Suggestions on how to improve CrossCountry

[DanTrain]

I've done Crewe - Euston on a 350/1. It was fine.

Exactly, they’ve been running Manchester-Scotland for a while now without too much complaint (although they do feel like they’re about to derail at 110 - maybe that’s just me!).

One question I do want to pose here is how do people think XC can reduce their prices? At the moment, one of the main things preventing competition with motorways is the sheer cost of taking multiple people on XC compared with driving!

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

If we were starting with a clean sheet I'd like to see an XC network that joined the top-level cities outside London with one another at speeds as close as possible to those on the "London and ..." axes. My candidates would be Bristol, Cardiff (because it's a capital), Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh, and Glasgow. Obviously those wouldn't be the only stops, but the aim would be (a) high speeds and the shortest possible journey-times between the major centres (basically those large cities that are flourishing in te modern world), and (b) serving the longer-distance passengers, not short-distance commuters/shoppers using quality rolling stock. Only after this was in place would I think of where these trains might be extended to as a secondary (if still important) aspect of the XC service. Our major economic centres outside London are at present very poorly connected with one another, with times like those between Birmingham and Manchester or Liverpool and Leeds being pretty disgraceful for a modern transport system.

Superb post and thoroughly agree.

A true ‘Cross Country’ should be connecting all our major cities after the ‘Inter City’ lines.

Combine the ‘Cross Country’ franchise with the ‘Trans Penine’ franchise and run a true service.

Fast trains every hour between key cities, with more stopping services inbetween for the smaller places.

Airport connectivity too? Thinking Manchester, Birmingham and Stansted as main beneficiaries.

 

[DarloRich]

Simple for me: Cut the timetable & stop trying to be all things to all men

Remove all stations north of Edinburgh/Glasgow
Cut anything south of Reading
Cut anything west of Plymouth ( unless passenger numbers support eg Newquay)
Reduce the number of services to allow more doubled running. Aim never to run a 4 car train on core route
Concentrate on the core SW/NE axis & Cardiff/Nottingham ( another location?) and cut everything else.

As for the trains:

order new ( HST comfort & length + modern reliability + bi mode) ASAP
Refurbish voyagers: Remove 1 toilet, remove first class, remove wasted space, fit nicer seats, fit better lighting, fit free wifi.
Use more HST in the interim
Once new trains arrive cascade Voyagers onto Cardiff/ Notts route and cascade 170's to local services + retire HST

 

[OverSpeed]

I've spent the last week Travelling on XC Travelling between Birmingham new street, Exeter,Bristol and Cardiff, 1st leg of my travels was between Birmingham and Bristol (*) on a voyager, thought it was going to be packed with people but there was ample room to sit BUT when i did the Journey between Bristol and Exeter (**) (On a Voyager) i had to do a "corbyn" along with another passenger and sit on the floor as there was no seats until Taunton.

On the return journey i went between Exeter and Bristol, on a HST and it was busy ,but there was loads of Room,plenty of seats and no one standing, although i did poke my head out of the window a few times for old times sake

The Cardiff journey back to Birmingham (On a class 170) was busy but there was a few seats, which leads me to this.

Echoing what @DarloRich has said, Surely it would be better if XC had longer units on the busier routes (maybe Refurbished HST's like scotrail are doing or indeed order newer units like a 800) and put the Voyagers onto the lesser used routes between the cities and put the 170's on shorter local routes, i know i was travelling with people who were either going on their jollies (or come back from them) and few business types, but it's no fun at anytime of the year being crammed in with not much space!

(*) (**) And i remember doing this journey quite a bit in the late 80's and early 90's when i was a kid, and this route was ALWAYS a HST, busy but there was never any standing and we always travelled in comfort!

 

[MarkyT]

...when i did the Journey between Bristol and Exeter (**) (On a Voyager) i had to do a "corbyn" along with another passenger and sit on the floor as there was no seats until Taunton.

Was the journey a commuter peak evening service out of Bristol? I've found these filling up consistently at Bristol when coming in from further north, even on a Saturday. Luckily in most cases I've always already had a seat, apart from a recent case coming back from Didcot on a Saturday when clearly I had to to change and stand as far as to Taunton! XC services around this time offer the fastest journeys to Taunton and Exeter which seems a healthy commuting and leisure market so perhaps a few extra GWR fast services of high quality formed by short HSTs would help solve the Voyager crowding. The existing XC operator also proposed to double the frequency on this axis as far as Exeter in last year's timetable change but for various reasons the changes never materialised.

 

[6Gman]

Way upthread somebody suggested improving the service by increasing the fares. Which wasn't popular.

However since then we have had suggestions of more carriages, more services, more units, new build. And lower fares.

So how do we balance the books?

 

[DanTrain]

Way upthread somebody suggested improving the service by increasing the fares. Which wasn't popular.

However since then we have had suggestions of more carriages, more services, more units, new build. And lower fares.

So how do we balance the books?

Government subsidy. But of course this current government is too focussed on areas within 20 miles of the River Thames to care about 'the provinces'!

 

[AndrewE]

Way upthread somebody suggested improving the service by increasing the fares. Which wasn't popular.
However since then we have had suggestions of more carriages, more services, more units, new build. And lower fares.
So how do we balance the books?

We don't. It's public transport, remember? A civilised country facilitates the movement of its citizens, trying to avoid gridlock and (faint hope) pollution. Use centralised and local tax revenues to provide the infrastructure needed if the country is to function effectively.

 

[6Gman]

Government subsidy. But of course this current government is too focussed on areas within 20 miles of the River Thames to care about 'the provinces'!

Funded from? Let's be realistic. There are huge pressures on government spending. Chances of people standing between Birmingham and Derby being a higher priority than the NHS, education, social care etc etc ?

 

[si404]

Simple for me: Cut the timetable & stop trying to be all things to all men
Cut anything south of Reading

That seems a little extreme - South of Reading isn't some irregular backwater of the XC, unlike Cornwall or north of Edinburgh.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Simple for me: Cut the timetable & stop trying to be all things to all men

Remove all stations north of Edinburgh/Glasgow
Cut anything south of Reading
Cut anything west of Plymouth ( unless passenger numbers support eg Newquay)
Reduce the number of services to allow more doubled running. Aim never to run a 4 car train on core route
Concentrate on the core SW/NE axis & Cardiff/Nottingham ( another location?) and cut everything else.

As for the trains:

order new ( HST comfort & length + modern reliability + bi mode) ASAP
Refurbish voyagers: Remove 1 toilet, remove first class,

Good idea!!! Why not remove London terminals too, or just close the whole railway as well while you’re at it

On a more serious note, I see no reason to completely reduce the services to practically nothing unless you are trying to reduce the number of Voyagers needed so you can double them up. But you say these are inadequate trains anyway and you would order more, so why not just order sufficient new trains (longer ones) as to maintain the current service? Or am I missing something here?

 

[OverSpeed]

I think it was just after 3 if my memory serves me correctly!

Was the journey a commuter peak evening service out of Bristol? I've found these filling up consistently at Bristol when coming in from further north, even on a Saturday. Luckily in most cases I've always already had a seat, apart from a recent case coming back from Didcot on a Saturday when clearly I had to to change and stand as far as to Taunton! XC services around this time offer the fastest journeys to Taunton and Exeter which seems a healthy commuting and leisure market so perhaps a few extra GWR fast services of high quality formed by short HSTs would help solve the Voyager crowding. The existing XC operator also proposed to double the frequency on this axis as far as Exeter in last year's timetable change but for various reasons the changes never materialised.

 

[Kite159]

Simple for me, reduce overcrowding by skipping Darlington

 

[The Ham]

That seems a little extreme - South of Reading isn't some irregular backwater of the XC, unlike Cornwall or north of Edinburgh.

Cornwall gets a few services a day each way South of Reading gets 1.5tph edu nearly doubles the capacity of the services between Reading and Basingstoke. The existing services certainly wouldn't be able to cope on that leg.


South of Basingstoke may be able to cope with the extra passengers, but that would involve more reversals at Basingstoke which would block (probably) platform 4 for a bit, or given the circa 20 minute layover, possibly head to a siding.

 

[DanTrain]

Funded from? Let's be realistic. There are huge pressures on government spending. Chances of people standing between Birmingham and Derby being a higher priority than the NHS, education, social care etc etc ?

Well there is if you insist on 'austerity'. The last government seemed to run things perfectly well and find money to rebuild most of our schools and hospitals...

 

[Kite159]

Well there is if you insist on 'austerity'. The last government seemed to run things perfectly well and find money to rebuild most of our schools and hospitals...

By signing up to (some poorly written) PFI deals where a private company would rebuild the school/hospital and claim back the cost & more over so-many years. Useful to keeping the debt off the books.

-------

During the peak-times at Basingstoke, the XC services are useful for folk heading south due to the Weymouth services running fast from Waterloo to Winchester

 

[ScotTrains]

I would like to see the Aberdeen and Dundee XC services cross over to the West Coast after Edinburgh. I'm sure they used to do this under VirginXC. This would give Fife and the North East (Scotland) a direct link to the North West (England) for cities such as Carlisle and possibly Manchester.
Currently, the 0820 XC from Aberdeen follows an LNER service (leaving less than half an hour beforehand) all the way until York.

 

[The_Engineer]

Well there is if you insist on 'austerity'. The last government seemed to run things perfectly well and find money to rebuild most of our schools and hospitals...

That government borrowed like there was no tomorrow, and left us with a great debt. Remember the there's no money left note to the incoming chancellor??

 

[DanTrain]

By signing up to (some poorly written) PFI deals where a private company would rebuild the school/hospital and claim back the cost & more over so-many years. Useful to keeping the debt off the books.

That government borrowed like there was no tomorrow, and left us with a great debt. Remember the there's no money left note to the incoming chancellor??

Or at least that's what this government wants us to believe. The last government spent money where it was needed, and if it hadn't been for the financial crisis, they might well have seen the returns on that investment. Other countries seem to get away with investing in their infrastructure without going bankrupt...

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Apparently there are calls for a Edinburgh to Cardiff Rail Link for the next CrossCountry Franchise. https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/transport-campaigners-call-direct-edinburgh-cardiff-rail-link

 

[mmh]

CrossCountry should serve routes and destinations where there's a demand, not because of silly political gesturing.

If there was much demand for point to point travel between Edinburgh and Cardiff it'd probably have more than two flights a day,
it's definitely a route where air makes more sense than rail.

 

[B&I]

Simple for me: Cut the timetable & stop trying to be all things to all men

Remove all stations north of Edinburgh/Glasgow
Cut anything south of Reading
Cut anything west of Plymouth ( unless passenger numbers support eg Newquay)
Reduce the number of services to allow more doubled running. Aim never to run a 4 car train on core route
Concentrate on the core SW/NE axis & Cardiff/Nottingham ( another location?) and cut everything else.

As for the trains:

order new ( HST comfort & length + modern reliability + bi mode) ASAP
Refurbish voyagers: Remove 1 toilet, remove first class, remove wasted space, fit nicer seats, fit better lighting, fit free wifi.
Use more HST in the interim
Once new trains arrive cascade Voyagers onto Cardiff/ Notts route and cascade 170's to local services + retire HST

Or: buy more and longer trains

 

[mmh]

Or: buy more and longer trains

Exactly. That's all that's needed. The routes would be better being expanded to where cross-country journeys would be useful, rather than hacked back to some limited network just because Birmingham is a bit busy and if you want to go somewhere that isn't on a London route you can change three times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or: buy more and longer trains

Agreed - the simple solution to the XC issues is a suitably sized fleet of 7-car (one coach 1st) bi-mode units.

 

[The Ham]

Agreed - the simple solution to the XC issues is a suitably sized fleet of 7-car (one coach 1st) bi-mode units.

If you built a fleet of 7 coach units and had some 5 coach units (even if they were the 22x's) you could have a larger number of seats (even based on the inefficient Voyager seating layout just extended to 7 coaches) but fewer coaches than if you had the 222 fleet at XC.

Now given that new trains tend to be cheaper to lease and maintain and there would be less need for pairs of units the likely cost savings could be significant compared to using the 22x fleet. There would also be no issues with different software between the fleets, as the 7 coach units wouldn't be able to run in passenger service with the 5 coach units (12 coaches @ 23m or 23m+).