ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Northhighland]

I would guess that the set which is soon to be released will be used. However, the rumour persists that slam door Mk3s will be used temporarily, which will have implications for Guard training (apart from the crews - Waverly, I believe?) who currently work the loco-hauled commuter train around Fife. I believe the door controls to be fitted are very similar to what's on a Class 170, so this should help with the training...

Soon to be released? Seems to be an open ended phrase. Just off train from Glasgow, these trains are really needed. But realistically assuming Wabtec are going to be taking a bit longer to get the work done, say not complete until 2021, how long would training take for slam door sets on all routes?

 

[jingsmonty]

N

Soon to be released? Seems to be an open ended phrase. Just off train from Glasgow, these trains are really needed. But realistically assuming Wabtec are going to be taking a bit longer to get the work done, say not complete until 2021, how long would training take for slam door sets on all routes?

Pass! Isn't there legislation preventing slam door stock being in use after a certain date? Next year seems to spring to mind, although not sure.

 

[najaB]

Pass! Isn't there legislation preventing slam door stock being in use after a certain date?

Rolling stock on the network after (May?) December 31st 2019 has to comply with the TSI-PRM technical specification, unless an exemption is requested and granted.

 

[gsnedders]

Rolling stock on the network after (May?) December 31st 2019 has to comply with the TSI-PRM technical specification, unless an exemption is requested and granted.

Though some of us would be dubious about an exemption not being granted in a case like this where there has been a clear plan in place to deal with the deadline, and no compliant stock available to continue the services.

 

[43096]

Rolling stock on the network after (May?) December 31st 2019 has to comply with the TSI-PRM technical specification, unless an exemption is requested and granted.

Which doesn’t actually answer the question....

Power operated doors are not necessarily required: the Night Riviera stock will retain slam doors after 31/12/19, for example.

 

[Domh245]

Whilst there would be a plan in place to get rid of non-compliant stock in place, I can't help but wonder if they'll get told to do all of the other modifications apart from the doors (which seem to be the sticking point of the whole project) and then you can run the non-compliant stock and slowly cycle back to Wabtec for door conversion. After all, PRM TSI has more to it than slam doors - there are accessible toilets, PISs, colour schemes, etc to be considered as well, and even NR's deadline for non-retention toilets, most of which are "easy", and even the difficult toilet stuff will pale in comparison to the doors.

 

[Stoney1979]

All things considered and taking account of the above info and comments, it's getting to the point now that I suspect there are significant legal proceedings afoot, being held in private due to their commercial sensitivity. At this sort of time you can forget any 3rd party stakeholders such as the general public who actually use and suffer the service, it's all about the law and the money between the contract signers. Given the obvious and serious slippage of the project, someone somewhere is going to have to pay a lot of money quite soon to fill the gap, all dependent upon the terms of the original contract. My guesses are that:
- the lawyers on all sides have advised everyone to say absolutely nothing for now
- no-one is going to say anything until they are 100% sure of it
Most of the public, I include my closest friends and family in that, have no absolutely no idea what an HST is, let alone all the details the learn-ed contributors to this forum are aware of. Most people just want an train on time, and a seat. The expectations of ScotRail are so low that "more of the same" will do no harm to them for now. When the HST improvements do come, no doubt they'll be actively trumpeted as the best railway Scotland has ever had; which it likely will be, eventually. But, for now, other than people with an educated and active interest on forums such as this, virtually no-one out there will know what that "improvement" actually means until it happens. There's no expectation from anyone right now because no-one really knows what an HST is, let alone what a nicely refurbished one is. So, to be fair to ScotRail, not saying anything at all to draw attention to the current failure it is a very wise move, legally/commercially astute, or otherwise.

 

[SC318250]

Worth noting that the Class 318 project at Wabtec was suppose to finish in 2016, but it didnt finish until 2018, I believe it was due to amount of corrosion found on body work, which was similar to the last refurb on the Class. So it may well be similar on the HST trailers

 

[gingertom]

Worth noting that the Class 318 project at Wabtec was suppose to finish in 2016, but it didnt finish until 2018, I believe it was due to amount of corrosion found on body work, which was similar to the last refurb on the Class. So it may well be similar on the HST trailers

at this rate it could be quicker to wait until some 801s release mk4s- the mod to the ETH electrics is relatively straightforward.

 

[jingsmonty]

No, it isn't a simple modification - they are 2 completely different electrical systems. The HST MK3s take a 415v 3phase supply directly off the alternator - much simpler than the normal 100v dc (I think....) standard loco ETH output, which requires additional equipment on the coach to rectify the voltage to the correct figure (ehich I don't know - I'm not an electrician!). The Loco hauled Mk 3a/3b coaches have motor alternator sets on the coaches for this (not sure if the Mk4s are the same or have a more modern equivalent), which is, apparently, heavy & unreliable - this is why the HSTs have has the 415v 3 phase ETS from new, as they were designed to work with dedicated Mk3 trailers. Mk4s have different (Tightlock) couplers as well (HST trailers/power cars attached with Alliance buckeye couplers(, although this would be less of a problem.

I can't see a fleet of Mk4s being completely rewired to work with HST power cars (ehich would also need modifying with different couplers at the luggage van end), then not being able to be used with any other loco type - it would be almost (if not as) time consuming as the door mods!

In many ways, my personal (& subjective) opinion is that the Mk3 is superior anyway...

at this rate it could be quicker to wait until some 801s release mk4s- the mod to the ETH electrics is relatively straightforward.

 

[shredder1]

Apologies in advance, but without wading through all 93 previous pages, what routes are the Scottish HST running on?

 

[mallard]

I can't see a fleet of Mk4s being completely rewired to work with HST power cars [...], then not being able to be used with any other loco type - it would be almost (if not as) time consuming as the door mods!

Surely it would be far easier just to make the HST power cars generate "standard" ETH power? There's surely enough space in the mostly-disused luggage area to mount the necissary equipment to convert voltages, etc. That would have the advantage that the modified power cars would be compatible with most other coaching stock too; although there admittedly isn't a lot of need for that (Cl43s on the Royal Train, anyone?).

 

[PHILIPE]

Apologies in advance, but without wading through all 93 previous pages, what routes are the Scottish HST running on?

None yet/ Planned Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness/Aberdeen

 

[shredder1]

None yet/ Planned Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness/Aberdeen

Many thanks for a quick reply, thank you.

 

[Highlandspring]

None yet/ Planned Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness/Aberdeen

And Aberdeen - Inverness.

 

[najaB]

Apologies in advance, but without wading through all 93 previous pages, what routes are the Scottish HST running on?

As others have said, none yet but the plan is to use them on the routers that link the Seven Cities (Edinburgh<->Glasgow excluded).

 

[shredder1]

As others have said, none yet but the plan is to use them on the routers that link the Seven Cities (Edinburgh<->Glasgow excluded).

Thank you, appreciated, I`ll have to pay a visit when they are running,

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see a fleet of Mk4s being completely rewired to work with HST power cars (ehich would also need modifying with different couplers at the luggage van end), then not being able to be used with any other loco type - it would be almost (if not as) time consuming as the door mods!

It would be easier to put some kind of conversion equipment in the power cars so the HST power cars produced whatever the Mk4s expect.

In many ways, my personal (& subjective) opinion is that the Mk3 is superior anyway...

Agreed, Mk4s are cheap rubbish with an unnecessary tilt profile and they ride like a cart.

 

[Highland37]

I am on the late, stationary, packed to standing 170 between Dalwhinnie and Blair Atholl. It's cleaner than normal though .

Poor service overall but poor behaviour from some passengers hogging two seats.

I was meant to be getting the 156 from Spean Bridge to Glasgow but missed that due to very slow tourist driving and road works.

We really need to spend more on infrastructure and less on trident, for example.

 

[najaB]

We really need to spend more on infrastructure and less on trident, for example.

It is not a zero-sum game.

 

[jingsmonty]

Surely it would be far easier just to make the HST power cars generate "standard" ETH power? There's surely enough space in the mostly-disused luggage area to mount the necissary equipment to convert voltages, etc. That would have the advantage that the modified power cars would be compatible with most other coaching stock too; although there admittedly isn't a lot of need for that (Cl43s on the Royal Train, anyone?).

I wouldn't think adding a complicated & potentially troublesome bit of electrical kit to the HST is something that Scotrail would look to undertake! The 415v 3 phase solution was chosen for the production HST (I believe the prototype HST had the standard loco ETH fitted) with good reason - it is reliable, simple (it takes the train supply directly from the alternator) & has stood the test of time well.
Fitting an ETH generator in a power car seems like a needless, time consuming & expensive waste - much more so than modifying Mk3 trailers, which are designed to work with HST power cars anyway!
The coaches have, obviously, been an issue, but once they are in service, I believe the power doors are a good, simple & reliable design.
Also, the power cars would have to be modified to couple onto a mk4 - it would then not be able to (easily, anyway) couple onto any other type of coach, if, I presume, we're talking about short formed mk4 sets - I would assume that only the end coach (next to the Class 91 at present), has a 'generic' coupler & not a mk4 Tightlock coupler?

 

[BRX]

We seem to go through the Mk4 discussion every ten pages or so on here, groundhog day style.

 

[Macwomble]

I`ll have to pay a visit when they are running,

The way things are going it'll be a while before "we" see you then

 

[shredder1]

The way things are going it'll be a while before "we" see you then

Hahaha

 

[dmkc]

When SR are chucking 158s on late afternoon Edinburgh-Aberdeen's (Fast Haymarket to Leuchars) with mezzanine style seating I.e standing on top of each other) you know this new stock is well needed.

Although I believe this short form 2 v 3 is due to the blockade at Aberdeen?

 

[gingertom]

I wouldn't think adding a complicated & potentially troublesome bit of electrical kit to the HST is something that Scotrail would look to undertake! The 415v 3 phase solution was chosen for the production HST (I believe the prototype HST had the standard loco ETH fitted) with good reason - it is reliable, simple (it takes the train supply directly from the alternator) & has stood the test of time well.
Fitting an ETH generator in a power car seems like a needless, time consuming & expensive waste - much more so than modifying Mk3 trailers, which are designed to work with HST power cars anyway!
The coaches have, obviously, been an issue, but once they are in service, I believe the power doors are a good, simple & reliable design.
Also, the power cars would have to be modified to couple onto a mk4 - it would then not be able to (easily, anyway) couple onto any other type of coach, if, I presume, we're talking about short formed mk4 sets - I would assume that only the end coach (next to the Class 91 at present), has a 'generic' coupler & not a mk4 Tightlock coupler?

I have just seen on LinkedIn (https://turbopowersystems.com/tps-auxiliary-power-supply-units-for-brush-traction/) that a company called Turbo Power systems has received an order for Auxiliary Converters for the Class 769 trains. These will replace the Motor-Alternator sets that supply three-phase AC and 110V dc for auxiliary loads. Replacing the MA set must be an expensive step, so I wonder if the instability rumoured operating on diesel (DC generator) supply is with the MA set?

Turbo Power systems would appear to have solid state systems that can convert one type of power system to another, ie 3 phase from a 43 power car to "regular" ETH. Couplings are a different issue and I'm sure they could be overcome, given enough money (and time which we don't have?).
At least mk4s would't need the door mods and shouldn't need corrosion remediation works, not yet anyway.

 

[jingsmonty]

Turbo Power systems would appear to have solid state systems that can convert one type of power system to another, ie 3 phase from a 43 power car to "regular" ETH. Couplings are a different issue and I'm sure they could be overcome, given enough money (and time which we don't have?).
At least mk4s would't need the door mods and shouldn't need corrosion remediation works, not yet anyway.

It's still an additional piece of (probably) expensive equipment, which will have to be fitted (probably at works, rather than depots), which staff will have to be trained on.

Why bother? The Mk4s aren't available yet anyway. Sure there will be plenty of takers for a short formed mk4/class91 combo-which would be much more logical than shoehorning them into an HST set!

 

[gingertom]

It's still an additional piece of (probably) expensive equipment, which will have to be fitted (probably at works, rather than depots), which staff will have to be trained on.

Why bother? The Mk4s aren't available yet anyway. Sure there will be plenty of takers for a short formed mk4/class91 combo-which would be much more logical than shoehorning them into an HST set!

I'm thinking more about timescales, with the time Wabtec is taking to convert the MK3s.

 

[Aictos]

Agreed, Mk4s are cheap rubbish with an unnecessary tilt profile and they ride like a cart.

I disagree, yes the Mk3s are probably cleared for more routes then the Mk4s however the vestibules of the Mk3s are small and claustrophobic, the Mk4s are far more spacious because while I detest the HSTs from Kings Cross because it feels so cramp in their vestibules I never have the same issue with the Mk4s unless it's full and standing.

And before anyone says but you can always use the seats, the majority of the time when I used to travel Kings Cross to Peterborough or Stevenage to Peterborough, I didn't see the point in using a seat as was far more comfortable just sitting by the doors and besides 45 mins is nothing.

Back to the HSTs though, when they do enter passenger service and I know they're intended for the Seven Cities services BUT could a set be diagrammed to replace the existing Mk2 Fife service as part of their working day ie Set A works Edinburgh to Aberdeen then works a service to Edinburgh before doing a trip around the Fife Circle before working a Edinburgh to Inverness or is that beyond the realms of Scotrail and Network Rail?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I disagree, yes the Mk3s are probably cleared for more routes then the Mk4s however the vestibules of the Mk3s are small and claustrophobic, the Mk4s are far more spacious because while I detest the HSTs from Kings Cross because it feels so cramp in their vestibules I never have the same issue with the Mk4s unless it's full and standing.

But the wide Mk4 vestibules seem to attract people sitting in them, which makes access difficult and makes people think a train is full and standing when there are often seats available.