Electrify more train lines between cities to cut carbon and congestion

[90019]

And thats BEFORE they even start the engine for the first time. You have to take into account all the clag the container ships pump out on the journey here from the other side of the world.
My Land Rover won't put out anything near that in it's lifetime!

By taking into account the emissions from production and disposal, Priuses are extremely polluting. But people seem to completely forget about this. They seem to conveniently forget that new cars have to be produced first.
The cleanest car you can run is an old diesel running on second hand veg oil. This gets rid of the environmental costs of producing a new car and disposing of an old one as well.

Unfortunately, the idiotic scrappage scheme is taking loads of perfectly roadworthy cars off the roads to be scrapped, despite having years of life left in them. Thankfully, it shouldn't last much longer.

 

[Aictos]

Don't forget the holier than thou Prius crowd, who, despite the way they look down on everyone else, are actually driving one of, if not the, the dirtiest and most polluting vehicles around.

Pardon me, but are we talking about the same car here?

What the Prius is

The Toyota Prius (pronounced /ˈpriːəs/) is a full hybrid electric mid-size car developed and manufactured by the Toyota Motor Corporation. It first went on sale in Japan in 1997, making it the first mass-produced hybrid vehicle. It was subsequently introduced worldwide in 2001. The Prius is sold in more than 40 countries and regions, with its largest markets being those of Japan and North America. As a top seller, the U.S. market made up more than half of the 1.2 million Prius sold worldwide by early 2009.

Most fuel efficient car in the U.S

Not to mention the Prius is the most fuel efficient gas car currently sold in the U.S. according to the United States Environmental Protection Agency.

CO2 emission

According to the UK Department for Transport, the third-generation Prius launched in the UK in August 2009 emits 89 g/km, overtaking other cars except the two passenger Smart fortwo with its 0.8-liter turbocharged 45 hp diesel which emits 88 g/km.

The previous Prius tied with the MINI Cooper D as the fourth least CO2-emitting vehicles at 104 g/km, behind the Ford Fiesta Econetic at 98 g/km and the tied Volkswagen Polo 1.4 TDI/SEAT Ibiza 1.4 TDI at 99 g/km - it is the least CO2-emitting petrol-powered car, since the Ford and the Polo/Ibiza (both of which are city cars) run on diesel.

My view on the vehicle

As far as my own opinion goes, it is a far more energy efficient car then most of the vehicles available there - so where you got the idea of them being the one of the most if not the most dirtiest and polluting vehicles, I have no idea.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Pardon me, but are we talking about the same car here?

90019 is referring to life cycle (cradle to grave) emissions of CO2 and impact on the environment, for example in mining the minerals used in the battery pack (lead acid IIRC) There are so many different measures and models for measuring life cycle that it is far from an exact science. There are whole university departments dedicated to modelling lifecycle CO2.

Also the modest CO2 emission savings in use (the 89g/km is presumably the combined urban and extraurban cycle) are not so prevalent when driven "normally" i.e. over 30 mph for sustained periods; the Prius will emit similar volumes to any other car of similar weight with a petrol engine of similar size. You can't magic the energy from nowhere, it comes from the petrol at the end of the day.

 

[Spaceflower]

There are whole university departments dedicated to modelling lifecycle CO2.

Who funds them? The car manufacturers? Which one?

 

[90019]

Pardon me, but are we talking about the same car here?

As far as my own opinion goes, it is a far more energy efficient car then most of the vehicles available there - so where you got the idea of them being the one of the most if not the most dirtiest and polluting vehicles, I have no idea.

90019 is referring to life cycle (cradle to grave) emissions of CO2 and impact on the environment, for example in mining the minerals used in the battery pack (lead acid IIRC) There are so many different measures and models for measuring life cycle that it is far from an exact science. There are whole university departments dedicated to modelling lifecycle CO2.

Also the modest CO2 emission savings in use (the 89g/km is presumably the combined urban and extraurban cycle) are not so prevalent when driven "normally" i.e. over 30 mph for sustained periods; the Prius will emit similar volumes to any other car of similar weight with a petrol engine of similar size. You can't magic the energy from nowhere, it comes from the petrol at the end of the day.

Correct.

If you look at the real environmental cost of the Prius, it's not as rosy as they'd have you believe.

One of the main problems are the batteries, especially because of the high nickel content.
The mining of the nickel for the batteries is extremely polluting, then it gets shipped all around the world during the various stages of production. IIRC each battery lasts approx. 4 years, after which it has to be replaced with a new one, and the old one disposed of. I can't remember if they've actually found a way to dispose of them properly yet, last time I checked, they were being dumped near the factory, which had turned that small area into wasteland.

Thing is though, most people don't take it into account, but the production and disposal of cars are a significant part of their environmental impact. This is one of the reasons that the government's way of being green, by getting people to scrap old cars and buy new ones, is a flawed one; they're actually increasing the impact on the evironment by taking many roadworthy cars off the road and scrapping them whilst also encouraging an increase in demand for new cars to be built, and creating a lot of excess emissions and waste that would not have happened otherwise.
My friend went to a scrapyard to get a wiper motor for a friend's car recently, and was amazed by the number of perfectly good condition cars there. There are even cars in scrapyards now that still have MOTs, because people have been lured towards replacing them by the government.


If you really want to drive a green car, buy an old diesel and run it off second hand oil from your local chippy or somewhere like that. It keeps an old car on the road, reducing the waste from disposing of it and means one less new car is produced, saving a lot of energy. It is also a much better fuel to use, because, unlike normal biofuel, land is not being used for fuel instead of food, and you are using sometihng that would otherwise almost certainly go to waste. Interestingly, diesel engines were actually originally designed to run on veg oil, not diesel.
Your car may smell of fish and chips if you do get it from a chippy though

 

[Spaceflower]

No, you have the wrong end of the stick. That is the governments bid to bail out the car industry.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Who funds them? The car manufacturers? Which one?

It is much wider than that, you're talking public funding (e.g. through The Carbon Trust), research funding bodies, climate change charities, the oil industry, the energy industry as well as the auto industry. And of course lots and lots of consultancy companies are trying to drum up business by developing and offering LCA services to all sorts of companies, who they hope will pay big bucks to prove their green credentials.

 

[Spaceflower]

With current technology, the more we pollute and the more we throw away, the more big bucks are made.

Its not as if there isn't the technology to combat pollution or to provide green power generation, its the replacement of the big bucks generation thats the problem.

I refer you to an old BR documentary on the poor standard of our network compared to that of Holland. A young John Prescott comes in with his (labours) vision for delivering a consumer based........what's a consumer John? consumer, hmmmm?

 

[Royston Vasey]

No, you have the wrong end of the stick. That is the governments bid to bail out the car industry.

Agree on that, but I don't think the government tried to hide that it was an economic stimulus. However 90019 is also right in that they did claim (as an afterthought) that emissions reduction was a driver for the policy

 

[Spaceflower]

Well, there you go, more rubbish policy lagging way behind as demonstrated by 90019

 

[merlodlliw]

While I was awaiting fitment of a new tow bar(on the car) I went into Tesco
on the Chester Greyhound park, and grazed todays Liverpool Daily Post,it ran two pages on the push to get the two lines Liverpool to Manchester and Crewe to Chester electrified to 25KV, they called them the forgotten lines.
The article had input from NR/VT & Nth Rail and gave the need for quick change
around trains, not a word about Chester to Manchester.

 

[90019]

No, you have the wrong end of the stick. That is the governments bid to bail out the car industry.

I understand that part of it as well, but one of the reasons they gave for people buying the newer cars is because they're cleaner, which is a flawed reason, and seemed more relevant to the discussion.

On that front though, it has to be noted that the majority of cars bought will not have been made here, so they are partially bailing out not only the dealers in this country, but those in the country the cars were built and the car company in general.

 

[Swift-Deere]

I understand that part of it as well, but one of the reasons they gave for people buying the newer cars is because they're cleaner, which is a flawed reason, and seemed more relevant to the discussion.

On that front though, it has to be noted that the majority of cars bought will not have been made here, so they are partially bailing out not only the dealers in this country, but those in the country the cars were built and the car company in general.

Yes and the companies that do the scrappage schemes such as Toyota, Nissan and fiat are not in financial trouble

To help companies that need bailing out the gov should have it so you only get scrappage scheme on companies in trouble such as American manufacturers such as Ford, GM (includes Chevy Saab and vauxhall) and Chrysler(include Dodge and Jeep)!!!

 

[90019]

To help companies that need bailing out the gov should have it so you only get scrappage scheme on companies in trouble such as American manufacturers such as Ford, GM (includes Chevy Saab and vauxhall) and Chrysler(include Dodge and Jeep)!!!

So you think the British taxpayer should be bailing out American businesses?

 

[Swift-Deere]

So you think the British taxpayer should be bailing out American businesses?

No but the current scrappage scheme isn't bailing out British Businesses i meant that the scrappage scheme doesn't necessarily help struggling businesses as it allows any car maker to cash in not just strugling ones

 

[90019]

No but the current scrappage scheme isn't bailing out British Businesses i meant that the scrappage scheme doesn't necessarily help struggling businesses as it allows any car maker to cash in not just strugling ones

I'm aware that it doesn't, and I am completely against it anyway, but your suggestion was that it was used to bail out the struggling car companies, of which you mentioned the American ones. Which is not something the British taxpayer should be funding.

 

[Daimler]

Don't forget the holier than thou Prius crowd, who, despite the way they look down on everyone else, are actually driving one of, if not the, the dirtiest and most polluting vehicles around.

Well said! Bravo! Etc! I wish people would actually realise this - and Prius owners would acknowledge they're driving a lie, so to speak.

No but the current scrappage scheme isn't bailing out British Businesses i meant that the scrappage scheme doesn't necessarily help struggling businesses as it allows any car maker to cash in not just strugling ones

A condition should be - in my opinion - that the manufacturer in question is both struggling and British (or at least British-based in terms of the vast majority of their jobs).

But, I share 90019's general view of the scheme. It's catastrophic from an environmental point of view.

 

[90019]

Well said! Bravo! Etc! I wish people would actually realise this - and Prius owners would acknowledge they're driving a lie, so to speak.

They can't because they buy the things to make themselves feel good.

Also, we agree on something, how unusual

 

[Swift-Deere]

A condition should be - in my opinion - that the manufacturer in question is both struggling and British (or at least British-based in terms of the vast majority of their jobs).

But, I share 90019's general view of the scheme. It's catastrophic from an environmental point of view.[/QUOTE]

Then the choose of cars meating this criuteria is very small and poor mainly just mid size hatchbacks (ie vauxhall astra, a few hondas and nissans or other companies with UK plants) or cars on the higher end of the market (Jaguar, Land Rover, Bentley, Aston Martin)

There not much prospect for people wishing so buy the average family car such as a SUV or saloon

 

[90019]

Then the choose of cars meating this criuteria is very small and poor mainly just mid size hatchbacks (ie vauxhall astra, a few hondas and nissans or other companies with UK plants) or cars on the higher end of the market (Jaguar, Land Rover, Bentley, Aston Martin)

There not much prospect for people wishing so buy the average family car such as a SUV or saloon

So?

The point of it is to help the car industry, not make cars cheaper for everyone.

If it extends to cars from foreign countries, we just end up with more cars on the road and a much smaller benefit to the UK economy.

 

[Swift-Deere]

So?

The point of it is to help the car industry, not make cars cheaper for everyone.

If it extends to cars from foreign countries, we just end up with more cars on the road and a much smaller benefit to the UK economy.

That's what i am saying the benefits for the British people and British Industry are small on non existent.
It not the responsibility of the government to bail out companies its the companies responsibility to improve the attractability of their product

 

[Old Timer]

Its the usual ill thought out and hopelessly incompetently applied Labour solution to a particular problem.

The point is that they did not restrict it to UK based producers, and by far the greatest advertising, at least where I am, was done by the likes of Skoda, BMW, and Mercedes. I have heard a few adverts for Vauxhall but nothing I can recall for Ford.

I have little doubt that the true "foreign" manufacturers who import rather than produce here have lapped up this early Christmas present.

In answer to an earlier comment about US car manufacturers, well Ford, Vauxhall, Chrysler areall US owned and the rest pretty much owned by Asian Companies.

A continuing refusal by the car workers trade unions in the seventies (especially) and the eighties resulted in British cars being expensive, unreliable, and poorly manufactured. Soaring losses associated with decreasing sales prevented an inovations and had there been any the Unions would have prevented the installation of new equipment anyway.

My Brother in Law used to work at British Leyland. He recalls hardly a shift where there was not some stoppage or dispute of some sort, and eventually he got so fed up with the constant in and outing to the car park for mass grievance meetings and slow downs that he went onto the night shift, where he discovered that there was a roster for the beds !

He was told to bring his own mattress and given a series of dates when he should just turn up and could spend the night asleep !

He actually managed to organise to go out and work as a newspaper delivery man during the nightshift. He did not necessarily feel good about it but he had to fit in with the rest of the nightshift, some of whom had full time illicit day jobs !

No-one went short of spares or parts as anything that one wanted could be passed through the fence by arrangement or actually delivered to your door discretely.

People in Personnel used to remark on how healthy the nigh shift workers were, as no one ever went sick untilit was finally discovered that there was sickness and all that happened was that the person was still booked in by a friend.

Night shift supervisors were not willing to rock the boat and night shift Managers could not risk being implicated as the cause of a dispute as that would have been there lot in the long term.

We had similar practices in the Railways years ago, although not so bad, but for which the net effect was to cause high costs which ate into the annual subsidy. Some of it was caused by poor basic wages but a lot was caused by small groups of militants determined to fight a class war.

 

[Crossforth]

IMO they should get on and electrify major lines so that they are more "green" encourage people to use the train more, and not the car, by lowering prices.

I know it sounds great in theory but in practice, it just ain't going to happen

 

[Daimler]

So?

The point of it is to help the car industry, not make cars cheaper for everyone.

If it extends to cars from foreign countries, we just end up with more cars on the road and a much smaller benefit to the UK economy.

Three things we agree strongly on... *feels forehead for temperature*

 

[Kneedown]

IMO they should get on and electrify major lines so that they are more "green" encourage people to use the train more, and not the car, by lowering prices.

I know it sounds great in theory but in practice, it just ain't going to happen

True, and it's a great shame because, in the big scheme of things, it really wouldn't cost a lot. I seem to recall a figure around the £9 billion mark being mentioned recently.
The money we would save by kissing goodbye to the EU, abolishing the various quango's, and other savings made by getting rid all the "non-job's" created by this government (diversity officers and the like) would pay for it and also sort the NHS out at the same time!

 

[Swift-Deere]

True, and it's a great shame because, in the big scheme of things, it really wouldn't cost a lot. I seem to recall a figure around the £9 billion mark being mentioned recently.
The money we would save by kissing goodbye to the EU, abolishing the various quango's, and other savings made by getting rid all the "non-job's" created by this government (diversity officers and the like) would pay for it and also sort the NHS out at the same time!

Correct this government spend more money on pointless useless things funding the benefit scroungers and chavs, and pandering to the lefties with all this Political correctness and health and safety nonsense and robs the UK people with overly high taxes (eg fuel prices, outrages road tax on 4x4, powerful cars)!!!

 

[Drsatan]

Yeah, we waste about £30 billion a year on various quangos so why not spend it on useful stuff like electrified railways & better schools??:-x

 

[Spaceflower]

Because those useless quangos provide jobs for the useless.

<ducks for cover

 

[moonrakerz]

Well said! Bravo! Etc! I wish people would actually realise this - and Prius owners would acknowledge they're driving a lie, so to speak.

Most of the "Hollywood" set already do - once they think the press have gone home they revert to the V12 Cadillac or the Gulfstream jet !

There is one point that is overlooked in the call for more electrification. A diesel train has the advantage that it produces the power (and pollution) when it needs it. Enough to keep the lights/heating working in the station, lots when doing 125mph.

A power station producing electricity cannot ramp up its output rapidly to meet a surge in demand, except by keeping its steam generating plant fired up. (Except for places like Dinorwig, of which there aren't many !) So for a considerable amount of time they are producing pollution for no real gain.
Except for a nuclear plant - of course !

 

[turbo mick]

hi there

personally i hate electirc dc or ac lines iam a diesel driver and thats how i want to stay.the good thing is when the overheads lines come down the diesel trains keep going HST,S and units are more fun to drive

cheers