ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Highlandspring]

Do we know when this picture was taken?

Photo was taken on Friday.

 

[jingsmonty]

Agreed. On the 170 back north yesterday, it was packed (1209 from Queen Street) with tourists from all over the world plus about half from Scotland. I was next to a German lady who was shocked to see only three carriages, a dirty train, old seats and how small the train was overall. Very little can be done about the latter but the 50-6-mph crawl up Drumochter will be much better with the HSTs I hope.

Can they go much faster though for the 10 miles north of Blair Atholl?

Unfortunately, the HST is limited to 60mph from Struan to Dalnaspidal ('SP' differential speeds - an 'SP' sprinter train can do 70mph - which it can't physically do anyway!) - I'd like to think this would be looked at, as the HST could easily go faster. There re a number of these 'SP' differential speed boards on the HML, but that is the one that is the most glaring, in terms of performance & timings.

 

[jingsmonty]

Photo was taken on Friday.

Hopefully, a Northbound move will be imminent...!

 

[scotraildriver]

how do they cope with Queen street tunnel?

Out the tunnel at 55 compared to 35-40 for a DMU.

 

[gingertom]

Out the tunnel at 55 compared to 35-40 for a DMU.

just like an EMU then
I have a lingering memory from the late 70's of a trip up the incline in a 3-car 101 with an engine out. I could have walked it quicker.

 

[47271]

Unfortunately, the HST is limited to 60mph from Struan to Dalnaspidal ('SP' differential speeds - an 'SP' sprinter train can do 70mph - which it can't physically do anyway!) - I'd like to think this would be looked at, as the HST could easily go faster. There re a number of these 'SP' differential speed boards on the HML, but that is the one that is the most glaring, in terms of performance & timings.

This is a good point. Linespeed on the double section between Blair Atholl and Dalwhinnie isn't ever great, whether you're going up or down. It's really quite winding by comparison with other sections of the route but I think this generally gets overlooked because everyone's relieved that it isn't single.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that anything tries to go down Drumochter any faster than at the moment, that freight tried it on Slochd a few years ago, but if they can do anything to speed us up northbound then it would be a useful extra win for the HSTs.

 

[Highland37]

That is good to hear. What is the line speed from Blair Atholl to Druim Uachdar and what does a 170 do up there?

 

[InOban]

I'm surprised at the speed limit between Blair Atholl and the summit. I recall a limit on the S-bend where it crosses the Garry not far North of Blair Atholl, but I didn't think the rest was curvy.

 

[jingsmonty]

This is a good point. Linespeed on the double section between Blair Atholl and Dalwhinnie isn't ever great, whether you're going up or down. It's really quite winding by comparison with other sections of the route but I think this generally gets overlooked because everyone's relieved that it isn't single.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that anything tries to go down Drumochter any faster than at the moment, that freight tried it on Slochd a few years ago, but if they can do anything to speed us up northbound then it would be a useful extra win for the HSTs.

Slochd isn't too bad (the differential speeds aren't for a great distance here), the Struan-Dalnaspidal & on to Drumochter would make a huge difference!

Just as an aside - the speed on the up line is (from Dalnaspidal to Dalnacardoch) is 75 (normal)mph / 85mph ('SP' speed)...

 

[laseandre]

It is not a zero-sum game.

In the case of Trident, it should be.

 

[kylemore]

I wonder what the reaction would have been in 1978 if British rail had said the future for Scottish Intercity services was refurbished LNER articulated stock hauled by reboilered A4 pacifics - the same age then (if they'd been around) as the HSTs are today!

 

[jingsmonty]

I wonder what the reaction would have been in 1978 if British rail had said the future for Scottish Intercity services was refurbished LNER articulated stock hauled by reboilered A4 pacifics - the same age then (if they'd been around) as the HSTs are today!

Would be kind of difficult, as steam officially disappeared from the mainline in 1968....also, A4 steam locos weren't running in 1978.....!

The HSTs are here - I for one am glad that they are!

 

[Northhighland]

Would be kind of difficult, as steam officially disappeared from the mainline in 1968....also, A4 steam locos weren't running in 1978.....!

The HSTs are here - I for one am glad that they are!

So am I, would like to actually see them in service, but all carping aside a big improvement on what we have. The time for arguing over the 40 year old cast off stuff is past. Roll on getting them in service, hopefully at least one or two this year.

 

[Stoney1979]

I stand to be corrected, but this must be very unusual, or perhaps unprecedented, as a project where such a large number of trains of this age are refurbished and redeployed in the way that is happening here?

So, surely, it's important to keep an open mind until or unless there is evidence either way? Full disclosure - I think HST will be a huge success, but if it isn't I will be willing to accept so.

However, how will the success/failure of the HST introduction be objectively measured? Passenger surveys? General public-domain "noise"?

 

[gingertom]

how will the success/failure of the HST introduction be objectively measured? Passenger surveys? General public-domain "noise"?

success will be measured in time-honoured financial terms- bums on seats.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I wonder what the reaction would have been in 1978 if British rail had said the future for Scottish Intercity services was refurbished LNER articulated stock hauled by reboilered A4 pacifics - the same age then (if they'd been around) as the HSTs are today!

The nearer equivalent would be to ask what the reaction would have been if British Rail had said that the future for Scottish internal expresses was refurbished Type 4 diesels released by the introduction of HSTs on the Great Western Main Line. Which is more or less what actually happened.

 

[jingsmonty]

So am I, would like to actually see them in service, but all carping aside a big improvement on what we have. The time for arguing over the 40 year old cast off stuff is past. Roll on getting them in service, hopefully at least one or two this year.

100% agree....the Mk3 is a very pleasant way to travel &, as I've said previously, having driven the 2+4 training train, I can vouch for the performance upgrade!

Scotrail just need to keep on top of the maintenance requirements - that's what the training train is useful for, it's not just train crews who are learning just now....

 

[jingsmonty]

I stand to be corrected, but this must be very unusual, or perhaps unprecedented, as a project where such a large number of trains of this age are refurbished and redeployed in the way that is happening here?

So, surely, it's important to keep an open mind until or unless there is evidence either way? Full disclosure - I think HST will be a huge success, but if it isn't I will be willing to accept so.

However, how will the success/failure of the HST introduction be objectively measured? Passenger surveys? General public-domain "noise"?

Very fair & objective point. I fear that the slightest issue will have the media wheeling out the tired old '40 year old castoffs' quotes.

I, personally, think they will be a huge success - Scotland has been crying out for a proper 'InterCity' train service for many years now.

 

[najaB]

as I've said previously, having driven the 2+4 training train, I can vouch for the performance upgrade

Does a large part of training involve the DI slapping your hand so you don't take power where you're used to?

 

[jingsmonty]

Does a large part of training involve the DI slapping your hand so you don't take power where you're used to?

It's certainly different to driving a Class 170/158, that's for sure!!

 

[Northhighland]

100% agree....the Mk3 is a very pleasant way to travel &, as I've said previously, having driven the 2+4 training train, I can vouch for the performance upgrade!

Scotrail just need to keep on top of the maintenance requirements - that's what the training train is useful for, it's not just train crews who are learning just now....

I think you make the most important point. the reliability of the trains could be the chillies heel here, the maintenance crews in Liara were well used to the intricacies of the power cars, we need to make sure the Scotrail teams learn quickly and are on top of the issues. Poor reliability would be a disaster in the public eye.

 

[gingertom]

I think you make the most important point. the reliability of the trains could be the chillies heel here, the maintenance crews in Liara were well used to the intricacies of the power cars, we need to make sure the Scotrail teams learn quickly and are on top of the issues. Poor reliability would be a disaster in the public eye.

I'm confident Haymarket will rise to the occasion. There is anecdotal evidence of some Craigentinny staff being poached already.

 

[Northhighland]

I'm confident Haymarket will rise to the occasion. There is anecdotal evidence of some Craigentinny staff being poached already.

Am sure you are right. Reliability never been an issue for 170’s. Keep up the good work.

 

[43096]

I think you make the most important point. the reliability of the trains could be the chillies heel here, the maintenance crews in Liara were well used to the intricacies of the power cars, we need to make sure the Scotrail teams learn quickly and are on top of the issues. Poor reliability would be a disaster in the public eye.

ScotRail need to be setting their sights rather higher than the reliability of the GWR HST fleet - GWR have the worst reliability of any HST fleet, and by quite a considerable margin. Looking at what Craigentinny do with the East Coast fleet would be a much better starting point.

 

[Wst71Pa2]

It's certainly different to driving a Class 170/158, that's for sure!!

Got to be better than "Fred Flintstone Feet" anywhere off the flat for a 170

 

[jingsmonty]

I think you make the most important point. the reliability of the trains could be the chillies heel here, the maintenance crews in Liara were well used to the intricacies of the power cars, we need to make sure the Scotrail teams learn quickly and are on top of the issues. Poor reliability would be a disaster in the public eye.

The maintenance staff in Inverness certainly seem to be on top of things...it takes time, though - you are spot on when you talk about the 'intricacies of the power cars' - we will be finding out all the quirks with them as we use them more & more.

Also, the GWR fleet wasn't modernised to the same degree as the other operators did...

 

[scotraildriver]

Like the lock on the high tension cupboard of 43021 is fitted the wrong way round. Needs to be at "open" for the engine to run. Caught a few folk out already.

 

[najaB]

Like the lock on the high tension cupboard of 43021 is fitted the wrong way round. Needs to be at "open" for the engine to run. Caught a few folk out already.

I'm guessing that you won't know, but surely the answer to that would be either (a) re-install the switch; or (b) re-label it with a very prominent label.

 

[scotraildriver]

I'm guessing that you won't know, but surely the answer to that would be either (a) re-install the switch; or (b) re-label it with a very prominent label.

Yes it will get fixed but it's just an "intricacy " that people are finding.

 

[jingsmonty]

Like the lock on the high tension cupboard of 43021 is fitted the wrong way round. Needs to be at "open" for the engine to run. Caught a few folk out already.

Yep, have seen that one for myself too! Other one that one of the maintenance guys told me about is the 'alternator over volt' relay (I think that's what it is - it's certainly related to the alternator anyway!), which isn't in the cupboard with the rest of the relays - it's in the next cupboard along to the left (with no viewing window). Apparently this was tripping on 43148. Also found out that the relays which stop the engine give a slightly different fault indication - the blue switch which toggles 'up' when tripped is't obvious, but there is an indication in the centre of the relay which retracts into the housing itself - which was news to me!! Would be easy to miss when fault finding...