The future of the buffet car?

[Craig2601]

How many TOCs left in the UK have a buffet/shop onboard? I’m aware of VTWCs “the shop” but am I right in thinking GWR will no longer have them once the HSTs are replaced?

 

[Clansman]

TOCs' buffets/shops that are going nowhere anytime soon;

Virgin Trains West Coast
GWR (Night Riviera)
LNER
Caledonian Sleeper
ScotRail (Post HST)
Arriva Trains Wales (Premier service)
Greater Anglia
East Midlands Trains
Grand Central
Eurostar

 

[trebor79]

Greater Anglia
LNER
XC?
EMT?

All long distance services should have a buffet IMHO.

 

[edwin_m]

EMT is mostly trolleys although I think some of the buffet cars still open at weekends.

 

[E_Reeves]

Is the Chiltern buffet car still going?

 

[cactustwirly]

TOCs' buffets/shops that are going nowhere anytime soon;

Virgin Trains West Coast
GWR (Night Riviera)
LNER
Caledonian Sleeper
ScotRail (Post HST)
Arriva Trains Wales (Premier service)
Greater Anglia
East Midlands Trains
Grand Central
Eurostar

EMT have no buffet anymore, it's all an outsourced 'Rail Gourmet' trolley

 

[cactustwirly]

EMT is mostly trolleys although I think some of the buffet cars still open at weekends.

'open' is a loose term, but certainly not a proper buffet, just a stationary 'Rail Gourmet' trolley.

 

[class 9]

I believe in the run up to Arriva getting the XC, there was a survey done with loaded questions such as "do you want at seat service?" answers were yes, so shop- gone!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe in the run up to Arriva getting the XC, there was a survey done with loaded questions such as "do you want at seat service?" answers were yes, so shop- gone!

TBH I want either at seat service or a Bistrowagen where I can go and spend a decent chunk of the journey enjoying food/drink in convivial surroundings with proper crockery/cutlery/glasses/cups. Packing up my laptop and walking back and forth every time I want a cup of tea is a nuisance.

 

[dk1]

Is the Chiltern buffet car still going?

All gone

 

[Prestige15]

LNER 801's will have a buffet as you can see on the rear of the second coach.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lauri...5-GiTf8T-25qzpy8-HgEo31-25oep3F-Frh1UP-GxBWxQ

 

[Ianno87]

TOCs' buffets/shops that are going nowhere anytime soon;

Virgin Trains West Coast
GWR (Night Riviera)
LNER
Caledonian Sleeper
ScotRail (Post HST)
Arriva Trains Wales (Premier service)
Greater Anglia
East Midlands Trains
Grand Central
Eurostar

Will Greater Anglia's not be disappearing with their new EMU fleet, replacing the Mk.3 sets on the Norwich runs?

 

[Journeyman]

A lot of this is down to very significantly shifting patterns of demand, fuelled by the much wider availability of food on stations and a lot of people being much fussier about what they eat.

Back in the fifties, it seemed that the prevailing opinion was that you'd die if you didn't eat a massive plate of meat and two veg every few hours, and so railways based their provision on that opinion. Until the seventies, there were Pullman cars serving three course meals on the Brighton line, a journey that took under an hour!

I think it's a shame that catering has disappeared from so many services, but I can see why. Appealing to the hugely varying and demanding tastes of modern travellers is very difficult, and profitability has always been poor.

 

[UP13]

A lot of this is down to very significantly shifting patterns of demand, fuelled by the much wider availability of food on stations and a lot of people being much fussier about what they eat.

Back in the fifties, it seemed that the prevailing opinion was that you'd die if you didn't eat a massive plate of meat and two veg every few hours, and so railways based their provision on that opinion. Until the seventies, there were Pullman cars serving three course meals on the Brighton line, a journey that took under an hour!

I think it's a shame that catering has disappeared from so many services, but I can see why. Appealing to the hugely varying and demanding tastes of modern travellers is very difficult, and profitability has always been poor.

I'd also argue people are more savvy about saving money and will take supplies from home or a supermarket rather than buy knocked up products on board.

 

[Journeyman]

I'd also argue people are more savvy about saving money and will take supplies from home or a supermarket rather than buy knocked up products on board.

That is, of course, another significant factor. The standard and value of food you can buy before boarding has improved hugely over the last 20 years or so. The supermarket pre-packed sandwich has probably done a lot to kill off railway catering.

 

[chubs]

Will Greater Anglia's not be disappearing with their new EMU fleet, replacing the Mk.3 sets on the Norwich runs?

I believe the London - Norwich Flirt's have a buffet specified, but the Stansted ones (and rest of the new fleet of course) do not.

 

[chubs]

That is, of course, another significant factor. The standard and value of food you can buy before boarding has improved hugely over the last 20 years or so. The supermarket pre-packed sandwich has probably done a lot to kill off railway catering.

This x1000. Even now quality is terrible: Lavazza coffee and a microwaved bacon roll? Yuck. Or maybe some warm cans of fosters or the cheapest wine option the buyers could find.

London terminals have a huge choice inside and immediately outside and you get much higher quality products which a lot of people look for these days. Even smaller stations have a mini supermarket or convenience store in or near them, plus a cafe that will have nicer products than the buffet.

Somebody usually pipes in with a 'you can have nice microwave meals these days' whenever this discussion comes up but that quite simply isn't true.

 

[Journeyman]

This x1000. Even now quality is terrible: Lavazza coffee and a microwaved bacon roll? Yuck. Or maybe some warm cans of fosters or the cheapest wine option the buyers could find.

London terminals have a huge choice inside and immediately outside and you get much higher quality products which a lot of people look for these days. Even smaller stations have a mini supermarket or convenience store in or near them, plus a cafe that will have nicer products than the buffet.

Somebody usually pipes in with a 'you can have nice microwave meals these days' whenever this discussion comes up but that quite simply isn't true.

Absolutely, I think a lot of people will be happy to roll up at Birmingham New Street or King's Cross an hour or so early and have a decent quality meal/snack/drink before boarding the train.

You can get decent microwave food - Caledonian Sleeper have done quite a good job here - but it's not common, and certain things just don't work, your bacon roll being a classic example. It's usually completely the wrong texture.

 

[38Cto15E]

With EMT are the Rail Gourmet staff now wearing EMT uniforms?
Spot on journeyman, I enjoy a Bacon sarnie if cooked on a convector oven, not so when microwaved.

 

[Journeyman]

I enjoy a Bacon sarnie if cooked on a convector oven, not so when microwaved.

Yeah - the microwaved ones usually use a Panini-type bread that goes all stodgy when it's been in a microwave, and the bacon just feels too damp.

 

[whhistle]

With EMT are the Rail Gourmet staff now wearing EMT uniforms?

Yes, I believe so.

 

[InterCity:125]

XC?

Nope.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Somebody usually pipes in with a 'you can have nice microwave meals these days' whenever this discussion comes up but that quite simply isn't true.

It *is* true, but you have to pick the things that microwave well - curries, chillies, spag bol, other pasta dishes, paella etc and *not* anything involving bread (so the classic BR gristleburger and bacon rolls are out).

Look at DB's Bistro menu:
https://www.nsinternational.nl/web/...6bc-6937-4df4-b066-323104a570e4&contentid=910

(it is DB's despite being on the NS site - DB no longer have a PDF of it online)

- it's all clearly designed to be microwaveable without loss of quality. If you're going to do sandwiches, cold works better, or panini type sandwiches you can do in a sandwich toaster.

 

[DarloRich]

What future for the buffet car: limited.

The options available at or close to many stations reduce the needs for a buffet. People can easily, and cheaply, obtain a variety of food before getting on board. I simply don't think there is a demand, in second class, for a service beyond that of very light refreshment: tea, coffee, kitkats etc. I think a trolley can offer that service but the quality and consistency of the offering needs to improve. I would reduce the number of products but increase the quality of service and quality of goods sold.

I don't travel first class very often so cant comment on the service there.

Having just visited Holland i noticed the buffet there consisted of a man with a water tank on his back!

TBH I want either at seat service or a Bistrowagen where I can go and spend a decent chunk of the journey enjoying food/drink in convivial surroundings with proper crockery/cutlery/glasses/cups. Packing up my laptop and walking back and forth every time I want a cup of tea is a nuisance.

that isnt going to happen.

 

[InterCity:125]

TBH I want either at seat service or a Bistrowagen where I can go and spend a decent chunk of the journey enjoying food/drink in convivial surroundings with proper crockery/cutlery/glasses/cups. Packing up my laptop and walking back and forth every time I want a cup of tea is a nuisance.

See the German ICE restaurant car:

 

[Journeyman]

It *is* true, but you have to pick the things that microwave well - curries, chillies, spag bol, other pasta dishes, paella etc and *not* anything involving bread (so the classic BR gristleburger and bacon rolls are out).

True - meat-in-sauce with pasta/rice dishes work well. So do things with potatoes - Caledonian Sleeper's haggis, neeps and tatties is excellent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True - meat-in-sauce with pasta/rice dishes work well. So do things with potatoes - Caledonian Sleeper's haggis, neeps and tatties is excellent.

FWIW I eat microwave meals all the time at home - not shop-bought ones, but I cook for 4 and freeze 3 portions. If anything, stuff like chilli and curry tastes nicer when reheated than it did the first time round as there has been more time for the flavours to infuse.

You could do a vaguely acceptable gristleburger or bacon or sausage roll if you microwaved the meat first then added it to a cold bun with salad etc once heated. While there may be kitchen hygiene concerns about staff doing this (buffet cars don't have the space for the preparation surfaces, handwash sinks etc) you could just supply it to the customer in two separate packs and they could put it in themselves.

Mind you I used to be very partial to the old BR CrossCountry bacon, sausage, egg and tomato rolls - if you pack them full of meaty flavour (sounds like a dog food ad), the slight squishyness of the bread can be forgiven

 

[Indigo Soup]

I think there's a lot of misplaced nostalgia around buffet cars. Even in the supposed golden age of the 1950s, most long distance trains had no catering or at best a miniature buffet for cold food and hot drinks. A full buffet was a rare beast, a restaurant car pretty much confined to the likes of the Flying Scotsman or the Royal Scot.

For them to survive, they have to justify their existence. That means making more money for the train operator than the seats whose place they take. Which means they either need to be cheaper than Boots at the station, which is practically impossible for structural reasons, or offer a superior product. The second option pushes you towards high-end, at-seat dining, sold at a premium, and diminishing returns start to kick in. It may well work out that even that doesn't pay.

There is a third option - cross-subsidise the buffet car from the increased custom that arises when on-train facilities improve. But this argument only works if you have a train carting fresh air about, not on the busy inter-city expresses that we normally think deserve catering. Even then, its' doubtful if they can make a case.

 

[Rail Blues]

Buffet, can't remember the last time I used one tbh. The food is expensive almost universally ropey, especially for vegetarians and like others have said I cannot be arsed packing up my laptop and associated gubbins every time I want a coffee. A trolley meets most people's needs far better.

I can get a great range of vegan and vegetarian sandwiches from the nearby Tesco for a fraction of what I'd be charged for a limp ploughman's sandwich from the buffet.

 

[Journeyman]

What future for the buffet car: limited.

The options available at or close to many stations reduce the needs for a buffet. People can easily, and cheaply, obtain a variety of food before getting on board. I simply don't think there is a demand, in second class, for a service beyond that of very light refreshment: tea, coffee, kitkats etc. I think a trolley can offer that service but the quality and consistency of the offering needs to improve. I would reduce the number of products but increase the quality of service and quality of goods sold.

Yeah - the biggest problems with trollies, certainly the ones on ScotRail that I use quite often, is that they stock too many things, and don't have enough of the important items. I've been on Inverness to Edinburgh trains, a journey that takes well over three hours, and the trolley has run out of sandwiches within ten minutes of leaving Inverness, before it's halfway down the first coach.

It could be much improved by having a more limited range, with a decent amount of the popular items.