Why are French trains so poor?

[87015]

The German system only works for regional trains ( passenger) . On IC and ICE routes DB has very little rail based competion and a very unpunctual service.

And its said Balkanisation of what was DB - at the altar of competition - that has destroyed the system that was once so good into the fragmented, disjointed mess it is today by comparison. Its a familiar story.

 

[TRAX]

It works much better than the British system though.

 

[daikilo]

According to French media, SNCF has announced that traffic is up 7% this summer compared to last, and 15% for TER. Reasons cited are availability of reduced fares and additional Ouigo TGVs.

 

[Groningen]

With reduced fares traffic may be up, but with less earnings. France and Germany can not be compared. It is all SNCF in France, but in the Bremen, Hamburg, Hannover area you have Nordwestbahn and Metronom. In Koeln there is National Express and in the north there is the Nord-Ostsee-Bahn. There is (maybe) much more in the rest of Germany.

 

[TRAX]

There is much more. And from next year it will be the same in France.

 

[Ianno87]

The German system only works for regional trains ( passenger) . On IC and ICE routes DB has very little rail based competion and a very unpunctual service.

Long Distance buses have been giving ICE/IC routes a serious run for their money/kick up the backside over the last few years.

 

[Groningen]

Indeed!

A list in German can be found here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_deutscher_Eisenbahngesellschaften

 

[mmh]

With reduced fares traffic may be up, but with less earnings.

Not so, it is up too - by 4.2% in SNCF's last annual results

https://www.sncf.com/sncv1/ressources/reports/pr_sncf_groupe_fy2017_results_fev_27_2018_pm_4.00.pdf

Marked commercial and business performance in 2017, yet still insufficient given the
finances of SNCF Réseau, which show a structural imbalance. SNCF Réseau remains
heavily penalized by €46.6 billion in net debt, which rose a further €1.7 billion in
2017. SNCF Réseau’s structural debt increased by €2.1 billion over the same period.

Revenue totalled €33.5 billion, up +4.2% thanks to commercial momentum
that drove strong growth in passenger numbers and freight.

...

A revamped approach to passenger business to make rail travel and mass transit more
attractive. This paid off, with a steep rise in passenger numbers: +10% for TGV high-speed
rail (including +53% for OUIGO low-cost offers), +4.7% for TER regional rail, +3.3% for
Intercités conventional trains, +1.3% for Transilien commuter rail in the Paris region, +5.9% for
Keolis (revenue) and +48% for OUIBUS long-distance coach service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yeah, right. Agreed that the German model is better, but I fully expect the French to pay lip service to competition - just as they do with any other EU policy they don’t like. You only have to look at the barriers put in place to Open Access freight operators to see that.

I imagine the French long-distance model will be like Italy's - open competition on high speed lines (where there is capacity) but next to none otherwise.
Remember SNCF has a sizeable stake in Italo (plus high-speed Alstom trains), so they can hardly object to Trenitalia (or whoever) setting up in France.
The entry cost will be very high, however.
I suspect the Regions, if they decide to ditch SNCF, will initially try and go for Keolis/Transdev rather than non-French operators.

 

[Bungle965]

It has been announced that for the first time TGV Ouigo services will operate from Gare De Lyon, which means there will be a budget operator from the centre of Paris rather than using Marne La Vallee which is rather out of the way.
Sam

 

[mmh]

They already use Gare de l'Est and Montparnasse too. Interesting to see the Paris terminals being increasingly used

 

[AlexNL]

so they can hardly object to Trenitalia (or whoever) setting up in France.

Trenitalia already have the trains to do so, the Frecciarossa 1000 trains are capable of operating under all OHLE voltages used in Europe. Trenitalia are also gearing up to get the FR1000 fleet certified for operation in France.

 

[Bungle965]

They already use Gare de l'Est and Montparnasse too. Interesting to see the Paris terminals being increasingly used

Ah yes so they do, isn't Montparnasse a bit of a pain to get to or am I just imagining things there?
Sam

 

[30907]

Ah yes so they do, isn't Montparnasse a bit of a pain to get to or am I just imagining things there?
Sam

Maybe, but it's the terminus for the LGV Atlantique/Bretagne

 

[Giugiaro]

I fully expect the French to pay lip service to competition - just as they do with any other EU policy they don’t like.

According to the Portuguese Minister of Planning and Infrastructure, a Contract of Public Service can protect a particular company from (being bullied by) competition, and the country's regulatory institution for railway operations has the freedom to block access for other companies into sections where such public contracts have been applied, even after 2019/2020.

I wonder who pushed for such a convenient asterisk...

 

[TRAX]

I imagine the French long-distance model will be like Italy's - open competition on high speed lines (where there is capacity) but next to none otherwise

It’s the opposite. No competition planned on high speed lines, only on the regional network.

Trenitalia already have the trains to do so, the Frecciarossa 1000 trains are capable of operating under all OHLE voltages used in Europe. Trenitalia are also gearing up to get the FR1000 fleet certified for operation in France.

And Trenitalia already runs trains in France via Thello.

 

[squizzler]

According to French media, SNCF has announced that traffic is up 7% this summer compared to last, and 15% for TER. Reasons cited are availability of reduced fares and additional Ouigo TGVs.

That's a pretty impressive growth in the teeth of a strike. I wonder what the growth would have been if the service was running normally? Or is this your typical Gallic contrarianism - the public making more effort to support the trains in defiance of the strikes?

Regarding the quality of TER system, it must depend on the region. I recently travelled through St Malo to Rennes and the line, electrified a decade or so back, now enjoys double decker Bombardier units (my current avatar), new stations under construction and a major expansion of Rennes station underway. So big things are happening.

In terms of the OP's assertion the trains are poor in France, I would argue the standout disappointment are actually the Paris termini, which are generally present pretty poor gateways to their mighty systems. I used Gare de Lyon this summer and it was dreadful.

 

[duesselmartin]

With reduced fares traffic may be up, but with less earnings. France and Germany can not be compared. It is all SNCF in France, but in the Bremen, Hamburg, Hannover area you have Nordwestbahn and Metronom. In Koeln there is National Express and in the north there is the Nord-Ostsee-Bahn. There is (maybe) much more in the rest of Germany.

Köln also has Vias and soon Abellio. Long distance is Flixtrain and Thalys.

 

[TRAX]

Regarding the quality of TER system, it must depend on the region.

Finally someone understands. Absolutely, the regions decide of everything. Even which rolling stock to use.

 

[InterCity:125]

It has been announced that for the first time TGV Ouigo services will operate from Gare De Lyon, which means there will be a budget operator from the centre of Paris rather than using Marne La Vallee which is rather out of the way.

That will make ouigo services a lot more usable. There is a tgv to Marne la vallee but operating from the centre makes it easier to access.

 

[daikilo]

Finally someone understands. Absolutely, the regions decide of everything. Even which rolling stock to use.

This might be the theory, but earlier this year about half the regions were saying they were disatisfied with what they could get and supported competition.

 

[TRAX]

Indeed. A few have manifested interest in competition and are ready for 2019.

 

[squizzler]

Presumably the willingness of regions to invest in their rail systems, as I have witnessed n a big way in Brittany, has been greatly increased by the knowledge that sunk investment isn't going to be hostage to whatever SNCF's feels like charging as operating fees.

 

[daikilo]

Presumably the willingness of regions to invest in their rail systems, as I have witnessed n a big way in Brittany, has been greatly increased by the knowledge that sunk investment isn't going to be hostage to whatever SNCF's feels like charging as operating fees.

I believe this is actually part of the problem, as it seems they have no say in track access/maintenance charges, which have sometimes risen significantly after the region has committed to new trains. I haven't yet understood if/how privatisation will resolve this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It’s the opposite. No competition planned on high speed lines, only on the regional network.
And Trenitalia already runs trains in France via Thello.

I appreciate you know more about French railways than I do.
But this statement (on the recent reforms after approval by the French parliament) seems to presage competition on high speed lines from 2020:

SNCF’s monopoly of the domestic passenger rail market is to be phased out, with the introduction of open access competition on core routes from 2020 and competitive tendering of regional operating contracts from 2023

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...st[]=sncf&sword_list[]=competition&no_cache=1

Thello is essentially a limited cross-border operation and is not a direct competitor of SNCF's domestic services, much like the DB operation out of Paris Est.

 

[NicholasNCE]

Interesting debate! As someone who has worked for the french railways, and has good knowledge of the British system, I would agree in some ways with the OP. The flagship long-distance high-speed are the pride and joy of SNCF Mobilités, and as such are second to none in Europe on many levels (except for the restaurant car maybe...). Suburban rail in the Paris area isn't too bad, and considering the price paid by users, is on par with what is available in the south-east of England.

Where french rail is not so great is on regional services, clock-face timetables and high frequencies are still a distant dream on many lines that could justify it, the operating hours aren't that great (most services end around 2000), and to be honest services aren't all that reliable. And certainly if you live in even a slightly rural area you can't count on the railways for your daily transport needs. Most passengers on such lines are captive customers who don't have the choice.

It’s the opposite. No competition planned on high speed lines, only on the regional network.

Open access competition on the french high speed network is absolutely on the cards, and Trenitalia/Thello is widely expected to be the first contender.

Finally someone understands. Absolutely, the regions decide of everything. Even which rolling stock to use.

At the moment they have limited choices, and many are influenced or imposed by SNCF Mobilités. For example rolling stock has to ordered from the limited number of current frame contracts. Obviously once the regions finally get to choose freely their contractor this will change, for the better!

 

[TRAX]

I appreciate you know more about French railways than I do.
But this statement (on the recent reforms after approval by the French parliament) seems to presage competition on high speed lines from 2020:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...st[]=sncf&sword_list[]=competition&no_cache=1

This does not mention high speed rail in any way.

This is the latest infograph about competition in France posted two days ago by SNCF Réseau on Twitter. This also doesn’t mention high speed rail.

 

[NicholasNCE]

Marché "non conventionné" refers to all non-subsidised services, currently 99% of which are TGVs, the rest being the auto-train services, the odd Intercités 100% Eco services and obviously charters...
CQFD as we say in french

 

[daikilo]

This does not mention high speed rail in any way.

This is the latest infograph about competition in France posted two days ago by SNCF Réseau on Twitter. This also doesn’t mention high speed rail.
View attachment 52325

In the article they use the term "core routes", and I think in the infographic you will find that the 2020 date for "non-conventionné" both actually refer to the LGVs, though core probably includes TGV off the LGVs. Core may include some Intercité that are better than TET.

 

[daikilo]

Marché "non conventionné" refers to all non-subsidised services, currently 99% of which are TGVs, the rest being the auto-train services, the odd Intercités 100% Eco services and obviously charters...
CQFD as we say in french

I think the correct translation of "non-conventionné" is "not subject to agreement/convention (with other bodies)". It is not obligatory that they are/will be subsidised and likewise we are told that some TGV routes are actually loss-making (hence subsidised) and may stay that way.