Biggest ratio of comparable first/standard class fares

[MKB]

I was shocked to see the following today:

Birminingham International to Nottingham

Standard Anytime Return = £24
First Anytime Return = £100

In other words, first class costs over four times standard class. Are there worse examples out there?

 

[LondonLarry]

I was shocked to see the following today:

Birminingham International to Nottingham

Standard Anytime Return = £24
First Anytime Return = £100

In other words, first class costs over four times standard class. Are there worse examples out there?

How about Birmingham New Street to Nottingham:

Standard Anytime Return = £26
First Anytime Return = £52

 

[Mojo]

Even worse when you consider that the Birmingham - Nottingham leg is going to be a 170 (unless you change at Derby), with no complimentaries (as far as I'm aware) and the Birmingham International - New Street leg could be a London Midland service (with no complimentaries in First class, if it even exists), an Arriva service (with no First class) or a Virgin/CrossCountry service in which case you probably won't get a service due to the short distance.

 

[philjo]

There is a peak 1st fare for Potters Bar to London but most peak services that call there are 6-coach 313s (std class only!)

 

[LondonLarry]

There is a peak 1st fare for Potters Bar to London but most peak services that call there are 6-coach 313s (std class only!)

There are also First Class fares Waterloo - Vauxhall, and that's only a 3min journey! First Class is only offered on a handful of peak trains to/from Reading!


Another anomoly, both priced by Virgin is:
Southampton Central - Glasgow Ctl: First Anytime Return £314
Birmingham New Street - Glasgow Ctl: First Anytime Return £314

 

[furryfeet]

after 0930 mon-fri and all day at weekends
day return from glasgow to preston
29.40 2nd class ( day return )

233 1st class open return ( that is all that there is ! )

I have understood as to why the TOC's have never introduced 1st class Saver fares at 50% more than the 2nd class Saver fare, or even as in this example 1st class day returns at a 50% supplement. How much traffic they would pick up if prices were seen to be value for money ?

 

[Olympian]

after 0930 mon-fri and all day at weekends
day return from glasgow to preston
29.40 2nd class ( day return )

233 1st class open return ( that is all that there is ! )

Not quite - there's also the £125 First class off-peak return from Edinburgh - Preston that's valid via Glasgow and allows break of journey on both outward and return legs so can be used as a Glasgow - Preston off-peak return.

 

[glynn80]

I was shocked to see the following today:

Birminingham International to Nottingham

Standard Anytime Return = £24
First Anytime Return = £100

In other words, first class costs over four times standard class. Are there worse examples out there?

I think there seems to be a policy of excessive prices on the First Anytime flows on the ex Central Trains routes of CrossCountry.

There are other shocking examples:

Burton on Trent to Stansted Airport- SOR: £66.50, FOR: £220.00 (3.3x higher)
Stansted Airport to Leicester- SOR: £59.00, FOR: £196.50 (3.3x higher)
Stansted Airport to Birmingham New Street- SOR: £67.50, FOR: £220.00 (3.3x higher)
Ely to Coventry- SOR: £64.00 FOR: £198.50 (3.1x higher)

I would have thought originally this policy could have been designed to shift consumers towards Advance fares on the route, giving CrossCountry 100% of the revenue as opposed to an ORCATS share. However, this is not the case as CrossCountry have very few FC Advance flows on any of the ex-Central Trains routes. There seems to be no logical explanation towards the pricing strategy other than to set the fare at a slightly lower rate than the equivalent route London fare. This pricing strategy is especially confusing considering the minimal difference between FC and SC on these routes.

 

[bnsf734]

First Class was only introduced back to the ex Central trains Birmingham -Stansted service afer Cross Country took over. They fitted the 170's with first class seating and now charge totally outrageous fares to use it. Still, as services through Nuneaton are usually full and standing perhaps people will hand over an arm and leg just to get a seat.

I wonder if this exercise of fitting first class to the 170's has made a profit for Cross Country?

Calv

 

[LondonLarry]

First Class was only introduced back to the ex Central trains Birmingham -Stansted service afer Cross Country took over. They fitted the 170's with first class seating and now charge totally outrageous fares to use it. Still, as services through Nuneaton are usually full and standing perhaps people will hand over an arm and leg just to get a seat.

I wonder if this exercise of fitting first class to the 170's has made a profit for Cross Country?

Calv

I think they've done it to give traincrew and managers somewhere nice to sit!

 

[furryfeet]

tamworth to burton on trent
2nd class cheap day return 4.60
1st class open return 14.00

by the way, are advance fares included in this comparison thread ?
if so on the 0649 from carlisle to preston this coming saturday
2nd class advance 5.50
1st class advance 26.50

 

[bengolding]

I think they've done it to give traincrew and managers somewhere nice to sit!

As far as I'm aware, Cross Country have no FC Advance fares on their ex-Central routes with First Class. I routinely have to pay the full FC fare on the Birmingham-Stansted route. At off peak times and weekends, FC is virtually guaranteed to be empty apart from off duty rail staff and those with free FC passes, from my observations. Even if they only had 2 FC Advance tickets per off peak train, that would fill some seats but I guess Cross Country don't think about integrating their route, so one could buy say a FC Advance from Nuneaton to Bristol.

 

[furryfeet]

leeds to sheffield, return fares
8.80 off peak day return ( not via doncaster )
10.80 anytime day return ( any route )
11.20 anytime return ( any route )
31.20 1st anytime return
41.00 1st anytime return

 

[clagmonster]

The daft part with that one is the any permitted fares aren't valid via Doncaster, therefore making the not Doncaster fare effectively any permitted and the any permitted pointless.

 

[furryfeet]

acting on a previous thread, which revealed the most expensive return ticket in the country
newquay to kyle of Lochalsh out on 18 aug back on the 21 aug
2nd class off peak 244.10
2nd class open 456.00
1st class open 1002.00 ( this is the fare so revealed )

there is also a 1st class off peak at 561.00 but this is not available for any of the journeys shown - it is greyed out !

 

[furryfeet]

another one, discovered whilst looking at splitting a Birmingham to Plymouth journey at Cheltenham ....

2nd class open return 66.30
1st class open return 262

a multiplier of 3.95

having said that, splitting at Cheltenham DOES work out cheaper in all cases !

 

[bengolding]

First Class was only introduced back to the ex Central trains Birmingham -Stansted service afer Cross Country took over. They fitted the 170's with first class seating and now charge totally outrageous fares to use it. Still, as services through Nuneaton are usually full and standing perhaps people will hand over an arm and leg just to get a seat.

I wonder if this exercise of fitting first class to the 170's has made a profit for Cross Country?

Calv

I've travelled twice on this Stansted Airport-Birmingahm route and both in First Class on peak arrivals into New St. Both were quite well patronised in the 9-seat First compartment on the 170s, with about 3-4 on arrival. I think the key problem is that at off peak times, the compartment is almost always empty. As far as I'm aware, no Weekend First facility is available on this route. The fact that CC also tend to have 2 car 170s on peak trains along this route aggrevates the overcrowding issue in Standard.

 

[jon0844]

There is a peak 1st fare for Potters Bar to London but most peak services that call there are 6-coach 313s (std class only!)

Because 313s can cover many services in peak times, you'll find that many services are declassified anyway - should a 4 or 8-car turn up (bonus).

I used to love reading 'this 6-car will be short formed as a 4-car' on the Journey Check service; Good, that's a seat guaranteed then.

 

[mumrar]

I don't have the fares in front of me, but I pointed out a fare error (I hope it is) on the Stansted route. A First Class Anytime return from the airport to Peteborough via Not London is over six times the price. It's even more expensive than the anytime first if you go via London

 

[John @ home]

Glasgow to Leeds via Appleby is £45.60 Anytime Return.
If you want a First Class ticket for that route, the only one available is the Anytime Return route Any Permitted at £294.
That's a 6.45:1 ratio.
Any First Class accommodation is provided between Glasgow and Carlisle only.

John

 

[mumrar]

Glasgow to Leeds via Appleby is £45.60 Anytime Return.
If you want a First Class ticket for that route, the only one available is the Anytime Return route Any Permitted at £294.
That's a 6.45:1 ratio.
Any First Class accommodation is provided between Glasgow and Carlisle only.

John

That's not a fair fare comparison. If the first doesn't exist on the one route, compare the standard price of the same route as the available first class ticket because there's a huge difference in the possible route miles of the two routes you compared too.

 

[jopsuk]

I don't have the fares in front of me, but I pointed out a fare error (I hope it is) on the Stansted route. A First Class Anytime return from the airport to Peteborough via Not London is over six times the price. It's even more expensive than the anytime first if you go via London

There do seem to be some odd things going on there. Using the Nat Ex website, the non-day returns I get are
Std: £18.80 (Off Peak, Not London)
Std: £23.50 (Anytime, Not London)
1st: £43.00 (Off Peak, Not London)
Std: £47.90 (Super off Peak)
Std: £65.00 ("Weekend Return" - eh? How does that fit with "Simple" fares?)
Std: £75.00 (Off Peak)
Std: £121 (Anytime)
1st: £163 (Anytime)
1st: £173 (Anytime, Not London)

 

[rick9525]

The daft part with that one is the any permitted fares aren't valid via Doncaster, therefore making the not Doncaster fare effectively any permitted and the any permitted pointless.

There is a train that goes direct from Sheffield to Leeds via Doncaster so any permitted would be allowed at that service but obviously not the not Doncater.

 

[furryfeet]

That's not a fair fare comparison.

It IS fair, because that is all that the passenger is offered in terms of prices !
Even if one splits at Carlisle it is still a ratio of 3.76:1

i.e. 134 1st class return glasgow to carlisle
plus 37.90 2nd class carlisle to leeds return via appleby ( comes down to 27.90 for a day return )

 

[mumrar]

But why would someone pay for first class to spend a large part of the trip in standard?
Anyway, courtesy of XC and their looney fares down Stansted way, we have Audley End-Peterborough route Not London Anytime Return is £23.00, First Anytime Return (and it is still route Not London!) is £259.50. A credit crunch busting 11.28 times the standard fare. Surely there cannot be worse? Just noticed that the price of this return is rather ridiculously £115 MORE than the seven day first class season ticket.

 

[jon0844]

Charging more than a seven day season is a total joke in itself, even if there are other examples with a higher ratio of standard to first!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Its a small difference. A VERY small difference - only 0.05p in fact. But, its the standard class fare that costs 5p more!

Using NXEC on line booking for a Saturday morning from Glasgow to Berwick during 2009 summer, it was 5p cheaper on 1st class. £11:50 1st, £11:55 standard. But now its changed - the standard Class fare has gone down to £8 thanks to the curernt "zones" offer.

If you have logged in (to entitle you to the 10% online discount) then you should see the fares for the 9:50 departure.

 

[evil_hippo]

I wouldn't complain about these things. Actually, first class fares should be just as high as they reasonably can be - that's clearly a policy that some of the TOCs here are following - as it doesn't matter how much you charge, those on business expenses will still pay them. Very few people actually look at those prices, except the ones processing the expense claims!

First class exists as a way of making these businesses subsidise the railway, by paying above the odds without resistance. And I, for one, am quite happy to squeeze those businesses until the pips squeak, to keep my standard class fares down.

 

[yorkie]

But why would someone pay for first class to spend a large part of the trip in standard?

Well, yes, but unless they ask for the split, they won't be told about it under impartiality rules (unless there's an exception that I don't know about?) so that is the comparison they'll be offered.

 

[jon0844]

And I, for one, am quite happy to squeeze those businesses until the pips squeak, to keep my standard class fares down.

As long as you, or people you work with, don't deal with such businesses that are obviously going to pass on these costs somewhere along the line!!