Electrify more train lines between cities to cut carbon and congestion

[SWT Driver]

Electrify more lines between cities to cut carbon and congestion - ATOC

Proposals to electrify up to 400 miles of railways, to fill in the network’s ‘missing links’ and provide better connections between some of the UK’s biggest cities are set out today by train companies.

Yet another pie in the sky idea or pipedream.... :roll:

Full details here: http://www.atoc-comms.org/dynamic/a...s-between-cities-to-cut-carbon-and-congestion

 

[SquirrelJunction]

I say:

Get the already announced London to Swansea/Bristol started first, get it building to time and thenfocus on a new plan.

So many plans, not enough resources.....

 

[asylumxl]

I find it amusing that they want to electrify the GWML before the MML.

It's purely political, it's been shown by many independent companies and organisations there is more gain to be made from electrifying the MML.

 

[Dai.]

I think that they should start on the GWML and then focus on the other places, I think it's a good plan that we should be taking action against climate change, we just don't want to take on too much at one time.

 

[O L Leigh]

The GWML electrification will deliver greater benefits in a shorter timescale. You wouldn't have to wire very many miles to drastically reduce the number of Turbo operated services. Getting out through Reading to Oxford and Newbury would be a good start with the wires eventually going on to Bristol would see off quite a few services currently in the hands of diesel traction.

While further wiring of the MML is certainly desirable, you're going to have to do the whole lot in order to make any impact at all.

O L Leigh

 

[asylumxl]

True. But having said that, work is soon underway for smoothing the MMLs curves.

 

[The Planner]

Where ??

 

[43021HST]

They keep saying that diesel trains pollute more but what about the power stations that generate the eletricity wont they create more pollution?

 

[90019]

They keep saying that diesel trains pollute more but what about the power stations that generate the eletricity wont they create more pollution?

Indeed.
The emissions are only being moved from the train to the power station.

People seem to conveniently forget the fact that the electricity has to come from somewhere, and there are still many coal, oil and gas-fired power stations in the UK.

 

[generalvegitable]

what about the power stations that generate the eletricity wont they create more pollution?

I think that the idea is to electrify early but in stages so that when we convert all our power stations to the environmentally friendly ones so we don't have to do a massive wave of electrification across the network before we run out of fossil fuels so it is cheaper for us

 

[90019]

so that when we convert all our power stations to the environmentally friendly ones

Unfortunately this is going to be easier said than done.

Hopefully they will manage to crack the difficulties of nuclear fusion soon, though.

 

[Old Timer]

With predicted power cuts from 2014 as we close the older power stations because of the Carbon Emissions requirements from the EU, it seems rather an own goal to suddenly plan to increase the demand for electricity just when we are drastically reducing available supplies.

WE are in this situation because Labour dithered and refused to accept there was an issue, and Brown refused to release the money. Now it is too late to bring the required supply levels on-stream, so already planning is taking place as to how the power cuts will be phased in.

If the Conservatives cut back on Electrification they will be vilified by the Lib-Dem Opposition, and what Labour MPs there will be left, as being anti-Green. If they go ahead then they will be criticised for having to bring in power cuts.

Truly a "no-win" situation that will have all the usual suspects of the Left drearily screeching their tiresome twoddle about Conservative cuts, etc.

There is a school of thought that says this is yet another Electoral timebomb being planted by Labour as they go into annilhilation, having realised about 2005 that they will never see power again.

 

[Aictos]

Indeed.
The emissions are only being moved from the train to the power station.

People seem to conveniently forget the fact that the electricity has to come from somewhere, and there are still many coal, oil and gas-fired power stations in the UK.

That's easy, convert them to Nuke power or use alternative forms of creating power from wind to waves - we're a island, water and wind is all around us, it's mind boggling that we don't use what Mother Nature has given us.

 

[philjo]

We do import a lot of our current demand for electricity from France, where they use Nuclear stations for a large proportion of their generating capacity.

It is probably more efficient generatiing power en masse despite losses during transmission.
Plus we won't have to breathe in the diesel fumes at the stations!
There is a lingering "aroma" on the platforms at Potters Bar for several minutes after a GC HST goes through!
Think about the ambeince of the EMT platforms at St Pancras compared to the rest of the station!

 

[90019]

That's easy, convert them to Nuke power or use alternative forms of creating power from wind to waves - we're a island, water and wind is all around us, it's mind boggling that we don't use what Mother Nature has given us.

Exactly.

The problem lies with the opposition to nuclear. So many people argue against it without knowing much about it. The constant bringing up of Chernobyl and use of it as the reason why nuclear is bad is just getting tedious.

 

[Drsatan]

I read somewhere that 8% of Britain's energy needs could be catered for by building a tidal barrage across the estuary of the River Severn. Such a barrage would also provide a fixed link between the West Country and Wales, with a road, and hopefully a railway running along.

The only problem is that the eco-mentalist brigade don't like it since it will deprive birds of their natural habitat. But what would you rather have: constant power blackouts or a co2 free energy supply (excluding the co2 produced by construction of the barrage)

 

[generalvegitable]

The constant bringing up of Chernobyl and use of it as the reason why nuclear is bad is just getting tedious.

well chernobyl was a ticking time bomb, when it was built the design of it was already outmoded on saftey grounds, also look at windscale sorry sellafield, that was in a simalar situation to chernobyl but because of the safer design it was nowhere near as bad as chernobyl, all I can say is roll on fusion!
edit:

The only problem is that the eco-mentalist brigade don't like it since it will deprive birds of their natural habitat. But what would you rather have: constant power blackouts or a co2 free energy supply (excluding the co2 produced by construction of the barrage)

personally I would rather have co2 free power, and there was a thing in the 70's called the duck, it was a tidal energy generator, it would have been so useful around our coastline because behind it it leaves the water absolutely smooth behind it, we would have most of our power from them if the government of the time didn't muck up their calculations

 

[Swift-Deere]

Which ever power source is cheapest should be used not have the raving left wing eco hippies decide things because of "global warming"!!!

 

[O L Leigh]

The thing with an electrified railway is that we have a choice how we power the trains. Without electrification we will soon have no choice at all.

While generating power from sulphur-rich coal imported from overseas is questionable, the energy usage and waste footprint of most electric trains (EMU's) is less than that for most diesel trains (DMU's). You need two Cl150's to provide anywhere near the same capacity as a Cl315 or Cl455, giving a total empty train weight somewhere in the region of one third greater than the electric equivalent. You have also got four engines and transmissions to fuel and maintain, which means more waste oil and consumable parts in addition to the lubricants and other parts that both the electric and diesel train would need. When fossil fuels finally do run out (which probably won't be much longer), how will these trains be run? Even allowing for the currently polluting energy generation technology currently in use, I would dearly love to see some hard facts that prove that an electric train is more polluting per passenger mile than a diesel.

There certainly are questions over electricity generation that need to be addressed, but these need to be addressed anyway. The question of whether or not we electrify the network really should be considered on merit.

O L Leigh

 

[asylumxl]

Where ??

I may have gone mad, but I'm sure I read somewhere that Network Rail were intending to start working on the curve at Wellingborough pretty soon (next year maybe)?

I think I may just be mad. I think it was in Route Plan 19.

 

[Geezertronic]

Exactly.

The problem lies with the opposition to nuclear. So many people argue against it without knowing much about it. The constant bringing up of Chernobyl and use of it as the reason why nuclear is bad is just getting tedious.

And the same opponents complain when Turbine Plants and Water Barrages are planned because they too damage the footprint of the environment so in essence the power companies are in a no win situation because they get grief no matter what method of generation they try and plan for.

 

[90019]

Which ever power source is cheapest should be used not have the raving left wing eco hippies decide things because of "global warming"!!!

With the case against nuclear, it's mostly not eco-hippies, as you put it, that are the problem. it's those who don't understand enough about nuclear power.
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And the same opponents complain when Turbine Plants and Water Barrages are planned because they too damage the footprint of the environment so in essence the power companies are in a no win situation because they get grief no matter what method of generation they try and plan for.

Precisely.

They seem to have an excuse for every type of power station around.

Maybe we should have selective blackouts when there isn't enough power because they 're against the power stations, and only cut the power to them.

 

[Old Timer]

It won't work.

They live in mobile communes, and drive around in battered diesel vans that generally pollute the road as they chug on by.

The irony of the mess they make and leave, and the pollution their vans cause is lost on them, whilst they are quite happy to criticise others who are driving more efficient vehicles !

 

[royaloak]

Quite right OT, but they will class their journey as "essential" because they are saving the planet.
Anyway all this talk of electrification and new lines going on, anyone would think there was an election around the corner!

 

[Old Timer]

There is Chap, its a straight fight between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems who are going to be the next official Opposition.

Starting to hear rumours of meetings in darkened pub corners with Lib Dem managers, so expect a few Political conversions on the road to Damascus

RE our saviours of the earth.....whilst they are flying across our road network, to save the planet earth, they are poisoning the rest of us, but then like all these Lefties, none of it matters when you can slip off home to Mummy and daddy's for a hot meal when it suits, and catch up with the latest Old School goings on

 

[royaloak]

And don't forget "mummy" picking them up at the airport in her 4x4.
The Tories will dig the country out of the mess that labore(sic) have left us in AGAIN. Don't you just love how history repeats itself :-x.
You always get some party members jumping ship, got to get a new John Lewis store-card somehow the old one is full, it is just that it is blown out of all proportion now by our honest ans good intentioned media.

 

[90019]

The irony of the mess they make and leave, and the pollution their vans cause is lost on them, whilst they are quite happy to criticise others who are driving more efficient vehicles !

Don't forget the holier than thou Prius crowd, who, despite the way they look down on everyone else, are actually driving one of, if not the, the dirtiest and most polluting vehicles around.

 

[Old Timer]

All except Baroness Scotland, who insisted on a Jag even though she is not entitled to one !

Apparantly a Prius is below her.

 

[Spaceflower]

Exactly.

The problem lies with the opposition to nuclear. So many people argue against it without knowing much about it. The constant bringing up of Chernobyl and use of it as the reason why nuclear is bad is just getting tedious.

Yes, but what happens to the waste? Is this something else to burdon future generations as we go rushing head on into mass nuclear power generation?

As for Chernobyl, Russians are crazy, we would never dream of playing such dangerous games.......What worries me is the uncertainty of nuclear. Nobody knows what the economy or social structures will be in place in a few hundred years (look at the past few hundred). However, nuclear waste will still be radioactive whatever happens.....
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Power generation by fossil fuels is ugly and renewables have the face of an angel whilst working. nuclear, well, somewhere in between.....whilst working. What happens if/when the system stops working? Now how do they compare?
Risk. Small risk but huge consequences.
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once the monster has been freed there will be no going back........

The end of the world is nigh.....

 

[Kneedown]

Don't forget the holier than thou Prius crowd, who, despite the way they look down on everyone else, are actually driving one of, if not the, the dirtiest and most polluting vehicles around.

And thats BEFORE they even start the engine for the first time. You have to take into account all the clag the container ships pump out on the journey here from the other side of the world.
My Land Rover won't put out anything near that in it's lifetime!
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And don't forget "mummy" picking them up at the airport in her 4x4.

To be presented with two or three bin liners full of washing for her to do!
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You have also got four engines and transmissions to fuel and maintain, which means more waste oil and consumable parts in addition to the lubricants and other parts

O L Leigh

Always remembering that a diesel requires many more mechanical parts including engines, transmissions etc during the course of it's lifetime than an electric does. The manufacture of these said parts also has an impact on CO2 emissions.
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While further wiring of the MML is certainly desirable, you're going to have to do the whole lot in order to make any impact at all.

O L Leigh

It's more than desirable. If the entire MML were to be done then that is the final stepping stone in place for doing the rest of the network as everything else would be just infill. For instance it would then be a simple matter to link up Derby to Brum and Bristol - NE-SW route done. Stenson to Stoke and Ambergate to Matlock then extended to Hazel Grove- Hey Presto, two new electrified routes to Manchester. It would then make sense to do more local routes.
This would be the case up and down the country, not just here in the Midlands. If we're serious about cutting emissions then the MML is the essential next step.