Departing on full power?

[JustinStacey.x]

In reality, I understand that it's virtually impossible/impractical for the 'big trains' to leave a station on full power as they would have a lot of wheelslip, however, I am aware that it is possible to do so on multiple units, so long as the area is not of poor adhesion. But how many drivers actually do it? I was talking to a 156 driver the other day who kindly showed me the cab who said they tend to take it up to notch 3, then up to 5 when there is a bit of motion and finally up to 7 when some speed has been made, apparently it saves a good bit of diesel. I've also been on a Sprinter that was absolutely hoofing it out of stations (by the sound of the engines and acceleration, I'm positive he was just putting it right into full power) and the 314s seem to be treated similarly when on the Inverclyde line, especially after the red signal just beyond Inverkip.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well I do it most of the time, unless leaving a terminus station where there is usually a 15mph blanket speed restriction. I'll keep a step 1 brake application while doing my station duties then, once the doors are shut, I'll take notch 1 power against the brake. Then I just release the brake and give it the beans.

While I don't "sign" any diesel units I have had a brief go on a Cl153 when I did my low adhesion training. These units benefit from having almost double the number of power notches compared to electric units (7 for diesels compared to 4 for electrics). This means that there is more scope for a driver to select a lower notch and still extract the same performance.

That said, up to about 20mph there isn't much to choose between notch 2 and notch 4 power on an electric unit. Notching up also helps to reduce the chance of wheelspin under poor rail conditions, and at no additional cost in terms of lost time.

O L Leigh

 

[RPM]

On a 165 or a 168 it is normal practice to go straight in at notch 4. If you start below that it will be painfully slow and you run the risk of rolling back on a rising gradient. I ususally go up to notch 5 as soon as the train starts moving then notch 6 at about 10mph and notch 7 at 15 to 20 mph. In theory there is nothing to stop you going straight in at notch 7 but it is frowned upon officially and would raise questions if it showed up on a download too often. It certainly shows a lack of finesse in my opinion, although I can only speak for the traction I sign - things are different with locomotives, EMUs etc.

 

[JustinStacey.x]

Well I do it most of the time, unless leaving a terminus station where there is usually a 15mph blanket speed restriction. I'll keep a step 1 brake application while doing my station duties then, once the doors are shut, I'll take notch 1 power against the brake. Then I just release the brake and give it the beans.

Is that so the train doesn't roll? I was under the impression that while the brake is applied the power lever has no effect, and you have to release all brakes in order to apply power.

Judging by the noises the EMU trains make in Glasgow and surrounding areas the drivers here tend to 'step up' rather than just going into full power, but I think that's because there are some poor adhesion areas around here.

 

[driver9000]

On the DMUs I sign traction power is available with the brake in step 1 to prevent the train rolling back. I tend to start off in notch 2 and gradually notch up reaching full power by around 15-20mph conditions dependent. On newer stock such as the 175 and 180 if you open up too quickly the computer prevents power being applied so you end up having to shut off and open up again. To prevent combined handle trains rolling back there is a brake hold over button on the handle
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having to fully release the brake on DMUs to take power is an anomaly on bve.

 

[O L Leigh]

Is that so the train doesn't roll? I was under the impression that while the brake is applied the power lever has no effect, and you have to release all brakes in order to apply power.

That's exactly the reason.

Going for a brake step higher than 1 will cut the power, but you need to be able to take power against the brake in step 1 if you're on a gradient to prevent the train from rolling. This is especially the case on a diesel unit where there is actually quite a delay between opening the throttle and the engine spooling up. I'm used to instant power, so having to wait even a second or two seemed like an age.

O L Leigh

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I am sure all EMUs and DMUs had a thing to detect and stop wheel-slip from happening these days but the name of the "thing" has gone out my head!

 

[asylumxl]

I am sure all EMUs and DMUs had a thing to detect and stop wheel-slip from happening these days?

Yes, its similar to ABS for cars.

 

[JustinStacey.x]

i am sure all emus and dmus had a thing to detect and stop wheel-slip from happening these days but the name of the "thing" has gone out my head!

wsp?

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I think there called tachometers and are used to provide the stopping of wheel-slip correct me if I am wrong anyone.

 

[90019]

I think there called tachometers and are used to provide the stopping of wheel-slip correct me if I am wrong anyone.

A tachometer is just a gauge. Most cars have them (rev counter).

 

[SouthEastern-465]

A tachometer is a gauge. Most cars have them (rev counter).

I was going by wikipedia so there wrong?

 

[90019]

I was going by wikipedia so there wrong?

A tachometer could be part of the system, but there will be more to it.

 

[SWT Driver]

wsp?

Correct!

WSP has two purposes, one to detect Wheel Slide & the other Wheel Spin.

On 158/9's it will allow a certain amount before taking the power away, if the driver doesn't do anything about it, then AFAICR lock it out & the engine will revert to idling.

On a EMU such as a 455, it will operate the line switches or the OLR will operate & the unit will lose power, this is where hand notching comes into play.

However more modern traction have more intelligent traction systems (such as ONIX) which detects spin and reduces the power to the affected wheels, the driver can leave the power handle more or less where he/she likes & let the electronic jiggery-pokery do the work.

Wheel Slide, actuates the equivalent of ABS of a car, in most cases the blow-down valves to release & apply the wheel extremely quickly, so to regain grip.

 

[Demps]

While I don't "sign" any diesel units

why don't you?

 

[MCR247]

Probably because there isnt any diesel trains on NXEAs suburban fleet

 

[466.networkers]

Only except the 156s and 170s ...

 

[MCR247]

suburban fleet is what I said. 156s go no where near London, and 170s are on express services..

 

[TDK]

On Diesels such as class 67's it is more economical and also more eficiant to notch up,reaching notch 7 at about 20mph as the diesel engine drives electric traction motors, you look at the ammeter and when it peaks notch up, as for units I always notched up in electrics and diesel, it is in the professional driving policy so I did it. You can whack it into the top notch immediately but this is deemed as poor driving practice.

 

[AlexS]

I have it on pretty good authority that many of EMTs 153s are so knackered that notch 5 is necessary to get them to move at all, and that notch 6 or even 7 is required on the worst examples!

Wreckage!

 

[O L Leigh]

WSP doesn't stop a train from rolling when the brake is released.

Oh, and I don't "sign" any diesel units because there are no diesel services on the West Anglia division. It's an all-electric service.

O L Leigh

 

[Muttley]

I am sure all EMUs and DMUs had a thing to detect and stop wheel-slip from happening these days but the name of the "thing" has gone out my head!

Talk about a two-tier railway.

Ooop North we appear to be about a generation behind you Southies, so no WSP, ABS, CSR, GSM-R, etc etc etc

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Talk about a two-tier railway.

Ooop North we appear to be about a generation behind you Southies, so no WSP, ABS, CSR, GSM-R, etc etc etc

Is this true?!!!

 

[Muttley]

Oh yes.

 

[driver9000]

Talk about a two-tier railway.

Ooop North we appear to be about a generation behind you Southies, so no WSP, ABS, CSR, GSM-R, etc etc etc

Not true.

ABS is for road vehicles the rail version being WSP.
WSP is fitted to 158, 170, 175, 180, 323, 333, 220, 221, 390 and quite a few others too.
GSM-R is currently in use in Scotland (Strathclyde) and the southern end of the WCML from Rugby as far north as Congleton and Basford Hall. As far as Im aware these are the only locations to use GSM-R at present.
CSR is in use on DOO services in Scotland around Glasgow otherwise NRN is sufficiant until GSM-R becomes the main system in 2012.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Not true.

ABS is for road vehicles the rail version being WSP.
WSP is fitted to 158, 170, 175, 180, 323, 333, 220, 221, 390 and quite a few others too.
GSM-R is currently in use in Scotland (Strathclyde) and the southern end of the WCML from Rugby as far north as Congleton and Basford Hall. As far as Im aware these are the only locations to use GSM-R at present.
CSR is in use on DOO services in Scotland around Glasgow otherwise NRN is sufficiant until GSM-R becomes the main system in 2012.

What about Class 150s and Class 153s?

 

[driver9000]

142s, 150s and 153s are not fitted with Wheel Slide Protection only Wheel Slip. A couple of companies have fitted manual sanders to their 150 and 156 fleets though these are an exception rather than the norm in those fleets

 

[RPM]

Some DMU classes have emergency one-shot sanders fitted I believe.
165s and 168s have automatic sanding when wheel slide is detected but it only activates in brake step 3 or 4. Traction sanding is available when wheel slip is detected but is activated by the driver. The sanding button lights up to show when it can be used.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

About Locos, You can depart on a 67 wide and you'll really really struggle to overload it. So yes, you can wide a loco from start and it won't overload.

 

[ianthescot]

In reality, I understand that it's virtually impossible/impractical for the 'big trains' to leave a station on full power as they would have a lot of wheelslip, however, I am aware that it is possible to do so on multiple units, so long as the area is not of poor adhesion. But how many drivers actually do it? I was talking to a 156 driver the other day who kindly showed me the cab who said they tend to take it up to notch 3, then up to 5 when there is a bit of motion and finally up to 7 when some speed has been made, apparently it saves a good bit of diesel. I've also been on a Sprinter that was absolutely hoofing it out of stations (by the sound of the engines and acceleration, I'm positive he was just putting it right into full power) and the 314s seem to be treated similarly when on the Inverclyde line, especially after the red signal just beyond Inverkip.

We're taught to save power by using notch 2 till 5mph, 3 till 10mph and then 4 (EMU) and 3,5 then 7 on DMU. Most drivers follow this (or something similar) but some don't follow the guidelines (though when downloaded they will probably be asked why not). Works well except in some locations (e.g. Rutherglen UL where there is a neutral section just after the station and so I make sure it's notch 4 to make sure I get through it!)

Regarding the other comments about applying the brakes when applying power, the brake control usually only cuts the power when in step 2 or above. This allows similar to a car hill start with the handbrake on so you can apply power while the brake is in step 1 and then once power starts to be delivered then you can take the brake off to prevent rolling back. In a unit with only a PBC (such as a 334), there is a hill start button on the power controller so you can apply power while having your thumb on the hill start button and once power is felt, then release the hill start button. At the training school and also out with our DIs we are always expected to apply power with the brake at step 1 or the hill start button depressed.