that there'll be plenty of standard seats to pick from and so there's less of an incentive to opt for first class (although a fair few do), even though it's only about 1 hour to London.

I've sometimes traveled in first class (mostly longer journeys), although when I've done the extra cost was fairly minimal (once was unofficially at the invite at a member of staff). However I can see why people would be prepared to pay the extra for the extra benefits, even on trains which don't give you free food and drinks.

 

[radamfi]

I pay full price for an annual 1st class ticket. Reason is I can get a seat as I find it hard standing up on a moving train.

Has anyone tried bribing fellow passengers into surrendering their seat? If simply getting a seat is the main reason for upgrading to First Class, paying for a seat in this manner might be cheaper, and you get to choose who you sit next to.

 

[greyman42]

I am afraid forum rules prevent me from replying to this silly, childish and immature post in the manner i would like - i will simply use these things:





Hard to support that view when many people seem to be getting tickets for child/OAP rates or on their student railcard.

It does not appear to be an efficient use of space, too much fresh air being carried.
I propose that when ECML is being run at the behest of DFT we hold an experiment in reducing the cost of first class until we achieve 40-50% occupancy.

What is the occupancy at the moment?

 

[Helvellyn]

Unless and until the railway manages to find a proper solution to chronic overcrowding, it should disappear and the space be given over to increased standard class provision. Greater good and all that!

If trains were over crowded from start to end of service that could be a valid argument. But the peaks are a small part of a twenty-four day and there is a lot of air (still) being carted around the national rail network. First Class Peak and Off Peak travel is something a number of people are prepared to pay for and as others have said it earns money for TOCs.

Having been fortunate to make some trips on VTEC and VTWC with some good Advance deals I've been surprised how busy it can be. Equally on SWR, West of England and Weymouth services can have a good First Class loading Off Peak.

Now with SWR switching to 2+2 seating in First Class to add more Standard capacity my personal view is that some Peak travellers will not want to pay the extra but many will stick with it for the guarantee of a seat. However, I personally think that Off Peak First Class travel will drop away because what are you getting for the extra money when you've lost the wider seat and extra legroom? Maybe that is the plan - next time round bidders can say to the DfT that First Class patronage has dropped off on the SW franchise and propose ripping it all out.