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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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47271

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Speaking as someone interested in the subject, and also as someone who will use the trains on a near daily basis, I can tell you that I'm not that agitated about when they're going to be ready.

The first time I have to stand from Kingussie to Perth (in spite of a lot of what's written on here Highland Main Line aren't perpetually overcrowded) or my HML train has been cancelled because of a shortage of stock and a lack of a contingency, then I will become very interested. If it becomes that bad then the whole country will be demanding to know what's going on.

What I'm saying is that at present delay to the HSTs isn't a subject of significant public interest and on that basis noone should feel obliged to provide a commentary. The moment that Scotrail fails to provide an adequate intercity service then that will change completely.

But Abellio wouldn't be daft enough to let that happen I'm sure...
 
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Northhighland

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Speaking as someone interested in the subject, and also as someone who will use the trains on a near daily basis, I can tell you that I'm not that agitated about when they're going to be ready.

The first time I have to stand from Kingussie to Perth (in spite of a lot of what's written on here Highland Main Line aren't perpetually overcrowded) or my HML train has been cancelled because of a shortage of stock and a lack of a contingency, then I will become very interested. If it becomes that bad then the whole country will be demanding to know what's going on.

What I'm saying is that at present delay to the HSTs isn't a subject of significant public interest and on that basis noone should feel obliged to provide a commentary. The moment that Scotrail fails to provide an adequate intercity service then that will change completely.

But Abellio wouldn't be daft enough to let that happen I'm sure...

Suppose it depends on when you use the Highland Mainline. I use it 3 or 4 times a month. In the summer months it is awful especially leaving Glasgow late afternoon early evening. Edinburgh trains a little better but still overcrowded. I personally do not think it is ever acceptable to stand from Glasgow to Perth. This is a regular occurrence in the summer months.

So I do think it is legitimate to ask why promises made have not been delivered.
 

boabt

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I doubt that the majority of the travelling public are even aware of HSTs coming in, let alone that they are delayed.

Speaking as someone interested in the subject, and also as someone who will use the trains on a near daily basis, I can tell you that I'm not that agitated about when they're going to be ready.

The first time I have to stand from Kingussie to Perth (in spite of a lot of what's written on here Highland Main Line aren't perpetually overcrowded) or my HML train has been cancelled because of a shortage of stock and a lack of a contingency, then I will become very interested. If it becomes that bad then the whole country will be demanding to know what's going on.

What I'm saying is that at present delay to the HSTs isn't a subject of significant public interest and on that basis noone should feel obliged to provide a commentary. The moment that Scotrail fails to provide an adequate intercity service then that will change completely.

But Abellio wouldn't be daft enough to let that happen I'm sure...
 

47271

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Suppose it depends on when you use the Highland Mainline. I use it 3 or 4 times a month. In the summer months it is awful especially leaving Glasgow late afternoon early evening. Edinburgh trains a little better but still overcrowded. I personally do not think it is ever acceptable to stand from Glasgow to Perth. This is a regular occurrence in the summer months.

So I do think it is legitimate to ask why promises made have not been delivered.
I don't disagree with anything you say, my point is that if there's no public or precious little media interest in the HSTs then why would Scotrail provide negative updates on delays? Far better to wait until there's something tangible to announce.

If you're talking about the 1811 Queen Street-Inverness, then I use this train seven or eight times a month. There are often people standing to Larbert, and sometimes Stirling, but I've never known it standing to Perth.

The killer HML trains in the summer are those in the mid afternoon. In my experience the 1253 Inverness-Edinburgh is the worst of the lot, and I think that even a five coach HST will be under pressure to accommodate everyone comfortably in July and August. Even then, being fly, I've never failed to get a seat. If it turns up as a 158 and I can't sit anywhere then I'll be the first in the queue to demand answers.
 

Stopper

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The problem with a lot of Highland Main Line trains around peak times is that they stop at stations within the big city commuter area, such as Stirling, Dunblane, Fife etc. That’s what makes them overcrowded.

I get the 17:41 EDB-INV and it’s always full of Kirkcaldy and Markinch commuters.
 
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Northhighland

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I don't disagree with anything you say, my point is that if there's no public or precious little media interest in the HSTs then why would Scotrail provide negative updates on delays? Far better to wait until there's something tangible to announce.

If you're talking about the 1811 Queen Street-Inverness, then I use this train seven or eight times a month. There are often people standing to Larbert, and sometimes Stirling, but I've never known it standing to Perth.

The killer HML trains in the summer are those in the mid afternoon. In my experience the 1253 Inverness-Edinburgh is the worst of the lot, and I think that even a five coach HST will be under pressure to accommodate everyone comfortably in July and August. Even then, being fly, I've never failed to get a seat. If it turns up as a 158 and I can't sit anywhere then I'll be the first in the queue to demand answers.

Surely though it would be much better not to have to demand answers. Why not simply communicate to your customers?

Successful projects are where the project is perceived as a success by its customers.

Why not just come out and say ok we have a delay, it is caused by this and new programme is as follows.

Otherwise we end up with a series of delays missed dates and rumours. Soon someone puts the story together and hands it to the press. Then the project perception is one of no control, no-one in charge and no accurate information. Poor way to work and all the experts in project management tell you not to do this.

However the rail industry really does not learn. Same issues over and over again.
 
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So, if you think he has information that he's going to share, why not ask him directly? You've clearly found his social media feed going by the content described. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't get the comprehensive reply some people are looking for though - because (a) it's commercially sensitive, (b) and it'll be a moving target based on works at Wabtec and their internal programmes (e.g. guard and driver training - do they have enough to run service?)

You could always ask Transport Scotland under the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act for any recorded information they hold, but, do be aware that they can redact it if it is deemed to be commercially sensitive.

I could, but I don’t do Twitter, and I’m not signing up to something just to get an answer. It doesn’t take long to look at his feed to see he’ll only address complementary posts though. So fairly pointless.

As a passenger fed up of 2 car trains on “Inter7City” services long after HSTs should be in use, because TS have been caught out, FOI may be interesting.
 

mde

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As a passenger fed up of 2 car trains on “Inter7City” services long after HSTs should be in use, because TS have been caught out, FOI may be interesting.
It's not particularly difficult to make a request, you can also use (free) services such as WhatDoTheyKnow to help.

One thing that could be interesting would be to ask for a copy of any minutes that a project board or similar from TS has in respect of the HST - they already publish minutes from performance meetings, but, it's certainly possible there's something more pertinent which might give clues. Another possibility could be email correspondence regarding the service plans and such like.
 

Paul Kerr

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That's standard practice everywhere. Businesses of any kind are always much more forthright in trumpeting good news, and keeping publicity about adverse things to a minimum. It's hardly surprising really is it?

Ermm... not in my world it's not. For some perspective from a different private sector industry here, I'm now an expat in the US and I'm currently the lead engineer in a critical $150M environmental project for a multinational semiconductor company. Our project is behind and if we had not communicated these delays blow by blow to relevant stakeholders internally and externally, my project team would have been hung out to dry with a proverbial "P45 in the post". Burying bad news in the company I work for, and many others like it over this side of the pond, is not tolerated, period. I do not subscribe to the mindset that stakeholders (after all is that not what passengers are?) don't care about updates. Here the United States they most certainly do. I reckon long-suffering passengers on the HML would appreciate the occasional update as well. Surely that is not too much to ask is it?

Ultimately, I am an enthusiast and I make no secret of that, and as enthusiasts we probably do care more about these delays than the public at large. However, great fanfare was given to the press and the travelling public on how the Inter 7 City project was going to raise Scottish intercity services back to the standard of travel passengers enjoyed in the 1980's before Provincial/Regional Railways decided in their wisdom that a 2 car 158 was better than a 6 or 7 coach push-pull set. Anyhow that's a topic for another thread... in the end of the day dates were given to the public and these have not been met. In the culture I work in, that deserves a detailed explanation and at least an updated estimate on when the sets will enter service. A wishy washy aspiration of July (which wasn't met and no further update given on an updated schedule) would not cut it in the environment I work in. Enthusiasts might be classed as an annoyance by some in the modern railway industry, but ultimately enthusiasts are paying passengers as well for the most part and I think that's what appears to have been lost here. The railway is here to perform a public service and in my mind the lack of communication to stakeholders has been a stain on the project. If the trains are a success (which I passionately believe they will be) all will be forgiven with time, but that doesn't mean the lack of communication is right, because it's not. I'm with The Muttley on this one. Better communication would not go amiss.
 
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Northhighland

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My experience of project management is exactly the same as Paul Kerr. Once you set a programme you update the stakeholders regularly. Good PM’s do this as a matter of course. It is especially important to get the right message out in the event of delay, most projects experience some delay through the cycle.

This demonstrates you are managing the work and understand the consequences of change.

It can be seen by the industry responders on here the culture is not one of transparency rather one of secrecy and deflection.

Sadly this chimes with the Abiello ScotRail customer experience. They still haven’t worked out who there customers actually are.
 

47271

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Surely though it would be much better not to have to demand answers. Why not simply communicate to your customers?

Successful projects are where the project is perceived as a success by its customers.

Why not just come out and say ok we have a delay, it is caused by this and new programme is as follows.

Otherwise we end up with a series of delays missed dates and rumours. Soon someone puts the story together and hands it to the press. Then the project perception is one of no control, no-one in charge and no accurate information. Poor way to work and all the experts in project management tell you not to do this.

However the rail industry really does not learn. Same issues over and over again.
Fair enough, maybe they are getting their comms wrong, but I even if they did fall over themselves with updates all they'd get is indifference from the public and a burst of negative headlines. But you're quite right, it would be the decent thing to do.

I'm probably not the best contributor to this section of the thread since, as I said above, I'm really not fussed until such time as I'm personally inconvenienced by the delays to the programme, and in that sense I'm probably representative of 95% of the travelling public. The inadequacy of current Scotrail stock has been with us for near on 30 years one way or another and isn't something that's been caused by holdups to the HSTs.
 

jingsmonty

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The problem with a lot of Highland Main Line trains around peak times is that they stop at stations within the big city commuter area, such as Stirling, Dunblane, Fife etc. That’s what makes them overcrowded.

I get the 17:41 EDB-INV and it’s always full of Kirkcaldy and Markinch commuters.
This is a bugbear of all long-distance travellers, I'm sure! With the new local services, I'd hope that the long distance trains would make fewer 'commuter' stops. The 1509 & 1811 Glasgow QS - Inverness are guilty of this too, although this is a legacy of these trains being added a few years ago & taking the path of local trains. The 1741 from Edinburgh should just be 'Edinburgh, Haymarket , Edb Gateway (maybe), Kircaldy, Perth - it is already a limited stopper North from Perth.

The whole timetable should be rejigged once the HSTs are fully in service (although without the Northern/GTR debacle, please....).!
 

43096

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As a passenger fed up of 2 car trains on “Inter7City” services long after HSTs should be in use, because TS have been caught out, FOI may be interesting.
“Long after”? I think you need to check the facts and stop the hyperbole. The franchise agreement says acceptance of the first two sets was planned for June 2018, with deliveries then through to December 2018. So even by the original plan we’d be in the early stages of roll out now - not “long after”.
 

47271

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This is a bugbear of all long-distance travellers, I'm sure! With the new local services, I'd hope that the long distance trains would make fewer 'commuter' stops. The 1509 & 1811 Glasgow QS - Inverness are guilty of this too, although this is a legacy of these trains being added a few years ago & taking the path of local trains. The 1741 from Edinburgh should just be 'Edinburgh, Haymarket , Edb Gateway (maybe), Kircaldy, Perth - it is already a limited stopper North from Perth.

The whole timetable should be rejigged once the HSTs are fully in service (although without the Northern/GTR debacle, please....).!
Good point on the extension to Inverness of the Perth semi fasts - six or seven years ago some of the trains we complain about being full of commuters were available only to commuters. HML passengers had to ram on to equally full Aberdeen services and change at Perth. So things do get better sometimes.

As I understand it from the drafts I've seen the only HML HST stops south of Perth will be Kirkcaldy and Stirling. Gateway is whole separate heated debate of its own. I don't know about Aberdeen trains, I haven't taken an interest in where they'll stop.
 
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“Long after”? I think you need to check the facts and stop the hyperbole. The franchise agreement says acceptance of the first two sets was planned for June 2018, with deliveries then through to December 2018. So even by the original plan we’d be in the early stages of roll out now - not “long after”.

So we’ll see them all here by December then? :rolleyes:
Yes. Long after is fair comment. There’s still all the train crew training to come, so first set in service in September at the earliest?

3 months is long after, particularly after losing even more 170s and 158s making the shortformed services worse.

All very easy being a distance know it all keyboard warrior who doesn’t have to use the services...
 

najaB

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There’s still all the train crew training to come, so first set in service in September at the earliest?
The drivers are already trained and I believe that the guards have been trained on a static unit. So any training period should be very brief.
 

Stopper

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This is a bugbear of all long-distance travellers, I'm sure! With the new local services, I'd hope that the long distance trains would make fewer 'commuter' stops. The 1509 & 1811 Glasgow QS - Inverness are guilty of this too, although this is a legacy of these trains being added a few years ago & taking the path of local trains. The 1741 from Edinburgh should just be 'Edinburgh, Haymarket , Edb Gateway (maybe), Kircaldy, Perth - it is already a limited stopper North from Perth.

The whole timetable should be rejigged once the HSTs are fully in service (although without the Northern/GTR debacle, please....).!

I don’t think Kirkcaldy should be a stop on the 17:41 to be honest. It has plenty of Fife Circle & Dundee services that hour, the same hour as the Loco services as well.

They have options, while Perth/Inverness passengers don’t.
 

mde

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My experience of project management is exactly the same as Paul Kerr. Once you set a programme you update the stakeholders regularly. Good PM’s do this as a matter of course. It is especially important to get the right message out in the event of delay, most projects experience some delay through the cycle.
The stakeholders in this case would be Transport Scotland, the ORR and Network Rail (system operator), no?

The end-user customer is a stakeholder in the finished product as they will be using it; but, distributing technical updates beforehand isn't necessarily going to be of benefit to them, other than to the vocal minority on forums and such like. Sure, we'd like them, but, it really isn't necessary to have a public relations person shouting from the rooftops every time there is a delay, especially when it has no effect on the service currently being provided.
 

dgl

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I suppose one issue with announcing to the public that there are delays with the upgrading of these old trains is that you may then get the public questioning why they didn't just buy new rather than spending load of cash on trains that to all intents and purposes are falling apart.
Better to keep quiet and have passengers get a nice surprise when they are eventually delivered esp. if most of the travelling public are not aware these trains are coming.
 

43096

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So we’ll see them all here by December then? :rolleyes:
Yes. Long after is fair comment. There’s still all the train crew training to come, so first set in service in September at the earliest?

3 months is long after, particularly after losing even more 170s and 158s making the shortformed services worse.

All very easy being a distance know it all keyboard warrior who doesn’t have to use the services...
Ah, I see. Someone points out the facts and because it is doesn’t support your view, you resort to insults.
 

Paul Kerr

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Ah, I see. Someone points out the facts and because it is doesn’t support your view, you resort to insults.

With all due respect to you, I don't think he was being insulting, and I certainly was not with my post above about project management and communication either. However, to be frank, if you look at the project delivery curve on this, the late delivery of the first sets does not bode well at all for the project delivery. You typically have a small number of activities on the front end of the project and then activity ramps up to maintain schedule. The fact that the first sets are late means you have to pile up a ton of activities to get the project back on track. To have met the schedule of December 2018 that would have driven (approximately) delivery of one set per week between May and November, would it not? With the best will in the world, the project is significantly behind. Everyone can see that. We're not even close to achieving delivery of all sets in December.

The project I am working on is a "first of kind" treatment system so management have been more forgiving on us than they might have been with other projects. It's understood there will be delays due to technical challenges. The same applies with the HST conversions due to differences in coaching stock construction and other issues that have been elucidated on this forum and I for one appreciate your technical insights. Believe me, I get it, and I know that people are working hard to get this right. However, the lack of communication seen with the HST delivery would not be forgiven by my management. People don't expect a daily or weekly update, but some openness on why the conversions are late, the plan to address said issues and a revised completion date surely cannot be too much to ask, can it?
 

Paul Kerr

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The stakeholders in this case would be Transport Scotland, the ORR and Network Rail (system operator), no?

The end-user customer is a stakeholder in the finished product as they will be using it; but, distributing technical updates beforehand isn't necessarily going to be of benefit to them, other than to the vocal minority on forums and such like. Sure, we'd like them, but, it really isn't necessary to have a public relations person shouting from the rooftops every time there is a delay, especially when it has no effect on the service currently being provided.

You illustrate my point exactly with what's gone wrong here. I agree with you that the end customers don't want or need a detailed blow by blow account of why things are behind but at least a simple high level executive summary of what is being done (the recovery plan) and when the finished product will arrive (the revised schedule) should be provided, should it not? That's what is provided to senior managers on projects like the one I work on. It keeps everyone informed without bogging them down with the technical details. Saying that we're not going to communicate anything because we assume they don't want to know would not fly in the industry I work in.
 

Highland37

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It can be seen by the industry responders on here the culture is not one of transparency rather one of secrecy and deflection.

Sadly this chimes with the Abiello ScotRail customer experience. They still haven’t worked out who there customers actually are.

I am with you on that. The culture of Scotrail communication is that of a student brought up on rubbish like "The Apprentice".

I have asked them various specific question which they never answer but spend time putting smilies into the message. I know they could find out but they attempt to deflect the issue and I have subsequently found the answers through other means.

The current question is will the HST power cars accept tandems on end to end journeys?

:p:!::E<D:E<(:'(:'(:{:wub:
 

scotraildriver

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I can't see tandems being accommodated. Putting one in the bike rack would block assess to other equipment such as the emergency coupler and engine room/fire system. I may be wrong but seeing the layout I doubt it.
 

Northhighland

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The stakeholders in this case would be Transport Scotland, the ORR and Network Rail (system operator), no?

The end-user customer is a stakeholder in the finished product as they will be using it; but, distributing technical updates beforehand isn't necessarily going to be of benefit to them, other than to the vocal minority on forums and such like. Sure, we'd like them, but, it really isn't necessary to have a public relations person shouting from the rooftops every time there is a delay, especially when it has no effect on the service currently being provided.

Your post illustrates my point. No understanding of why you need to treat the fare paying passenger and the tax paying public as stakeholders in the industry.

Rail has trousered large amounts of taxpayers cash and not delivered the improvements in service. There is considerable disquiet amongst the public.

Would be so much more sensible to keep speaking to your customers. Explain what has gone wrong and more importantly what is being done to get the project under control.

Instead we get the normal disdain for the public. Which is why the current system of franchising doesn’t work.

Sooner or later taxpayers will say enough is enough. Rail has so much to learn about stakeholder and customer engagement.
 

Class83

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I don’t think Kirkcaldy should be a stop on the 17:41 to be honest. It has plenty of Fife Circle & Dundee services that hour, the same hour as the Loco services as well.

They have options, while Perth/Inverness passengers don’t.

Generally the 'commuter' services leaving Edinburgh and Glasgow full and standing during rush hour so it's not possible to make more people get on an already full train, there are only 2 'commuter' services from Edinburgh to Kirkcaldy and from Glasgow to Stirling between 1700-1800. Stirling and Kirkcaldy stops are also needed to allow passengers heading North from there some option to board.
 

mde

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Your post illustrates my point. No understanding of why you need to treat the fare paying passenger and the tax paying public as stakeholders in the industry.
Actually, my post detailed my interpretation of who the stakeholders are at stages. The fare paying passenger (as in end user) is a stakeholder in the finished product, e.g. what runs on the service at a given time. It seems to be somewhat folly to argue that the fare paying passenger is a stakeholder in an engineering works project at Wabtec. They have a vested interest in the works being completed, but, are they a stakeholder on the provision of the HST engineering works? That's debatable.

The stakeholders in such a project would (likely) be the ROSCO (Angel), the lessee (Abellio ScotRail), and, the authority granting the Franchise (e.g. Transport Scotland and the Scottish Ministers). I've added the ROSCO as I neglected to do so previously, but, their relevance is significant given they own the assets. ORR and NR would also have interests, e.g. in any certifications and track access.

The passenger interests are represented by their representatives in Parliament, the public servants at the Authority, and, of course, by bodies such as Transport Focus. Those bodies could certainly ask for detailed progress reports, and, might very well do so if they have interests (e.g. TS in upholding any commitments under the Franchise Agreement.

You might find that document to be of use - Schedule 6.2 on page 338 relates to the 'Inter-city' stock, parts that might be of interest could be section 3 para 3.2 and 3.3 (page 340), 9 (page 344), 10 (page 345). There's also a delivery schedule on page 346 outlining 'proposed' dates, however, clearly there is slippage. Appendix 2 (page 348) might also be of general interest as it covers the actual technical works.

You could ask Transport Scotland, via FOI, to disclose any relevant information they hold - equally, you could also ask your MSP to contact Abellio or TS (perhaps via the Transport minister) for a substantive update.

Until there's useful information to share however, I doubt there will be a all-encompassing release from Abellio or TS indicating the state of the project - other than the usual 'more to follow' type releases. It makes sense to share useful information at the earliest opportunity, but, what purpose would an update serve if there isn't useful information available, other than being slightly specious?

Useful information could be details of when they expect the first completed unit to go into service, but, given the coaching stock has only just arrived, there is perhaps still too many moving parts to know that just yet (e.g. have enough staff been trained, is Haymarket ready to do maintenance, are the trades union reps happy and so on).

Rail has trousered large amounts of taxpayers cash and not delivered the improvements in service. There is considerable disquiet amongst the public.
Can you cite a source for that 'considerable disquiet', other than anecdotal evidence on these forums (and the echo chamber of social media)?

Even a publicly owned TOC (see ref LNER) is a commercial entity - there are limits to what will be made generally available when it could harm commercial interests. Likewise, it might not be in the 'public interest' either, as, the Authority could then have difficulty pursuing suitable redress.

Nationalisation wouldn't change the scenario being faced here - you'd just be transferring control to Transport Scotland or a new Executive Agency. It'd be the same people, doing the same job, with a different name on the door. And, it'd still be ran commercially, just like other state owned transport operators.

I'd stress that I have no stake in this other than as a customer, but, some of the comments on this thread appear to amount to hyperbole, or, are hankering back to the nostalgic days of the past.
 
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