Electrification of Northern Wales

[Bigndaft]

Afternoon all,

Apologies is this has already been asked previously. With all of the major upgrading that NR are currently rolling out, is there any plans to electrify the Northern Wales routes?

 

[Bertie the bus]

It's unlikely to happen for decades, if ever. I'm not even sure who would pay for it as rail in Wales is now largely devolved - the UK government or the Welsh Assembly.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not even sure who would pay for it as rail in Wales is now largely devolved - the UK government or the Welsh Assembly.

In an ideal world it would probably be both as the benefits would be felt by both Wales and England.

 

[Aictos]

In an ideal world it would probably be both as the benefits would be felt by both Wales and England.

One option is DfT funds to Chester with Wales funding to Holyhead.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A well ploughed field , which despite numerous studies , has yielded very little (nil ?) progress.

As part of the Virgin West Coast 1996 franchise , they were asked to (and did) provide an estimate for electrification through to Holyhead. Report done , and filed.

If you look at at what happened between Cardiff and Swansea (arguably a much busier corridor for Inter City , with options of turning over other services to electric traction) - then the case for North Wales is very much weaker.

The further west you go , the less is the (passenger) traffic , freight is effectively dead.

Even Crewe - Chester suffers due to a split service provision between the IC and regional operation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Wales & Borders franchise has just been re-let for 15 years with no plan for electrification outside the South Wales Valleys network (and not all of that).
So that's it until 2033.
The only factor which might change that is HS2 and its integration with the existing West Coast IC services to Chester/North Wales.
Currently there are no plans to electrify Crewe-Chester, which would be the start of this.
HS2 people studiously ignore the Chester/North Wales route in their maps of through services.

 

[Bertie the bus]

In an ideal world it would probably be both as the benefits would be felt by both Wales and England.

As we no longer fight the Irish or send mail by rail I don't see how the English would benefit from electrifying this route.

 

[Chester1]

The Welsh Government funded a report recently which said there was a good business case for Crewe-Chester but really bad for Chester-Holyhead. I think it was 0.55 if done as part of the same work as Crewe-Chester and 0.45 as part of a seperate programme. Both are terrible and combined with current electrification schemes failing Chester-Holyhead/Llandudno will not happen for a generation or more. There are far too many lines that will be done before it. I am a regular user of the line but I couldn't justify electrification. Next priority should be continuing resignalling to Llandudno and Holyhead (the recent project was cut back to Llandudno Junction).

 

[Lucan]

The further west you go , the less is the (passenger) traffic , freight is effectively dead.

That did not stop them building the motorway standard A55 (N.Wales Expressway) across Anglesey not so long ago, even though it is almost empty of traffic most of the time. I assume it was an EU sop to Ireland.

 

[Polarbear]

There would also be a few technical challenges in electrifying from Crewe towards North Wales. Limited clearances on the many bridges between Crewe & Chester together with Christleton tunnel. The bridge at Conwy would also be a problem.

Realistically, I suspect if wiring to Chester were more straightforward, it nay have been done by now. Beyond Chester, I can't see any realistic business case personally.

 

[mmh]

I love the idea that the A55 is unused and empty.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I love the idea that the A55 is unused and empty.

The OP must have A) looked and looked until they found an empty streach, then used that, B) clicked street view in a random area and took it as gospel or C) the street view car came through on a quiet day/it was a quiet stretch because that's how traffic flow works.

 

[craigybagel]

That did not stop them building the motorway standard A55 (N.Wales Expressway) across Anglesey not so long ago, even though it is almost empty of traffic most of the time. I assume it was an EU sop to Ireland.

Not sure if this is trolling or real - but if you were to dump the contents of two full ferries arriving simultaneously every 6 hours on to the old single carriageway A5, then I suppose you might find a desire to electrify the coast!

In any case, as others have pointed out the only part with any kind of business case is Crewe - Chester, and that's filed very much in the "Too difficult" bin - way too many low bridges and an even lower tunnel, you might as well start with a brand new line all together then rebuild the existing route.....

 

[goatie]

it took 20+ years to infill the lines on Anglia (Romford to Upminster, Wickford to Southminster etc) most of the off shot lines from ECML are still not under the wires,
so I can't see North Wales getting wired, But then again going on previous form (over 40-50 yrs) they will put the wires up on one route and leave the rest to diesel

 

[Statto]

The tricky section to wire would be around Conwy, with the bridge then Castle tunnels being quite tight to wire, plus some other bridges might have to be raised as well.

The Anglesey section of the A55 was quite busy when i was down that way the other week.

 

[Bigndaft]

Thanks for the answers guys, it has been interesting reading your thoughts/ideas

 

[Chester1]

In any case, as others have pointed out the only part with any kind of business case is Crewe - Chester, and that's filed very much in the "Too difficult" bin - way too many low bridges and an even lower tunnel, you might as well start with a brand new line all together then rebuild the existing route.....

It is probably an ideal test for Grayling's "discontinous electrification" using neutral sections under bridges and in the tunnel. Adding small batteries to some of the Pendolinos could be viable and that would allow some Voyagers to go off lease in 2026. W&B could order an extra Stadler tri mode for the shuttle. I don't think its hugely likely but if electrification is not killed off nationally it is still a viable scheme if modified.

 

[driver_m]

It is probably an ideal test for Grayling's "discontinous electrification" using neutral sections under bridges and in the tunnel. Adding small batteries to some of the Pendolinos could be viable and that would allow some Voyagers to go off lease in 2026. W&B could order an extra Stadler tri mode for the shuttle. I don't think its hugely likely but if electrification is not killed off nationally it is still a viable scheme if modified.

You have got to be kidding. It'd be on and off that often, you'd have an epileptic fit looking at the linelight. Half of the bridges should be flattened without too much disruption anyway as they for farm use.

 

[Chester1]

You have got to be kidding. It'd be on and off that often, you'd have an epileptic fit looking at the linelight. Half of the bridges should be flattened without too much disruption anyway as they for farm use.

That would still leave the best part of 20 bridges that would need raising or replacing. If neutral sections are used what would the problem be with the pan leaving a neutral section approximately once every minute? Some bridges are sufficiently close to each other that they could be in the same neutral section.

 

[snowball]

You have got to be kidding. It'd be on and off that often, you'd have an epileptic fit looking at the linelight.

The South Wales valleys are going to be electrified with earthed sections at low bridges. The switchover will be automatic, requiring no intervention from the driver. Let's see how that goes. I suspect it will turn out to be perfectly workable.

 

[gazthomas]

I love the idea that the A55 is unused and empty.

I concur, the A55 is a busy road!

 

[Polarbear]

A quick look on Google Maps suggests 34 bridges & 1 tunnel between where the wires currently end & Chester station. Some are farm crossings which could possibly be demolished & a few (the A55 crossing just outside Chester being one) has more than adequate clearance anyway. Travelling at 90mph, it would have to be a very resilient system to cope with discontinuous electrification.

I concur, the A55 is a busy road!

I agree - at least as far as Llanfair PG. Other than when a boat comes in at Holyhead though, the last 20 miles across Anglesey can be pretty quiet.

 

[gazthomas]

I agree - at least as far as Llanfair PG. Other than when a boat comes in at Holyhead though, the last 20 miles across Anglesey can be pretty quiet.

In my mind the stretch over Anglesey will always be the A5!

 

[snowball]

In my mind the stretch over Anglesey will always be the A5!

Off topic for a rail forum, but the old (Telford's) road across Anglesey is still A5. Only the new dual carriageway on a new alignment has the new number A55.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Half of the bridges should be flattened without too much disruption anyway as they for farm use.

Farm crossings are there for a purpose, to link the land on either side and enable the farm to work efficiently. What do you propose they should be replaced with, a costly underpass, or a 5 mile detour for stock and equipment along public roads?

 

[ainsworth74]

It'd be on and off that often, you'd have an epileptic fit looking at the linelight.

Surely you should be looking at the line ahead not just the linelight?

 

[edwin_m]

Farm crossings are there for a purpose, to link the land on either side and enable the farm to work efficiently. What do you propose they should be replaced with, a costly underpass, or a 5 mile detour for stock and equipment along public roads?

Clearly not, and creating new farm crossings would be even worse! However a farm bridge is somewhat easier to replace than a road bridge as they are unlikely to carry any utilities, and probably in open country where a new bridge could be built alongside before demolishing the old one. As there is only one user it is also easier to negotiate temporary or permanent closures, and it may even be that the farmer only needs to use it at some times of year so it could be demolished and re-built when not in use.

 

[driver_m]

Surely you should be looking at the line ahead not just the linelight?

Seeing as it's also it's our Auto drop device (ADD) indicator, I really don't want to see it flashing anyway., So it would be very hard to ignore!

 

[snowball]

Seeing as it's also it's our Auto drop device (ADD) indicator, I really don't want to see it flashing anyway., So it would be very hard to ignore!

As I understand it the Welsh valleys trains will not drop their pantographs at earthed sections.

 

[driver_m]

Farm crossings are there for a purpose, to link the land on either side and enable the farm to work efficiently. What do you propose they should be replaced with, a costly underpass, or a 5 mile detour for stock and equipment along public roads?

Some of them have trees growing out of them, so I'd question their usage stats to be honest. Likewise, the solar panel farm doesn't really need to use them either seeing as the creatures don't really moo-ve.