Southern 313s and 508s

[fgwrich]

Yes forgot to mention. Several 442s are taking over some Brighton express routes. To stop confusion southern are removing the "gatwick" from the "gatwick express" on the selected units. The rest of the unrefurb units will also be done into Gatex.

So the brighton express trains will be the same livery as GatEX but will just say Express

HHHMMM...still, i personally think interior wise they should be re-configured to a more relaxed interior layout with more tables...And, just like FGW are currently doing, introduce a Mini Buffet in one of the coaches since the main Buffet & Snug areas have been ripped out...

Oh and replace all the Brighton Fast 3 car Electrostats with 442's...


something to suggest to you Southern mate perhaps...or could i suggest that and others?

rich

 

[Drsatan]

Oh and replace all the Brighton Fast 3 car Electrostats with 442's...


rich

There are only 19 442s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_442) in service with Southern at the moment so, including the need for two units to operate in multiple most of the time, there might not be enough units.

 

[Fincra5]

Hopefully after overhaul and refurb there should be 24 trains in southern hands.

 

[Fincra5]

I was looking at photoshop of a class 313 in southern livery (attached) and it looks good but i beielve that the green in between the carriages ends shorter than it does in the picture

But otherwise its very good

 

[fgwrich]

I was looking at photoshop of a class 313 in southern livery (attached) and it looks good but i beielve that the green in between the carriages ends shorter than it does in the picture

But otherwise its very good

Well...i was just working from a Souther 455/456 at the time...

 

[Fincra5]

I know and it was still a good 'shop

Can't wait to see the liveries applied to them .

If southern have any sence they will use the comfortable seating which is being taken out of the 377/3s, put some new material on and whack them in the 313s and 508s

 

[jon0844]

I have to say that I do think the green colouring does NOT age well. When I went on a relatively new 377 on a press trip, to use their Wi-Fi service, the trains looked amazing. Now they look worn out and the colouring doesn't help hide any of the wear at all.

I thought the same on the 360s Great Eastern trains too - new trains that look so old on the inside after no time at all.

 

[Fincra5]

I have to say that I do think the green colouring does NOT age well. When I went on a relatively new 377 on a press trip, to use their Wi-Fi service, the trains looked amazing. Now they look worn out and the colouring doesn't help hide any of the wear at all.

I thought the same on the 360s Great Eastern trains too - new trains that look so old on the inside after no time at all.

I know what you mean. The connex spec ones which are the the 377/3s have blue and grey seats (i think) and these dont look worn out. I think that the southern 'Austroturf' green seats are made of cheap and thin material.

 

[fgwrich]

I know what you mean. The connex spec ones which are the the 377/3s have blue and grey seats (i think) and these dont look worn out. I think that the southern 'Austroturf' green seats are made of cheap and thin material.

Ive literally found various grades of sandpaper more comfortable than the Southern Seats!

No Joke!

As for the 508's, heres an idea, reduce the number of 313s coming with, by replacing them with the 508/3s...although there is only 3 of them, 1 is currently in store at the works... with the other 2 now out of use at wilsden after replacement with 378s...

So Southern could take those almost instantly aswell, the sort out refurbishment detials with say wolverton for a refurb of a series of 15 508s...

rich

 

[Fincra5]

DOes anyone know how many 377s the 313s and 508s will replace on the Brighton-seaford, Brighton- West Worthing and Littlehampton-Bogner.

I know Brighton-Seaford is 2.

 

[RobShipway]

I think there are 8 class 377's being replaced by the 313's & 508's.

 

[acg5324]

2 class 313's have arrived at Stewarts Lane under cover of darkness! earlier this week. I expect this for inspection to be made regarding work on the refurbishment. They are not expected in service much before 2011.

 

[JustinStacey.x]

I think there are 8 class 377's being replaced by the 313's & 508's.

Why are relatively modern trains being replaced by relatively old and crap trains like 313/508s?

 

[Aictos]

2 class 313's have arrived at Stewarts Lane under cover of darkness! earlier this week. I expect this for inspection to be made regarding work on the refurbishment. They are not expected in service much before 2011.

Why so long before putting them back into service? Didn't take half as long for the ex LM 321s to be used on the FCC services.

Unless they're being refurbished with everything being ripped out and replaced?

 

[jon0844]

There can't be that much to strip out either, as they are very open and airy - which is probably why they don't feel anywhere near as old as they are (or other rolling stock will look when they're the same age).

New wall panels, vinyl flooring, new seat backs, CCTV (I think they have that already) and CIS - job done. Give me the weekend and I'll do that myself.

(One must guess the real changes will be underneath the train!)

 

[westcoaster]

i think the problem with the 313's going to southern will be all the ac gear on the unit, if this is to be removed (one would guess so as they are intended to work on dc services only), you have to take off the transformer/pan/smothing choke/rectifier/ht cables/train control circuits/wiring then include the refurb, there is alot of work to be done before they can enter service. obviously the easier thing to do would be to just take the pan off/lock it down.

 

[SWT Driver]

Or just disconnect the button/switch in the cab!

 

[jon0844]

I can imagine you might remove the pantograph and 'fill it in' with a cover, but otherwise surely you'd just disable everything else - otherwise what is the cost of removing it all, and possibly reinstating it when the trains move somewhere else in the future.

The 313s will probably be working forever, and if we ever find life on another planet and all move there, I am sure we'll be taking them with us.

 

[JustinStacey.x]

^Same for Glasgow 314s, they were allegedly getting scrapped this year, now they're being kept on another 6 or so years! Why anyone would want to get rid of these babies is an idea I can't fathom :cry:

 

[RobShipway]

My thought is that is that they may end up with FGW if they don't get Class 319's for some reason once the GW has been electrified!!:eek:

 

[jon0844]

313s can't go as fast as 319s (well, I'd say they probably can - but not 'legally') so that's probably their only downfall as we upgrade the railway network to hopefully make 100mph the bare minimum!

313s on FCC probably go between 50-70mph tops, but get them out on the fast line and... say no more!

 

[JustinStacey.x]

313s, 314s, 315s, 507s and 508s have a maximum official speed of 75MPH. I've been in a 314 doing around that and I wouldn't want to be in one going any faster; the doors rattle, it makes a hell of a noise, rocks a little and generally feels like it doesn't want to go any faster. 317s, 318s, 319s on the other hand have faster maximum speeds (according to wikipedia it's 100, 90, 100 respectively) and I know that our 318s around here feel much more solid even at those higher speeds. I would be very surprised if a 313 or any of its family can even make it to 90 without rattling itself to buggery.

 

[Aictos]

313s on FCC probably go between 50-70mph tops, but get them out on the fast line and... say no more!

Would be far better and more accurate to say between 30mph and 75mph as their operating speeds for the FCC 313s.

While operating on DC in the NCL, the 313s are restricted to 30mph and while operating on AC everywhere else, they operate to the maximum permitted speed which is 75mph.

However while I'm sure the speedos are marked up to 90mph, there are speed restricters onboard which restrict the top speed to 75mph.

Take the 365s for example, now they can easily top 100mph as they are more then capable of reaching 110mph but are restricted by onboard equipment.

 

[jon0844]

Unless used on a handful of semi-fast services each day, I really don't think they get above the range I mentioned (and I forgot about the Finsbury Park to Moorgate) in most use.

And it's only been once in 6 years of regular commuting that I've seen a 313 pushed out on to the fast line to pass a broken down train at Potters Bar, but the speed suggests the limiter was most certainly NOT working on that particular train!!

Out of interest, why is there a limit on the 365s? Is it down to the extra energy required at high speed, or a safety case based on how quickly it can stop? I'd have thought that on the fast lines, being able to top out at 110 or so would have many benefits.

(Edit: The 313 that was making up for lost time wasn't rattling at all. I wonder if it reaches a point of resonance/vibration and once it goes beyond, it's back to being super smooth again? Rather like an old XR2 I once owned that was horrible at 60-70mph, but was fine when you reached 90. Sadly, I am not sure the brakes would have been much use then!)

 

[JustinStacey.x]

Unless used on a handful of semi-fast services each day, I really don't think they get above the range I mentioned (and I forgot about the Finsbury Park to Moorgate) in most use.

And it's only been once in 6 years of regular commuting that I've seen a 313 pushed out on to the fast line to pass a broken down train at Potters Bar, but the speed suggests the limiter was most certainly NOT working on that particular train!!

I think you might be pleasantly surprised actually how fast the train was going. Older trains like the 313s and her family feel a LOT faster than they actually are because they don't shut out half as much noise and vibration as newer trains do. Newer trains or intercity trains you often feel like you are going slower because they are better protected against the elements. I can attest to this being true because on my local line the class 314s do the same run as the 318s/334s do earlier in the day. It will go the same speed, stops at the same stations and the journey takes the same length of time, but it would appear that the 314 is absolutely hoofing it which compared to the 334 at the same linespeeds is relatively unremarkable.

Out of interest, why is there a limit on the 365s? Is it down to the extra energy required at high speed, or a safety case based on how quickly it can stop? I'd have thought that on the fast lines, being able to top out at 110 or so would have many benefits.

Obviously I am not a driver or anything but I would imagine the limits are imposed because the train will only be designed to go that fast, and going any faster may cause it to become unstable on the tracks, or unstable because it's not as aerodynamic as other, faster trains. It's like the engine on your car may take it up to 120, but I don't think you'd like to drive it at that for very long because if you hit a slight bump your chances of losing control are much, much greater. I know that a lot of trains in Britain have, stupidly, blunt ends, so I can't imagine its very stable at anything more than 100MPH! Having a governer on how fast the train can go will also help its longevity. If you push a car engine to within an inch of its life; sure it'll go fast, but it will probably end up knackered very quickly. if you were to limit it to, say, 80% of its capacity, it would decrease wear. I can't imagine driving a 313 at 100MPH (even if it was possible, which I *highly* doubt, unless you were going downhill with a strong tailwind) is very good for the traction motors.

 

[Fincra5]

Why so long before putting them back into service? Didn't take half as long for the ex LM 321s to be used on the FCC services.

Unless they're being refurbished with everything being ripped out and replaced?

Basically everything is being ripped out and replaced, much like the class 455 refub.

Not sure about the AC equipment, there were talks of having it removed. However probabaly not likely as it will be costly and will remove the option of using it on OHLE lines in the future.

 

[jon0844]

I think you might be pleasantly surprised actually how fast the train was going.

I understand what you're saying, and you are right in what you say, but on another forum, some drivers had pointed out that a 313 can manage a lot more. I think you can tell when a train is going significantly faster than usual.

I've also had GPS confirm a Mk4 GNER train doing a pretty steady 140mph on a stretch of the ECML (before Peterborough), suggesting that any limiters can either be circumnavigated or don't always work!

 

[MCR247]

Have you ever considered the GPS was wrong? I'm not saying it is wrong, but you cant always believe the GPS!

 

[JustinStacey.x]

I understand what you're saying, and you are right in what you say, but on another forum, some drivers had pointed out that a 313 can manage a lot more. I think you can tell when a train is going significantly faster than usual.

Were these actually drivers or people on the Internet that claim to be drivers and in reality don't have a clue what they're talking about? Can you also cite these sources?

I've also had GPS confirm a Mk4 GNER train doing a pretty steady 140mph on a stretch of the ECML (before Peterborough), suggesting that any limiters can either be circumnavigated or don't always work!

Odd, considering linespeeds in the UK have a maximum of 125 and any driver caught doing even a fraction over that would probably be bollocked for it.

C'mon... you're gonna have to try harder than that to convince me.

 

[O L Leigh]

Trains don't have speed limiters.

There is a maximum speed imposed and the driver is expected to stick to it. If you get downloaded going faster than the train's permitted maximum speed (irrespective of the permitted linespeed) you will still be "pinged" for speeding. That's not to say that you can't physically make the train go faster, but you're flirting with disciplinary action by doing so.

Back to the Cl313's, I can't see much point in removing all the AC gear. Sure it will save a bit of weight, but they aren't exactly lardy units to start off with. However, isolating the AC gear is simplicity itself. You just turn the Pan and VCB air isolating cocks and then take the handles off. That way you can't raise the pan and can't close the VCB and, without the handles, you can't reinstate the air supply. A solitary fitter could easily do the whole lot in a single night at no extra cost to the company.

O L Leigh