Why are French trains so poor?

[cactustwirly]

Just been traveling on a few TER and Intercites trains around the Loire valley region.
The TER trains are good but a little overpriced and infrequent, I suspect with more keenly priced tickets and a more frequent service then it would be a lot more attractive service.

The Intercites is very good value compared to the TGV, however it was infrequent (no trains between 9am and 4pm) and the interior was very dated.
If they refurbished the carriages like how the Austrian Eurofimas were done, and ran a few more services in the day, they could steal a lot of traffic from the cars and coaches.

My point being that France is one of the most developed countries in Europe, but in terms of railways the Czech and even the Hungarian railways are better.

 

[TRAX]

I'm not even going to try answering that.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As a starting point consider some statistics. The population of France is 102% that of the UK. The land area of France is 222% that of the UK. Compared to the UK France has much larger areas of emptiness meaning the demand for rail services away from their cities is much less than here. Then also consider that France is centralised broadly as much as the UK meaning a heavy demand for services to/from Paris. The result is a fine TGV network radiating from Paris with few orbital routes, decent suburban services around the cities and largest towns, and not much else. Intercites are the "not much else" and absorb lots of subsidy. It's a shame more people in this country, especially politicians and journalists, haven't shared your experience. If they had they might stop holding up France as such a great example of a national railway network. That accolade belongs elsewhere.

 

[daikilo]

TER passenger revenue is said to only cover 25-35% of operating costs in the Occitanie region, and I am guessing it will be similar in others.

Intercité is being replaced by the TETs which are new, part low-floor MUs. Whether frequencies improve and/or losses fall remains to be seen.

I tend to agree with your summary, but I am not convinced the government will actually do much.

 

[AlexNL]

Intercité is being replaced by the TETs which are new, part low-floor MUs. Whether frequencies improve and/or losses fall remains to be seen.

With that, responsibilities for these services are transferred from the central government to the regions.

I expect that the number of cross country Intercités services will decrease, with services being curtailed to the region's boundaries or maybe the first major city in the neighbouring region.

With the upcoming liberalisation of domestic rail, it's likely that other operators (such as Arriva) will take over from SNCF.

 

[cactustwirly]

As a starting point consider some statistics. The population of France is 102% that of the UK. The land area of France is 222% that of the UK. Compared to the UK France has much larger areas of emptiness meaning the demand for rail services away from their cities is much less than here. Then also consider that France is centralised broadly as much as the UK meaning a heavy demand for services to/from Paris. The result is a fine TGV network radiating from Paris with few orbital routes, decent suburban services around the cities and largest towns, and not much else. Intercites are the "not much else" and absorb lots of subsidy. It's a shame more people in this country, especially politicians and journalists, haven't shared your experience. If they had they might stop holding up France as such a great example of a national railway network. That accolade belongs elsewhere.

I realise that, but the main problem is frequency.
The low frequency puts off a lot of people, so if the stations had at least an hourly service then I'm convinced a lot more people would use it.

The Intercites I used was Paris - Tours, which is hardly the middle of nowhere.
What I'm suggesting is that the Intercites should be used as a low cost version of the TGV (since the time difference isn't that great) to tempt people who would normally drive or take Flixbus.
However the carriages need to be smart and the trains need to run at attractive times in order to provide this.

 

[cactustwirly]

With that, responsibilities for these services are transferred from the central government to the regions.

I expect that the number of cross country Intercités services will decrease, with services being curtailed to the region's boundaries or maybe the first major city in the neighbouring region.

With the upcoming liberalisation of domestic rail, it's likely that other operators (such as Arriva) will take over from SNCF.

Which can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned, whilst Arriva are far from perfect, I reckon they could be a lot better than SNCF, who appear to have given up on non TGV services.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I realise that, but the main problem is frequency.
The low frequency puts off a lot of people, so if the stations had at least an hourly service then I'm convinced a lot more people would use it.

The Intercites I used was Paris - Tours, which is hardly the middle of nowhere.
What I'm suggesting is that the Intercites should be used as a low cost version of the TGV (since the time difference isn't that great) to tempt people who would normally drive or take Flixbus.
However the carriages need to be smart and the trains need to run at attractive times in order to provide this.

Tours is a somewhat anomalous place on the French network. The LGV Atlantique by-passes the town, in spite of its size, but does include a railhead stop at neaby St Pierre des Corps. Much of the time the quickest connection from Paris is to SPdC with a (shock horror) bus connection to Tours. The overall journey is only marginally slower than the few TGVs that actually serve Tours while the Intercites are considerably slower. There aren't very many comparable places though Orleans is another. As such there is no putative sub-TGV network worth spending huge sums of money to develop. Could it be your interest in travelling by Intercites was more to do with them currently being loco-hauled? Note the coaching stock is the Corail type, a contemporary of our Mk3, and now approaching the end of its viable lifespan. You should also bear in mind that French people are rather proud of the TGV and are more than happy to use it. Those preferring cheapness over speed will mostly find the road-based alternatives perfectly satisfactory.

 

[cactustwirly]

Tours is a somewhat anomalous place on the French network. The LGV Atlantique by-passes the town, in spite of its size, but does include a railhead stop at neaby St Pierre des Corps. Much of the time the quickest connection from Paris is to SPdC with a (shock horror) bus connection to Tours. The overall journey is only marginally slower than the few TGVs that actually serve Tours while the Intercites are considerably slower. There aren't very many comparable places though Orleans is another. As such there is no putative sub-TGV network worth spending huge sums of money to develop. Could it be your interest in travelling by Intercites was more to do with them currently being loco-hauled? Note the coaching stock is the Corail type, a contemporary of our Mk3, and now approaching the end of its viable lifespan. You should also bear in mind that French people are rather proud of the TGV and are more than happy to use it. Those preferring cheapness over speed will mostly find the road-based alternatives perfectly satisfactory.

I was traveling to Blois so the TGV wasn't an option and I thought the Intercites would be better than the TER.
Yes I was going for the LHCS, but I was thinking about how to improve the existing service.
Actually it is only about 30 minutes slower, which in the grand scheme of things isn't that much.
The Flixbus service is over 3 hours, so actually the Intercites is a better option, if only the interior wasn't so tired and dated, and the trains ran at convenient times.

 

[deltic]

Because SNCF is a financial basket case that has no money to spend on its non-TGV network leading to poor maintenance and Government commissioning reports suggesting large parts of the network should be closed.

 

[TRAX]

It's funny you guys judge the quality of operation of SNCF basing your opinion on the TER services. All the TER-related (train and coach) decisions are made by regions, with SNCF only providing rolling stock and drivers (basically).

 

[30907]

I was traveling to Blois so the TGV wasn't an option and I thought the Intercites would be better than the TER.
Yes I was going for the LHCS, but I was thinking about how to improve the existing service.
Actually it is only about 30 minutes slower, which in the grand scheme of things isn't that much.
The Flixbus service is over 3 hours, so actually the Intercites is a better option, if only the interior wasn't so tired and dated, and the trains ran at convenient times.

The Paris-Tours Intercités seems to have the classic French "morning, noon and evening" service (ignoring the connections at Orleans, which are haphazard, presumably because the Region doesn't regard them as priority - does this perchance remind you of anywhere else?), but a start to stop speed of 120km/h is pretty impressive (ISTR the linespeed is in part 200km/h). The problem is that the service isn't much use for anywhere except Blois and Amboise, as Orleans has its own Intercités and Tours has TGVs.
In general I think the Regions are mostly doing a decent job on routes that have some potential (the less said about the Massif Central the better though) and some of them manage to cooperate across boundaries.

 

[CC 72100]

Because SNCF is a financial basket case that has no money to spend on its non-TGV network leading to poor maintenance and Government commissioning reports suggesting large parts of the network should be closed.

This.

The one-word answer is "Politics". With the focus and money ploughed into the TGV lines, if you're not lucky enough to be on the high-speed line, then the service is what the average British rail user would call, sporadic.

And this is why anyone who puts France on a podium as the example of a railway to aspire to based on the TGV network alone should go and experience it first.

The fact that the SNCF is trying to wash its hands of many Intercités services and put the ball firmly in the region's court shows that they (and by extension central government) have little interest in anything that isn't TGV.

 

[TRAX]

They’ve always mainly been concerned with TGV as, like as said above, even for TER they are just an operator. The regions take the decisions, and even own the rolling stock. The State has always been involved in the TET/Intercités business, again SNCF being submitted to others’ decisions.
So, nothing new here. Just the usual SNCF-bashing from the country which put buses on rails and called them ‘trains’, gets new trains to give them back to the owner a few years later, only just discovered bimode trains, still can’t manage to electrify its mainlines, and when finally does thinks it needs 500-ton gantries to support the OHLE.

 

[cactustwirly]

They’ve always mainly been concerned with TGV as, like as said above, even for TER they are just an operator. The regions take the decisions, and even own the rolling stock. The State has always been involved in the TET/Intercités business, again SNCF being submitted to others’ decisions.
So, nothing new here. Just the usual SNCF-bashing from the country which put buses on rails and called them ‘trains’, gets new trains to give them back to the owner a few years later, still can’t manage to electrify its mainlines, and when finally does thinks it needs 500-ton gantries to support the OHLE.

But at least the UK bothers to operate it's trains to a usuable frequency, and actually bothers to refurbish it's rolling stock.
Whilst I admit our railways aren't perfect, for an everyday passengers point of view, the UKs railways are definitely superior.
That said they both are poor compared to the German/Austrian railways

 

[87015]

Who’s to declare it not a useable frequency? It’s - as it always has been - in line with French culture which has much more limited daytime intercity travel on secondary routes (which is what anything non-TGV now is, basically). The “everyday passenger” for an hourly IC Paris-Tours simply isn’t there as it’s not how France works. Routes off Lyon did/does have an hourly IC/TER service and it’s absolutely empty during the day.

The fact Corail stock is in such a decent state this far into its life shows how far ahead of Mk3s it was when built.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But at least the UK bothers to operate it's trains to a usuable frequency, and actually bothers to refurbish it's rolling stock.
Whilst I admit our railways aren't perfect, for an everyday passengers point of view, the UKs railways are definitely superior.
That said they both are poor compared to the German/Austrian railways

I don't know, the UK system has advantages over those as well, as well as disadvantages. We mostly operate clockface timetables like they do these days, typically at rather higher frequencies, though we aren't as good with connections. We have off-peak walk-up fares, they don't.

 

[daikilo]

They’ve always mainly been concerned with TGV as, like as said above, even for TER they are just an operator. The regions take the decisions, and even own the rolling stock. The State has always been involved in the TET/Intercités business, again SNCF being submitted to others’ decisions.
So, nothing new here. Just the usual SNCF-bashing from the country which put buses on rails and called them ‘trains’, gets new trains to give them back to the owner a few years later, still can’t manage to electrify its mainlines, and when finally does thinks it needs 500-ton gantries to support the OHLE.

This is a bit exaerated as there were some very good trains before the TGVs were invented and built! The term TET (trains d'equilibre du territoire) was invented by the gouvernment to replace the remaining intercités but network funding was never formally committed. Whether a system of TOCs as in the UK can revive it remains to be seen (and even tried).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'd like to hear something about the service on the Paris-Troyes-Belfort-Mulhouse line, which is now operated by Alstom bi-modes.
It was once an important inter city line carrying the TEE Arbalète (Paris-Basel-Zurich), as well as the main domestic services for Belfort and Mulhouse.
It does seem to be a line where SNCF is trying to improve what is now, after the growth of the LGV network, a secondary main line.
It is now essentially an hourly regional service over the northern part of the line, but truncates at different points on the southern route (some going to Dijon).
About 5 trains run the full length between Paris and Mulhouse, taking about 4.5 hours (TGVs take less than 3 hours).
The 491km line is electric from Paris Est for 38km, and again for the last 50km from Belfort to Mulhouse.
Electrification is in progress to Troyes (168km from Paris), so that would make 45% of the route electric.
Similar bi-modes are also used on the Nantes-Bordeaux regional route, but services are sparse and only 30% of the route is electric.
Incidentally, we have yet to see our bi-modes switch twice en route, like these Alstom Coradia Liner units do.

 

[TRAX]

But at least the UK bothers to operate it's trains to a usuable frequency, and actually bothers to refurbish it's rolling stock.
Whilst I admit our railways aren't perfect, for an everyday passengers point of view, the UKs railways are definitely superior.
That said they both are poor compared to the German/Austrian railways

The fact that you claim french rolling stock isn't refurbished shows just how little you know about french trains.

Who’s to declare it not a useable frequency? It’s - as it always has been - in line with French culture which has much more limited daytime intercity travel on secondary routes (which is what anything non-TGV now is, basically). The “everyday passenger” for an hourly IC Paris-Tours simply isn’t there as it’s not how France works. Routes off Lyon did/does have an hourly IC/TER service and it’s absolutely empty during the day.

The fact Corail stock is in such a decent state this far into its life shows how far ahead of Mk3s it was when built.

This. Thank you.

This is a bit exaerated as there were some very good trains before the TGVs were invented and built! The term TET (trains d'equilibre du territoire) was invented by the gouvernment to replace the remaining intercités but network funding was never formally committed. Whether a system of TOCs as in the UK can revive it remains to be seen (and even tried).

France will base its competition model on the German system (the one that actually works), not the British one.

 

[Groningen]

In my eyes the TGV is the pride and joy of the SNCF. Other railwayservices almost have gone. Almost no nighttrains anymore. In the past there was a nighttrain to Hamburg, Vienna/Budapest, Milano and Madrid. Try to go from Brussel/Strasbourg/Lyon/Bordeaux to Paris.

Not using TGV:
Brussel 9.12 Lille 10.51 - 11.02 Paris Nord 14.40 (change in Tournai, Amiens and Creil)
Strasbourg 13.51 Mulhouse 14.44 - 15.18 Paris Est 19.47
Lyon 9.16 Dijon 11.16 - 11.47 Paris Est 15.46
Bordeaux 6.16 - Paris Montparnasse 17.53 (4 changes)

Only nighttrains and stoppingservices are locomotive pulled or pushed (in my eyes).

 

[Segedunum]

I've user TER services across the South of France, as well as Bordeaux and Lyon, and it's clear that frequency is very much concentrated on large population density.

The line between Cannes and Ventimiglia gets a well used 2tph, ramping up to 4tph between Nice and Monaco in the peaks. Nice to Marseille seems to get a fair frequency for its loadings as well. Stock all fairly decent.

Avignon to Carpentras is a recently reopened line doing reasonably well on a decent frequency. Again, connecting smaller communities to a large city.

Bordeaux has a network of infrequent TER services radiating but this seems proportional to loadings. Point de Grave gets a very limited service for example but alas I was the only passenger going that far.

Arcachon however gets 1-2tph and it's popular because it's a well populated route. This ramps up to 4tph in the rush hour.

If anything, France seems quite good compared to Spain where a station may only get 1tpd, and where anything and everything has compulsory reservations slapped on! That said, the AVE product is excellent, and clearly popular, similar to France and the TGV.

 

[TRAX]

In my eyes the TGV is the pride and joy of the SNCF. Other railwayservices almost have gone. Almost no nighttrains anymore. In the past there was a nighttrain to Hamburg, Vienna/Budapest, Milano and Madrid. Try to go from Brussel/Strasbourg/Lyon/Bordeaux to Paris.

Not using TGV:
Brussel 9.12 Lille 10.51 - 11.02 Paris Nord 14.40 (change in Tournai, Amiens and Creil)
Strasbourg 13.51 Mulhouse 14.44 - 15.18 Paris Est 19.47
Lyon 9.16 Dijon 11.16 - 11.47 Paris Est 15.46
Bordeaux 6.16 - Paris Montparnasse 17.53 (4 changes)

I've user TER services across the South of France, as well as Bordeaux and Lyon, and it's clear that frequency is very much concentrated on large population density.

The line between Cannes and Ventimiglia gets a well used 2tph, ramping up to 4tph between Nice and Monaco in the peaks. Nice to Marseille seems to get a fair frequency for its loadings as well. Stock all fairly decent.

Avignon to Carpentras is a recently reopened line doing reasonably well on a decent frequency. Again, connecting smaller communities to a large city.

Bordeaux has a network of infrequent TER services radiating but this seems proportional to loadings. Point de Grave gets a very limited service for example but alas I was the only passenger going that far.

Arcachon however gets 1-2tph and it's popular because it's a well populated route. This ramps up to 4tph in the rush hour.

If anything, France seems quite good compared to Spain where a station may only get 1tpd, and where anything and everything has compulsory reservations slapped on! That said, the AVE product is excellent, and clearly popular, similar to France and the TGV.

You're comparing two completely different countries and that makes no sense. These posts answer you quite nicely about service frequency:

As a starting point consider some statistics. The population of France is 102% that of the UK. The land area of France is 222% that of the UK. Compared to the UK France has much larger areas of emptiness meaning the demand for rail services away from their cities is much less than here. Then also consider that France is centralised broadly as much as the UK meaning a heavy demand for services to/from Paris. The result is a fine TGV network radiating from Paris with few orbital routes, decent suburban services around the cities and largest towns, and not much else. Intercites are the "not much else" and absorb lots of subsidy.

Who’s to declare it not a useable frequency? It’s - as it always has been - in line with French culture which has much more limited daytime intercity travel on secondary routes (which is what anything non-TGV now is, basically). The “everyday passenger” for an hourly IC Paris-Tours simply isn’t there as it’s not how France works. Routes off Lyon did/does have an hourly IC/TER service and it’s absolutely empty during the day.

----

Only nighttrains and stoppingservices are locomotive pulled or pushed (in my eyes).

Nope, most regional service is done using MUs (a lot of them bimode since 2004 ), a lot of these being stopping services.

 

[Bungle965]

Almost no nighttrains anymore

I recently used one of their night services, now called intercités de nuit rather than (in my eyes) the much nicer sounding Lunéa. The amount that SNCF have cut away at it I was expecting it to be rather quiet towards Portbou and Latour De Carol. However the service was rather busy with a large group of Scouts using the train to take them to the South as well as various other travellers. I remember recently looking at the figures and that despite the rather poor network the trend was that more people were using the night services.
Sam

 

[Groningen]

January 2016 i had 2 nighttrains from Paris to Andorra and Nice. Both trains departed from Austerlitz. I see in the german travelplanner at 21.53 a combined train to Port Bou, Albi and Latour de Carol (connection to Andorra). Also sometimes Toulouse and Rodez. I see no nighttrain to Nice from Paris (in the past also 1 from Luxembourg).

 

[mmh]

In my eyes the TGV is the pride and joy of the SNCF. Other railwayservices almost have gone. Almost no nighttrains anymore. In the past there was a nighttrain to Hamburg, Vienna/Budapest, Milano and Madrid. Try to go from Brussel/Strasbourg/Lyon/Bordeaux to Paris.

Not using TGV:
Brussel 9.12 Lille 10.51 - 11.02 Paris Nord 14.40 (change in Tournai, Amiens and Creil)
Strasbourg 13.51 Mulhouse 14.44 - 15.18 Paris Est 19.47
Lyon 9.16 Dijon 11.16 - 11.47 Paris Est 15.46
Bordeaux 6.16 - Paris Montparnasse 17.53 (4 changes)

If you're going from Strasbourg, Lyon or Bordeaux to Paris why wouldn't you use TGV? Your Bordeaux example without TGV is a bit off, avoiding TGV there is: Bordeaux 06:16 Limoges 08:36 - 08:59 Paris Austerlitz 12:23.

If the goal is to save money, all of them have Ouigo services - for example Bordeaux 11:58 Paris Montparnasse 14:26, only 16 Euro next Wednesday

 

[cactustwirly]

If you're going from Strasbourg, Lyon or Bordeaux to Paris why wouldn't you use TGV? Your Bordeaux example without TGV is a bit off, avoiding TGV there is: Bordeaux 06:16 Limoges 08:36 - 08:59 Paris Austerlitz 12:23.

If the goal is to save money, all of them have Ouigo services - for example Bordeaux 11:58 Paris Montparnasse 14:26, only 16 Euro next Wednesday

The Intercites "100% Eco" is even cheaper, I believe it's only €10

 

[Groningen]

My problem is that if i use Interrail i have not a 100 % travelplan. Everything was on short notice.

 

[43096]

France will base its competition model on the German system (the one that actually works), not the British one.

Yeah, right. Agreed that the German model is better, but I fully expect the French to pay lip service to competition - just as they do with any other EU policy they don’t like. You only have to look at the barriers put in place to Open Access freight operators to see that.

 

[duesselmartin]

The German system only works for regional trains ( passenger) . On IC and ICE routes DB has very little rail based competion and a very unpunctual service.