Your views: should we have first class on trains at all?

[DarloRich]

I think that first class provision should be reduced and more space given to standard class passengers. Frankly I would like to see it removed on the majority of trains and the quality of standard class accommodation improved to compensate.

Undoubtedly many of you will disagree with me but I would like to hear why. I would also like people to admit if they pay full price for their tickets, get a child or OAP fare or have access to a railcard. I think that price reduction plays a big part in the choices posters are able to make.

I don't have access to a railcard or, often, the luxury of being able to book well in advance or chose the time of my travel. That drives my choices and my views on first class.

I look forward to your views.

 

[bramling]

I think that first class provision should be reduced and more space given to standard class passengers. Frankly I would like to see it removed on the majority of trains and the quality of standard class accommodation improved to compensate.

Undoubtedly many of you will disagree with me but I would like to hear why. I would also like people to admit if they pay full price for their tickets, get a child or OAP fare or have access to a railcard. I think that price reduction plays a big part in the choices posters are able to make.

I don't have access to a railcard or, often, the luxury of being able to book well in advance or chose the time of my travel. That drives my choices and my views on first class.

I look forward to your views.

I don't really see the value in first class on commuter operations. It's increasingly the case that first class is little different to standard. Enforcement is vary variable, especially on very busy services or at some off-peak times (e.g. late evening). As such I don't bother, although I have done in the past.

I do see a value on Intercity services however, as it's simply the case that first class offers a greater likelihood of a more comfortable and more peaceful journey - especially Mondays to Fridays.

I have a 1st-class PRIV.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I don't really see the value in first class on commuter operations. It's increasingly the case that first class is little different to standard. Enforcement is vary variable, especially on very busy services or at some off-peak times (e.g. late evening). As such I don't bother, although I have done in the past.

I do see a value on Intercity services however, as it's simply the case that first class offers a greater likelihood of a more comfortable and more peaceful journey - especially Mondays to Fridays.

I have a 1st-class PRIV.

I would agree with you there, keep it for long distance intercity journeys. The first class area on most commuter trains now is not that large anyway.

 

[yorkie]

There is a purpose to and requirement for FC. It earns good monies for intercity TOCS

I am sure you will agree, DarloRich!

I would agree with you there, keep it for long distance intercity journeys. The first class area on most commuter trains now is not that large anyway.

Yes definitely. It is well worth keeping on longer distance services (and some longer distance operators could consider introducing it e.g. Manchester to Cardiff) but there is no justification for having identical seating with a '1' sticker, as implemented by train companies such as GTR.

I would also like people to admit if they pay full price for their tickets, get a child or OAP fare or have access to a railcard.

I am not sure what you want me to admit to but I have no form of discount card, but I do not ever go 1st class on a non-discounted "full" fare ticket (the "full" fare would be an Anytime 1st).

Do I need to admit I am a friend of VTEC staff? If so, do I incur your wrath?

 

[class387]

I would be fine with seeing first go with large improvements to standard, or even being replaced with a premium economy for a small supplement. In commuter services first should be abolished, as should all 2+2 seated first class.

 

[AM9]

I would be fine with seeing first go with large improvements to standard, or even being replaced with a premium economy for a small supplement. In commuter services first should be abolished, as should all 2+2 seated first class.

That's fine once you've defined what a 'commuter service' is.

 

[yorkie]

I'd imagine class387 was mostly referring to the former "Network SouthEast" services.

The term "commuter service" isn't the best, as arguably many commuters do use InterCity type long distance services for which there is a justification in having 1st class provision.

 

[BestWestern]

Unless and until the railway manages to find a proper solution to chronic overcrowding, it should disappear and the space be given over to increased standard class provision. Greater good and all that!

 

[DarloRich]

There is a purpose to and requirement for FC. It earns good monies for intercity TOCS

is there? Is there a purpose and requirement? if so what is it?

The purpose, to my mind, seems to be to allow people to not have to look upon the oiks as they travel in splendor supping their free teas and coffees, quaffing the free alcohol, munching on the free food and surfing the free internet while us mere plebs have to cram on next to the toilet breathing in anothers pooh fumes. It is said there are seats in standard class. Many of us never see them.

As for being a good earner it seems most of you get a discount. Perhaps I could improve the earning potential for the TOC by removing those discounts

Do I need to admit I am a friend of VTEC staff? If so, do I incur your wrath?

no wrath - just honesty. It is easier to be pro something when you get it at a discount.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I seem to remember a member of GTR staff saying he doesn’t think First Class is needed but it’s left for commercial reasons.

 

[class387]

That's fine once you've defined what a 'commuter service' is.

GTR, Southeastern, London Midland etc. were the ones I were thinking of, but yes yorkie was correct.

 

[aylesbury]

On commuter services no ,but on long distance yes I personally prefer first when I travel to Scotland as I appreciate breakfast ,dinner and as many cups of coffee as needed.The seats are worth paying for as last Friday I travelled standard to Glasgow and the seats are not comfortable for the distance travelled also they are beginning to look tatty (WCML) next year I will be back in first.Whats wrong with discounted fares for older people we have worked all our lives and contributed much needed tax so let us contribute to the economy by travelling around.Younger people and families can get discounts as well so its a fare (no pun intended) system that fills seats and enables enjoyment by the masses.Doubt wether Mr Rich will agree!

 

[xotGD]

I do find it odd that railcard discounts (and child discounts) apply for First Class.

One of my colleagues who is over 60 now travels First Class for work trips, using the railcard he has paid for himself, as it is cheaper than a regular standard class ticket.

 

[6Gman]

In the absence of (long distance) First Class isn't there a danger of modal shift away from rail to air or motoring for some custom?

Which is not what we wish to see.

[I have never travelled on a First Class ket ticin my life; not even a weekend upgrade. Mainly because of a (Standard) Priv holder the price difference would be huge. I have had a very occasional free upgrade for various reasons - overcrowding etc.]

 

[6Gman]

GTR, Southeastern, London Midland etc. were the ones I were thinking of, but yes yorkie was correct.

I can understand a Lichfield - Euston passenger, for example, wanting the (relative) comfort of Desiro First Class.

 

[Tio Terry]

My commuter service has not had First Class for many, many, years so it's not an option. It could never be policed on heavily overcrowded services anyway. When I was employed by BR I had free travel, First Class All Stations and By Ships (back to when BR owned Sealink) - for myself and my family. We made very good use of it, especially at weekends. But more and more restrictions were gradually brought in as to when you could use what form of free travel. This resulted in me being able to travel First Class, with my dog, on the 17:30 London Liverpool St to Norwich whilst the wife and children could only travel Standard. Didn't go down too well!

Now that I'm retired, when I travel Intercity, it's normally First Class and booked in advance.

 

[MG11]

Yes, but only on mid-long distance services, services where the experience is notably premium. Commuter services' First Class designation is un-deserved of the style associated with FC travel. The seating is very similar and there are no additional Hosts like on longer distance trains. Perhaps First Class on these lines could be renamed to Guaranteed Seating or another appropriate title.

First Class on non-commuter services is definitely a great asset to the railway. It offers increased space and comfort, premium waiting facilities at stations and a more attentive service for the customer. It is also very lucrative for the train companies (being a non-government regulated fare) and with upselling of products like higher priced hot meals (and a premium table price charged by TOCs that offer complimentary meals), it is a great way for TOCs to expand their sevice packages and attract a more discerning customer base. Railways have a unique selling point over coach travel, and that is the superior on-board services and First Class is certainly part of that.

 

[greyman42]

is there? Is there a purpose and requirement? if so what is it?

The purpose, to my mind, seems to be to allow people to not have to look upon the oiks as they travel in splendor supping their free teas and coffees, quaffing the free alcohol, munching on the free food and surfing the free internet while us mere plebs have to cram on next to the toilet breathing in anothers pooh fumes. It is said there are seats in standard class. Many of us never see them.

As for being a good earner it seems most of you get a discount. Perhaps I could improve the earning potential for the TOC by removing those discounts



no wrath - just honesty. It is easier to be pro something when you get it at a discount.

Nothing is free in first class, it has already been paid for in the price of the ticket. As for reducing first class, on some services such as VTEC, it is just about full leaving Kings Cross in the early evening and as such would leave a lot of first class paying passengers with no first class seat.

 

[Hadders]

I think 1st class should remain. Sometimes passengers want to pay a bit more for the additional comfort, or better ambience (often to do work), or even just for the guarantee of a seat. It’s also a good earner for train companies.

There’s little point in having 1st class on inner- suburban services but there should be a small provision on outer suburban and regional services. 1st class on 365s is probably about right. It allows passengers from places like Peterborough to have a bit more comfort and is important if passengers are making a longer journey by 1st class and the outer suburban part is a connection into an inter-city service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I dislike how many people want to get rid of first class. Just because they cannot afford it, doesn’t mean other people who can should suffer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can understand a Lichfield - Euston passenger, for example, wanting the (relative) comfort of Desiro First Class.

What, the lower comfort than Standard?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What, the lower comfort than Standard?

Matter of opinion. I like the recline and privacy of 350 first class.

 

[6Gman]

What, the lower comfort than Standard?

If the First is less comfortable why do I see staff travelling Pass head for it each time?

 

[lincolnshire]

I too agree that it either should go or be reduced to maybe one coach only on Virgin East Coast, as often in an evening if you look at the london trains there is hardly enough passengers for one coach.
Will be interesting if the on-board host,s went through the first class coaches looking at tickets and only those who had purchased a full price first class ticket received and refreshments, be interesting to what the rest think of first class then? as some only seem to go for the cheap ticket and refreshments.
Just think how much east coast could save instead of having all these staff just for a few people in first class.
Also remember that having first class on your service means you can dip in the first class pot of money along with the standard class pot of money for the route, that is one of the reasons Trans Pennine have first class.
Its a bit like the airlines first class, if it has just 2 people sat in first class and the rest of the plane is full of standard class passengers where does the cost of running the plane come from ? not the two first class passengers. The standard class passengers are I am sure are subsidizing the first class end of the train.
How many standing passengers do you get in first class? and the ones without seats do they go and sit in standard class?

 

[class387]

I can understand a Lichfield - Euston passenger, for example, wanting the (relative) comfort of Desiro First Class.

Definitely not on the 350/1/3s. Seats are worse than those in Standard. Perhaps when the 350/4s come it would be worth it.

The other point to consider is that the longer-distance LNR services are mainly aimed at the budget market, with passengers wanting a quicker and more luxurious service using VTWC, which would offer first class.

 

[robbeech]

I can see the capacity issues on some services but as has been pointed out a lot of revenue comes from first class passengers. I don’t know the figures but I would be interested to know if they scrapped first class on the ECML to use an extreme example how much revenue would be lost on the busier services, how many would just buy a standard class ticket and how many would abandon the railway. With this in mind any revenue to improve standard class would be reduced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the First is less comfortable why do I see staff travelling Pass head for it each time?

No idea.

 

[DanTrain]

I very much disagree with first class in most cases, it should just be converted into standard class in most cases. However, I think it would be a shame to lose it on some long distance services, for example KX - Inverness, where it becomes a feature in and of itself. Also, it helps compete with airlines I suspect for business travellers on long distance services. However, on trains such as anything by XC, Thameslink, MML meridians (maybe not HSTs), most WCML services (maybe not Glasgow or one of the Birminghams and Manchesters each) and some GWR services (but again not Penzance or Swansea trains.

This is obviously a bit arbitary, slightly randomly picked, not thought through and completely unworkable, but I think the idea of just having it where it serves a definite purpose, rather than just a default for the rich would be a much better solution in my opinion.

 

[amcluesent]

I find FC is like stepping into a Waitrose. You may pay more but there's very little chance of hearing raised voices, profanity, screaming kids, lagered-up yoofs etc. Basically you're buying some comforts, but mostly separation from people who regrettably don't know how to behave in public and you could well do without the aggro after a day in the office.

When I worked in London, commuted for 9 years, finally paying around £8k for FC season Peterborough-London.

On the reasonably frequent delays due to line damage, the FC lounge in KGX was a blessed relief with refreshments and seats away from the scrummage on the concourse. If ECML was off for the night, would race around to Liverpool St and change at Ely.

I very, very rarely didn't get an FC seat even the trains departing PBO in the 07:10 to 07:40 window. If the ECML was in a total mess north of Grantham and they'd declassified etc, I'd just get on the local stopping service. Departing KGX was no bother as regulars all had the phone apps which showed the platform at least 5 mins before it came up on the big board.

I maxed out the benefits using the 'all permitted route' rules to travel FC to Stansted airport, weekend outing to Cambridge etc.

 

[D365]

I dislike how many people want to get rid of first class. Just because they cannot afford it, doesn’t mean other people who can should suffer.

Just because you read that people are not fully in favour of first class, does not mean they “cannot afford it”, or that you will ‘suffer’.

Business travellers are generally cutting back on the use of first, for one.

When I worked in London, payed around £7k for FC season Peterborough-London

What sort of time was that? As far as I can remember, that’s not much more than a season ticket for HUN-LDN.