EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We've had a 5% VAT rating on energy efficiency products such as insulation for many years. It;s only recently that this was outlawed by the European Court. I'm not sure what the situation is with fuel bills.

Apologies for not taking the time to look at my own joint-fuel energy bill. The VAT rate charged was 5%.

 

[furnessvale]

We're still waiting to hear your response, furnessvale.

And you will wait a long time. Oldest trick in the book. Get me to waste my time researching links to what are well known issues, or are you suggesting MI5 and MI6 rely on French and German intelligence?

 

[furnessvale]

Apologies for not taking the time to look at my own joint-fuel energy bill. The VAT rate charged was 5%.

I believe OUR government's choice would be zero rate but this is banned by our EU masters.

 

[cactustwirly]

And you will wait a long time. Oldest trick in the book. Get me to waste my time researching links to what are well known issues, or are you suggesting MI5 and MI6 rely on French and German intelligence?

Well we thought you had researched it before you posted...

 

[AlterEgo]

Well we thought you had researched it before you posted...

Nobody in this thread has a bloody clue, and the sooner all posters agree they don’t have a bloody clue the better.

If the government don’t have a bloody clue there isn’t a chance any of us do either.

This thread is a giant weeing contest.

 

[Howardh]

And you will wait a long time. Oldest trick in the book. Get me to waste my time researching links to what are well known issues, or are you suggesting MI5 and MI6 rely on French and German intelligence?

Well now, there we go. A Brexiter unable to back up Brexit...who'd have thought

 

[Howardh]

Nobody in this thread has a bloody clue, and the sooner all posters agree they don’t have a bloody clue the better.

By law of averages, someone somewhere will have exactly that, a clue on something, and they may well be on this messageboard (rather than the cabinet). I, for one, picked up the immense difficulty surrounding the Irish Border before the referendum and before my Toryboy Brexit MP did, and I challenged him in a public meeting a week before the ref, and also brought it up on the BBC News the same day. Of course he didn't really have an answer other than "the CTA will remain in place and the border will be open" - and as we see today neither can happen if there is "no deal" (which is better than a "bad deal" I'm told).

Now I'm no expert on Irish politcal history, but if a duffer like me can spot a future issue well before my MP and the BBC then I think we should be more accommodating to messageborders (on any forum) that DO have a clue.

Just wish Brexiters could back up their claims that Brexit will be a good thing bananas passports fish contwol of us boarders (sic) innit.

 

[furnessvale]

Well now, there we go. A Brexiter unable to back up Brexit...who'd have thought

Thank you for the correct terminology.

The additional vowel often applied to that word is just as offensive as the oft used "remoaner" which riles so many remainers.

As for the main body of your message, unlike many of you appear to do, I do not maintain an index of quotes which can be reeled out as required, life is too short for such things, I have railways and canals to attend to.

Instead I read something and mentally note its content, sometimes using it later. The easy "citation required" or "prove it" response would mean much back tracking to find the quotes which simply, I am not prepared to do.

If people don't like it, tough, there is a world away from this computer screen which I inhabit.

 

[Howardh]

T
As for the main body of your message, unlike many of you appear to do, I do not maintain an index of quotes which can be reeled out as required, life is too short for such things, I have railways and canals to attend to.

Instead I read something and mentally note its content, sometimes using it later. The easy "citation required" or "prove it" response would mean much back tracking to find the quotes which simply, I am not prepared to do.

.

That's such a pity - if people could back up their argument then they might find themselves winning the argument and "remoaners" like myself changing sides. The fact that they can't or won't doesn't help.

 

[EM2]

Thank you for the correct terminology.

The additional vowel often applied to that word is just as offensive as the oft used "remoaner" which riles so many remainers.

Why is it so offensive? Generally, the -eer suffix is used to form nouns with the meaning "the person who produces, handles, or is associated with'' the base word, e.g. mountaineer, engineer, auctioneer, electioneer, musketeer, volunteer etc. 'Brexiteer' simply means 'one associated with Brexit'.

 

[Howardh]

Why is it so offensive? Generally, the -eer suffix is used to form nouns with the meaning "the person who produces, handles, or is associated with'' the base word, e.g. mountaineer, engineer, auctioneer, electioneer, musketeer, volunteer etc. 'Brexiteer' simply means 'one associated with Brexit'.

The fact that some Brexiters think it's a derogotory term speaks volumes

 

[Puffing Devil]

Nobody in this thread has a bloody clue, and the sooner all posters agree they don’t have a bloody clue the better.

If the government don’t have a bloody clue there isn’t a chance any of us do either.

This thread is a giant weeing contest.

The point is this: we've been dragged kicking and screaming out of the EU on the back of unsubstantiated claims and false beliefs. I have no issue if people can back up their assertions; at least then we would have had a reasoned case to leave, or break the status quo. From what I see on here, we have posters who are very big on feeling and assumption but very short on proof.

For such a huge change I expect to see proof. That seems to be in very short supply, which given a campaign based on jingoistic misdirection, I'm not surprised.

 

[Puffing Devil]

And you will wait a long time. Oldest trick in the book. Get me to waste my time researching links to what are well known issues, or are you suggesting MI5 and MI6 rely on French and German intelligence?

You're saying that you don't know? You posted with conviction but don't have even one example to hand? I'm not asking you to research, just post what you know to substantiate your claim.

 

[nlogax]

The additional vowel often applied to that word is just as offensive as the oft used "remoaner" which riles so many remainers.

That is a truly daft statement and entirely divorced from reality. Please, just stop. Pro-Brexit types - including news media and politicians - refer to themselves as '''Brexiteers' almost as much as ''Brexiters". I'd urge you to check the DM, Express, Guido Fawkes and other sites to see for yourself but you're not going to do that, are you?

 

[furnessvale]

Why is it so offensive? Generally, the -eer suffix is used to form nouns with the meaning "the person who produces, handles, or is associated with'' the base word, e.g. mountaineer, engineer, auctioneer, electioneer, musketeer, volunteer etc. 'Brexiteer' simply means 'one associated with Brexit'.

In which case I withdraw my remark, which I was basing on the word "privateer" that has a more gung ho ring to it..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why is it so offensive? Generally, the -eer suffix is used to form nouns with the meaning "the person who produces, handles, or is associated with'' the base word, e.g. mountaineer, engineer, auctioneer, electioneer, musketeer, volunteer etc. 'Brexiteer' simply means 'one associated with Brexit'.

What do they call people who live in places such as Exeter and Uttoxeter?

 

[Domh245]

What do they call people who live in places such as Exeter and Uttoxeter?

Exonians for Exeter, not sure about people from Uttoxeter. I don't know why you've asked this though, we don't call people from London "Londoneers" nor people from Cheshire "Cheshireeers"

 

[fowler9]

And you will wait a long time. Oldest trick in the book. Get me to waste my time researching links to what are well known issues, or are you suggesting MI5 and MI6 rely on French and German intelligence?

Aaah ha ha ha. Oldest trick in the book? Asking you to provide evidence? It's hardly a trick. You have no evidence at all and we all have to go down the sh*tter in the good faith that Brexiteers may or may not be right about stuff they have no information about. Us remoaners are well aware that the leavers waisted no time at all doing any research in to well known issues. That is why two years down the line we have no deal and the EU are asking us not to to let the door hit our ar*e on the way out. Absolutely pathetic (Not you individually furnessvale by the way, just my general opinion).

 

[Howardh]

Bury's a "Burinian", Preston a "Prestonian", and if you're from Bolton you're a "poor sod what have you ever done to live thereian".

 

[AM9]

'Brexit monger' has been suggested in various places. According to Google a 'monger' means:
1) "a dealer or trader in a specified commodity."

2) "denoting a person who promotes a specified activity, situation, or feeling, especially one that is undesirable or discreditable."

Now that could be regarded as a pejorative term by some.

 

[Puffing Devil]

1, because we like to have different VAT rates for different products such as energy efficiency products, which the EU has outlawed. Also, if we decide to exempt ladies sanitary products from VAT, that should be our choice. There is no good reason to have unified VAT rates.

2, There is no good reason for a foreign power to override how national Governments should run their railways. The EU is pushing member states further down the road towards separate ownership of track and train. This should be left up to member states.

3, The single currency was always a dreadful idea and has precipitated economic crises in several countries, owing to not being able to set their own interest rates etc. It doesn't affect us, but I still believe it is a bad thing for the continent.

Let's look at this a little more.....

1. My understanding is that Energy Products are either zero or reduced rated. What specific issues does it cause, other than us "liking" to have different rates? I completely understand the issue of Sanitary Products. Our MEPs should be working to have these Zero Rated by agreement - I don't believe it's worth leaving for. Our own government should do more to ensure that period poverty is removed in this country.

2. Where is the EU pressing for separate ownership of tracks and trains? I don't know of any published policy. Can you point me to one?

3. You believe that the single currency was a bad idea. Many people do. However, the UK is not in the single currency, so why should that be a factor to consider when leaving?

And @Geezertronic we're still waiting for your thoughts to the question I posed.

 

[HSTEd]

Our MEPs should be working to have these Zero Rated by agreement - I don't believe it's worth leaving for. Our own government should do more to ensure that period poverty is removed in this country.

And what do you propose to trade away to get it?
The EU never gives anything back to the member states for free.

2. Where is the EU pressing for separate ownership of tracks and trains? I don't know of any published policy. Can you point me to one?

The EU mandates the creation of a Network Rail type body as part of its unbundling of railway services.
This is why Reseau Ferre de France exists.

 

[yorksrob]

Let's look at this a little more.....

1. My understanding is that Energy Products are either zero or reduced rated. What specific issues does it cause, other than us "liking" to have different rates? I completely understand the issue of Sanitary Products. Our MEPs should be working to have these Zero Rated by agreement - I don't believe it's worth leaving for. Our own government should do more to ensure that period poverty is removed in this country.

2. Where is the EU pressing for separate ownership of tracks and trains? I don't know of any published policy. Can you point me to one?

3. You believe that the single currency was a bad idea. Many people do. However, the UK is not in the single currency, so why should that be a factor to consider when leaving?

And @Geezertronic we're still waiting for your thoughts to the question I posed.

In the end, I didn't think the above issues were worth leaving for, which is why I didn't vote for it.

That said the above issues are all examples where the EU has taken on more power than it should have done.

In terms of VAT, I don't believe the EU should have any say over member states VAT policy. The court ruled against our lower rate of VAT for insulation.

I believe it should be entirely up to member states how they run their railway system. If they prefer a monolithic state organisation such as SNCF or BR to run them that should be their choice.

In terms of the currency, I believe that all current non-Euro members should be given the same permanent opt-out that we and Denmark have.

If the boot were on the other foot and we were an established country outside of the EU, I certainly wouldn't be voting to join it in its present form.

 

[Howardh]

Regarding VAT the EU's stance is understandable, if VAT on a gaget was 10% in Holland and 25% in Germany, buyers would simply cross the border - as indeed the Dutch dis (still do??) travel dozens of miles to Luxembourg for cheap(er) petrol.

That's one of the reasons the Spanish are rather awkward over the Gibraltar Border as Gibraltar is tax-free/tax-cheaper (not sure which..help!!) and citizens attempt to "smuggle" cheap cigarettes over.

 

[Puffing Devil]

And what do you propose to trade away to get it?
The EU never gives anything back to the member states for free.

This is not a negotiation - it's why we have a European Parliament; our MEPs should be aligning with others with the same view to change the EU regulations. That's how government works.

The EU mandates the creation of a Network Rail type body as part of its unbundling of railway services.
This is why Reseau Ferre de France exists.

Reseau Ferre de France no longer exists. It was absorbed back into SNCF in 2015, though there are notionally separate companies running track and trains. Nothing to stop the UK having the same model in the EU. However, our current government seems wedded to separation and franchises, many of which don't seem to be working.

 

[Puffing Devil]

In the end, I didn't think the above issues were worth leaving for, which is why I didn't vote for it.

That said the above issues are all examples where the EU has taken on more power than it should have done.

In terms of VAT, I don't believe the EU should have any say over member states VAT policy. The court ruled against our lower rate of VAT for insulation.

@Howardh dealt with this. Whilst I understand your belief, I still don't see any evidence of detrimental impact.

I believe it should be entirely up to member states how they run their railway system. If they prefer a monolithic state organisation such as SNCF or BR to run them that should be their choice.

See my post above - the current working of SNCF is just that.

In terms of the currency, I believe that all current non-Euro members should be given the same permanent opt-out that we and Denmark have.

I don't know if they have, or not. It could be it was a condition of joining for the new members, which they agreed to. And something we may need to sign up for if we decide to come back into the fold. Even so, not a consideration for us when deciding to leave. We have the opt out. For now.

If the boot were on the other foot and we were an established country outside of the EU, I certainly wouldn't be voting to join it in its present form.

Quite possibly, though that is a very different proposition to unwinding the working arrangements that we invested in over the past 40 years. It's not a simple as the Brexit Supports sold it.

 

[HSTEd]

This is not a negotiation - it's why we have a European Parliament; our MEPs should be aligning with others with the same view to change the EU regulations. That's how government works.

Except unilaterally changing regulations is not within the gift of the Parliament.

Reseau Ferre de France no longer exists. It was absorbed back into SNCF in 2015, though there are notionally separate companies running track and trains. Nothing to stop the UK having the same model in the EU. However, our current government seems wedded to separation and franchises, many of which don't seem to be working.

Except from December 2019, all state backed rail operations must be put out to competitive tender by order of the latest EU Rail Directive. Which essentially means Franchising is forced by the EU now.
And there is still a chinese wall between SNCF Mobilités and SNCF Réseau

 

[yorksrob]

@Howardh dealt with this. Whilst I understand your belief, I still don't see any evidence of detrimental impact.



See my post above - the current working of SNCF is just that.



I don't know if they have, or not. It could be it was a condition of joining for the new members, which they agreed to. And something we may need to sign up for if we decide to come back into the fold. Even so, not a consideration for us when deciding to leave. We have the opt out. For now.



Quite possibly, though that is a very different proposition to unwinding the working arrangements that we invested in over the past 40 years. It's not a simple as the Brexit Supports sold it.

@Howardh dealt with this. Whilst I understand your belief, I still don't see any evidence of detrimental impact.



See my post above - the current working of SNCF is just that.



I don't know if they have, or not. It could be it was a condition of joining for the new members, which they agreed to. And something we may need to sign up for if we decide to come back into the fold. Even so, not a consideration for us when deciding to leave. We have the opt out. For now.



Quite possibly, though that is a very different proposition to unwinding the working arrangements that we invested in over the past 40 years. It's not a simple as the Brexit Supports sold it.[/Q

@Howardh dealt with this. Whilst I understand your belief, I still don't see any evidence of detrimental impact.



See my post above - the current working of SNCF is just that.



I don't know if they have, or not. It could be it was a condition of joining for the new members, which they agreed to. And something we may need to sign up for if we decide to come back into the fold. Even so, not a consideration for us when deciding to leave. We have the opt out. For now.



Quite possibly, though that is a very different proposition to unwinding the working arrangements that we invested in over the past 40 years. It's not a simple as the Brexit Supports sold it.

On the subject of currencies, only the UK and Denmark have an opt out, which means that other non-Euro countries are expected, by treaty to adopt the single currency at some unspecified time in the future.

I think its a fair point that a successful Brexit will be more difficult than a lot on the leave campaign made out. But I also think that a lot on the leave side simply don't agree with the way the EU operates in relation to its member states at a philosophical level.

Thanks to HSTEd for explaining the current state of play with regard to railway Governance better than I would be able to.

 

[VauxhallandI]

It's all a bit too much for me, whilst we've still got free access to EU countries I'm going to run off to Turkey and join the EU army

 

[Puffing Devil]

Except unilaterally changing regulations is not within the gift of the Parliament.

Except from December 2019, all state backed rail operations must be put out to competitive tender by order of the latest EU Rail Directive. Which essentially means Franchising is forced by the EU now.
And there is still a chinese wall between SNCF Mobilités and SNCF Réseau

I didn't suggest a unilateral change - I suggested we should be working through our MEPs in the EU Parliament.

Your initial comment was about the current status of the railways, not the 2020 plans.

Again it's not this monster EU that is driving the change, it is agreed through the parliament. We have representatives in parliament and a vote, sometimes we don't get what we want - much like the government in this country. In the case of the railways and enforced competition, I can't see our current government objecting to that, so rather than blame the monster that is the EU, we should look closer to home and see what, if any, objections were lodged.