Why times and not train numbers in UK?

[fergusjbend]

I don't know and don't care why it is "vital" information on the continent.

I don't even know what differentiating between "train types and level of service" means or why anybody would care. 1st and standard class differentiates between level of service. You don't need another pointless code to do that.

As I've already said, this thread is just "they do it abroad so they should do it here".

As opposed to your's which is "they do it abroad so we should never do it here"?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Nobody has explained how it would be useful. Some people who obviously don't understand the general public have made some very dubious claims, like yourself.

1. You don't need to know the final destination to board the corect train.
2. Reducing an announcement by a couple of words isn't a benefit and the announcements would have to be longer anyway as informing people they are on the xx:xx to YYY is far more useful information than telling them they are on train CC3456.
3. No relevance or use to anybody.
4. No relevance or use to anybody.

 

[Bertie the bus]

As opposed to your's which is "they do it abroad so we should never do it here"?

Really? Would you like to point out anything I have said that could be construed as such?

 

[DaiGog]

Nobody has explained how it would be useful. Some people who obviously don't understand the general public have made some very dubious claims, like yourself.

1. You don't need to know the final destination to board the corect train.
2. Reducing an announcement by a couple of words isn't a benefit and the announcements would have to be longer anyway as informing people they are on the xx:xx to YYY is far more useful information than telling them they are on train CC3456.
3. No relevance or use to anybody.
4. No relevance or use to anybody.

Have you actually read anything on this thread other than your own views? Several people have suggested good reasons why including unique train IDs would be beneficial to some customers. Just because you wouldn't find it useful, and assume that everybody travelling on trains in the UK has the same level of understanding as you do, doesn't mean that nobody would and that there is no reason whatsoever to do it.

And before you invite me to back up what I've said regarding your attitude in this thread, just read your own comments in relation to those of others and save me the job of cutting and pasting them all for you.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I don't know and don't care.

That much is obvious.

 

[PeterC]

I will agree with Bertie as far as suburban and metro services as well as self contained branch lines. For inter city and inter regional routes, brilliant.

 

[mallard]

From what I've seen in Europe, local services often don't have unique numbers, just route numbers (e.g. for Germany, local services might be "S 8" or "RB 35", etc.).

Longer-distance regional services have unique numbers, but these are grouped (i.e. All "ICE 3x" trains run between Hamburg and Oesterport (Denmark) with even numbers operating in one direction and odd numbers in the other). This sort of thing could work in the UK, but with our higher frequency services it might be more difficult to maintain a logical numbering system... With 96 services per day operating between Euston and Manchester, they'd need two unique digits.

Many TOCs do have a route-numbering/lettering system (e.g. VT's London-Manchester services are "route E") but these are often a bit vague (e.g. all of EMT's London servies are "route 1") and are generally just used to section up the printed timetables.

The big benefit of using something other than the timetable to identify trains is the reduction in ambiguity. At many larger stations, times aren't unique (e.g. a quick glance at some departure boards shows two 1448 departures from Leeds, two 1450s from Birmingham New Street, etc.) and the final destination of the train may not be all that useful to a passenger not familiar with the layout of the rail network and only a passing familiarity with the geography of the British Isles (both London and Herefore are "south-ish" of Birmingham...) and there are occasional situations where symaltaneous departures may be in the same direction, with common station stops or may have the same final destination (I believe there were symaltaneous Glasgow-bound departures from Birmingham at one time, one XC and one VT) which only adds to confusion.

If a passenger knows they're booked on "VT-E-73" or "XC-35" and these sorts of codes are used prominently, there's no ambiguity at all and much less scope for confusion. If a train is cancelled, all it takes in many cases is something like "Passengers booked on XC-28 should travel on XC-29, due in 30 minutes." or "Passengers booked on VT-A-29" should travel on VT-B-32 for the West Midlands or VT-F-19 for the North and Scotland" or even "Passengers booked on EMT-113, 114 or 115 may travel on any reasonable route via VT, XC or LNER. EMT-123, 124 and 125 are running as normal."

 

[AM9]

There is a difference with mainland European trains in that virtually all of those nations run at least some international services. Apart form Eurostar which does use unique 9XXX numbers (and maybe le Shuttle), all domestic rail services stay within the same UK system so there is no need to differentiate them from other systems.
The comparison with airlines isn't relevant for the same reason, i.e. domestic and international flights are homogenised in terms of ID across all major UK airports as for the rest of the world.

 

[AM9]

From what I've seen in Europe, local services often don't have unique numbers, just route numbers (e.g. for Germany, local services might be "S 8" or "RB 35", etc.).

Longer-distance regional services have unique numbers, but these are grouped (i.e. All "ICE 3x" trains run between Hamburg and Oesterport (Denmark) with even numbers operating in one direction and odd numbers in the other). This sort of thing could work in the UK, but with our higher frequency services it might be more difficult to maintain a logical numbering system... With 96 services per day operating between Euston and Manchester, they'd need two unique digits.

Many TOCs do have a route-numbering/lettering system (e.g. VT's London-Manchester services are "route E") but these are often a bit vague (e.g. all of EMT's London servies are "route 1") and are generally just used to section up the printed timetables.

The big benefit of using something other than the timetable to identify trains is the reduction in ambiguity. At many larger stations, times aren't unique (e.g. a quick glance at some departure boards shows two 1448 departures from Leeds, two 1450s from Birmingham New Street, etc.) and the final destination of the train may not be all that useful to a passenger not familiar with the layout of the rail network and only a passing familiarity with the geography of the British Isles (both London and Herefore are "south-ish" of Birmingham...) and there are occasional situations where symaltaneous departures may be in the same direction, with common station stops or may have the same final destination (I believe there were symaltaneous Glasgow-bound departures from Birmingham at one time, one XC and one VT) which only adds to confusion.

If a passenger knows they're booked on "VT-E-73" or "XC-35" and these sorts of codes are used prominently, there's no ambiguity at all and much less scope for confusion. If a train is cancelled, all it takes in many cases is something like "Passengers booked on XC-28 should travel on XC-29, due in 30 minutes." or "Passengers booked on VT-A-29" should travel on VT-B-32 for the West Midlands or VT-F-19 for the North and Scotland" or even "Passengers booked on EMT-113, 114 or 115 may travel on any reasonable route via VT, XC or LNER. EMT-123, 124 and 125 are running as normal."

Would it add to either confusion or ire if the Thameslink services were numbered according to the services identified in the early 'new' timetables, i.e. TL1, TL2 .... TL12 (I think).

 

[causton]

The services that should have these numbers already have them and they should be more prominently used, displayed and announced just like flight numbers are.

Trains that are not reservable do not have a retail service ID and do not need one so there is no need for an ID number for them.

So an easy and quick way as the system is already in place!

 

[LowLevel]

I find them quite useful abroad

Particularly for advance purchase tickets with different TOCs picking out a train number must be easier than timing.

Allow me to provide an amended example.

EMT 1142 from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street expected 3 minutes late at 1145

Northern 1146 from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street expected on time

A passenger would, I think, find it easier to differentiate between their AP ticket for train 9266.

EMT IC9266 1142 to Liverpool Lime Street
Northern S2080 1146 to Liverpool Lime Street.

If you made the train ID prominent on the ticket it would significantly reduced confusion between booked and expected times.

 

[transmanche]

I will agree with Bertie as far as suburban and metro services as well as self contained branch lines. For inter city and inter regional routes, brilliant.

In SE England, until relatively recently, many suburban and regional services displayed route numbers.

E.g. trains to/from Paddington had a system where the first digit indicated the non-Paddington terminus and the second digit generally indicated the calling pattern.

• 87 - all station to/from Slough
• 86 - all stations to/from Slough, except Acton Main Line
• 7x to/from Maidenhead?
• 6x to/from Thames Valley branches?
• 5x to/from Reading
• 3x to/from Oxford

For regular passengers, it made it quick and easy to make sure it was the right train.

Even today, RTT shows the route code for SWR services to/from Waterloo: Waterloo-Waterloo via Wimbledon, Strawberry Hill and Richmond is a 21, in the reverse direction it's a 32. It was very helpful on a services like these where the advertised destination changes en route.

 

[PeterC]

In SE England, until relatively recently, many suburban and regional services displayed route numbers.

E.g. trains to/from Paddington had a system where the first digit indicated the non-Paddington terminus and the second digit generally indicated the calling pattern.

• 87 - all station to/from Slough
• 86 - all stations to/from Slough, except Acton Main Line
• 7x to/from Maidenhead?
• 6x to/from Thames Valley branches?
• 5x to/from Reading
• 3x to/from Oxford

For regular passengers, it made it quick and easy to make sure it was the right train.

Even today, RTT shows the route code for SWR services to/from Waterloo: Waterloo-Waterloo via Wimbledon, Strawberry Hill and Richmond is a 21, in the reverse direction it's a 32. It was very helpful on a services like these where the advertised destination changes en route.

The Chiltern 165s did as well. I no longer commute so I don't know if that is still the case. I don't recall them being made public though.

 

[etr221]

The importance of train identities is to tell people which train is which, i.e. which one is theirs. Any system will do, as long as (a) it adequately does so, and (b) it is universally used. We have our system, others have theirs - and everyone finds anyone else's rather meaningless

If (to pull an example from RTT), I want to go from East Croydon to Gatwick, do I want the 2323 ECR to GTW, the 2306 VIC to HRH, 1C72, W60164 - or something else? Or all of them? any of them? What will the various sources tell me? And what will be announced when it appears?

 

[Starmill]

Calling what we have a system is a bit of an exaggeration.

If I tell you to catch the 0704 from Bromley South to London Victoria, you are none the wiser.

Someone who has never been to Birmingham before finds themselves at Snow Hill station wishing to travel to the nearby large town of Shirley, having been told to take the 1703 service to Shirley. But is it the 1703 to Whitlocks End or to Kidderminster? Most people would have absolutely no idea, and the screens do not make it clear unless you read *every single* call for both services. How many people have even heard of Whitlocks End, let alone have a clue where that train goes? IMO that's not really a 'system' it's just turn up and hope for the best.

 

[MAV39]

Must agree with MichaelAMW and Transmanche that more use of train ids/retail service ids would be beneficial.

Irregular travellers are always concerned whether the train at the platform or due to arrive shortly is 'their' train and a train id/retail service id is a very simple means of providing confirmation, particularly at times of disruption.

Many elderly travellers are also worried about the downside, both financial and otherwise from boarding a wrong train, similarly a simple associated id number would alleviate their concern greatly.

 

[Freightmaster]

"they do it abroad so we should never do it here"?

Really? Would you like to point out anything I have said that could be construed as such?

How about...

This entire thread is 'they do it abroad so they should do it here'

I don't know and don't care why it is "vital" information on the continent.

No relevance or use to anybody

hope this helps,


MARK

 

[underbank]

Can you explain how announcing train 11105 to London Paddington is easier for a passenger to understand than announcing the 08:30 to London Paddington because I’m really struggling.

Because saying 8.30 doesn't give any indication of route nor stops nor duration. A code such as 11105 would mean more. Just like buses - I get a 555 which is a direct service taking 20 minutes less - from the same starting point and to the same destination, I could take a 55 but it goes a longer route through a couple of villages, hence 20 minutes more. A rail destination board just showing departure time is not much use to occasional passengers when routes/stops aren't the same on all services. The consequence is a greater need for enquiry desk staff for travellers to have to ask for advice/clarifications when a lot of that could have been avoided with service numbers.

 

[PR1Berske]

We hear this question often on RailUK. "In Berlin you know the S9 gets you to the airport, so no need to check platforms or times or whatever, just look for the S9, why can't we do that here?"

For all the regionalisation of franchises and so on, the UK still has a national rail network overall feel. Perhaps only Scotland and Northern Ireland are in any way different though even there, it's not entirely isolated. Using retail codes or similar could work if, as said above, it's explained as being a close equivalent to a plane ticket's flight code. But a passenger just wanting to turn up and go to Blackpool might not really want to grapple with something looking so different to "the 0906 service from platform 1."

Passengers who book in advance might benefit from codes over times. "Here's your train's code, here's your seat reservation number," just as you would expect from a flight.

German style line numbers are perhaps a complete non starter. Standing at Manchester Piccadilly looking for the M6 to one destination, the M6a to the same destination only it doesn't call at Oxford Road, the M6y to the same destination only it's the last train of the day so it skips the penultimate station.....

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I think the big problem with trying to introduce a train ID concept in this country is that we’d make an almighty mess of it. Every TOC would have their own ideas of how it should work, so you’d end up with 15 different systems. Some regional operators would try and number routes, whereas others would number individual trains. Whenever engineering work causes amendments to schedules, the manual planning processes would create errors, duplicates and the like. CIS systems would readily display some operators codes but not others. Network Rail, not being a commercially minded company, would have no appreciation whatsoever of the importance of maintaining the data properly.

Unfortunately I think the more mature, nationalised European railways succeed at this where we would fail miserably. Sometimes we seem to struggle to ensure individual trains run at the same times for the duration of a timetable, instead migrating back and forth by a minute or two here and there.

 

[Kingsbury Jn.]

From a previous thread...

The Chiltern 165s did as well. I no longer commute so I don't know if that is still the case. I don't recall them being made public though.[/QU

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/chiltern-railways-route-numbers.125488/#post-2425816

 

[Esker-pades]

From a previous thread...

Various TOCs have, in the past, displayed route numbers on the train's displays.

 

[30907]

A late response, and purely for information: I've been travelling in Slovakia these last ten days and have obtained several tickets (senior citizen freebies) that are train-specific, and seen plenty of electronic departure boards!

1. The ticket issuing process goes by departune time not train number (just as if booking online) - indeed, I confused one clerk by listing train numbers.
2. The train category is shown on the boards along with the destination and maybe a via point, but not the number (though this is mentioned in announcements).

BTW - in CZ everything now has a route number, even the expresses.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

You ever been at New St where two services to Edinburgh used to (may still) depart at the same time from adjacent platforms, one via the East Coast and one via the West Coast? At one time both were operated by Virgin XC, too...

That is so much of an edge case it's basically fallen off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

BTW - in CZ everything now has a route number, even the expresses.

VTWC have for a while but don't tend to use them that heavily.

Metro-style route numbers with consistent stopping patterns do seem to have become the next step in how to further improve the clockface "Taktfahrplan" concept. And then you can combine them into train numbers - for instance, if Euston-Manchester-Euston via Crewe is VT21 (if you say VT2* is Euston-Manchester, the 1 indicating the route and stopping pattern) then each train can be VT21001, VT21002 etc. You could even have a further consistency of odd numbered trains being to London and even from (the French "pair-impair" concept there ).

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It's arguably irrelevant anyway - in ten years, your smartphone (or wearable device) will tell you that your train is the one now at platform 3, or the one coming in 15 minutes' time, or whatever. There'll be no need for the passenger to make the identification themselves.

 

[LAX54]

some are saying it works with Airlines, a unique number for each flight, but of course each flight can of course have half a dozen 'unique' numbers ! KLM will have a number, Delta will have a number, Quantas will have a different number, and B.A would have another...all for the 0930 Heathrow to New York !
Many know what Airline they are, and go by the departure time, my flight is the 9.30 to New York, with KLM..... and then get on a Delta plane !

 

[mugam4]

It's a way of unambiguously identifying the service, not just the time and destination. It identifies the service regardless of any delay which has corrupted the original departure time's relevance.

For longer-distance trains, this is a unique number. VT384 to New Street, calling MKC, Coventry, International.

For frequent commuter trains, this is a route number that corresponds to a stopping pattern used throughout the day.

German style line numbers are perhaps a complete non starter. Standing at Manchester Piccadilly looking for the M6 to one destination, the M6a to the same destination only it doesn't call at Oxford Road, the M6y to the same destination only it's the last train of the day so it skips the penultimate station.....

I would say, it is the variance in stopping pattern that is confusing to passengers. And that's our current system.

 

[causton]

Not sure why there is so much controversy over how TOCs may number trains etc... when as posted by a few people on this thread, the Retail Service ID will do, already exists, and already has a format and is used by any TOC with reservations (including counted-place Advances) - where reservations or Advances are not available the specific train does not matter as much and it is more about stopping pattern etc with old Southern Region headcodes.

 

[D1009]

The Chiltern 165s did as well. I no longer commute so I don't know if that is still the case. I don't recall them being made public though.

The Turbos recently reallocated to the Bristol area carry route numbers in the destination displays. I don't know what they mean though.