EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Puffing Devil]

Yes, amazing that remainers cannot accept the fact that, especially on security matters, that is actually the case.

Specific example, please.

 

[Spamcan81]

And people couldn't resist being antagonistic when trying to defend the animosity with more "whataboutery":



"Crowing leavers", "brought it on themselves", "baying". Nice.

"More understanding voices on the leaver side appealing for a more adult respect" - that doesn't sound arrogant at all!



I'm not jingoistic, thanks.

I notice both of you have said the same thing, that there's no respect for voters who voted a different way, which is nonsense. In what way is that true? I completely respect that different people have different opinions and looking at any situation and question may come to different conclusions about it. I'm not about to change my opinion to match yours, if that's what "respect" actually means when it comes to Brexit.

I voted remain and have been branded a coward and unpatriotic by some leavers. Doesn't sound very respectful to me.

 

[whhistle]

What I find amazing about the whole thing is that people struggle to accept the result - on both sides.

Remain people call for another referendum citing the lies being told throughout.
Vote Out people call remain people losers.

The worst thing is, like most things in our country, we're taking an age to do anything. The longer we're in this status, the longer it'll take before the Pound regains value (or not). That's why it's important not to delay leaving.

If the idea of having another referendum was entertained, there would be yet more lies spread because that's how we as a country have allowed our politics to be. People with money won't change it and people without money can't change it.

There's a lot of lies that get spread, but looking a lot of it shows it's all just scaremongering.
Like the "resession". That's just companies thinking every year they MUST make more money than the last. Are they thick? They won't always make money. Just like the mobile phone market - now most people have one, of course there is a slow down and a slow down in profits. Doesn't take a £100,000 report to understand that.
The 2019 resession hasn't had much, if any impact on me. Yeah, petrol prices are higher but I don't see thousands of people losing their homes like in the 60s and 70s or whenever it was. A slight downturn and companies seem to think it's the end of the world.

The sooner we're out, the better. Then we can plan better instead of this hiatus of not knowing what will happen.

 

[cactustwirly]

What I find amazing about the whole thing is that people struggle to accept the result - on both sides.

Remain people call for another referendum citing the lies being told throughout.
Vote Out people call remain people losers.

The worst thing is, like most things in our country, we're taking an age to do anything. The longer we're in this status, the longer it'll take before the Pound regains value (or not). That's why it's important not to delay leaving.

If the idea of having another referendum was entertained, there would be yet more lies spread because that's how we as a country have allowed our politics to be. People with money won't change it and people without money can't change it.

There's a lot of lies that get spread, but looking a lot of it shows it's all just scaremongering.
Like the "resession". That's just companies thinking every year they MUST make more money than the last. Are they thick? They won't always make money. Just like the mobile phone market - now most people have one, of course there is a slow down and a slow down in profits. Doesn't take a £100,000 report to understand that.
The 2019 resession hasn't had much, if any impact on me. Yeah, petrol prices are higher but I don't see thousands of people losing their homes like in the 60s and 70s or whenever it was. A slight downturn and companies seem to think it's the end of the world.

The sooner we're out, the better. Then we can plan better instead of this hiatus of not knowing what will happen.

No the worst result will be to leave fast, but have a bad deal or a 'cliff edge'.
We need to leave pragmatically, getting the best deal from the EU, and slowly transitioning out to avoid that 'cliff edge'.

 

[Howardh]

Yes, amazing that remainers cannot accept the fact that, especially on security matters, that is actually the case.

Care to embellish?

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, amazing that remainers cannot accept the fact that, especially on security matters, that is actually the case.

No that's just delusion, I don't believe it.
That line of thought has got us exactly nothing in the Brexit negotiations

 

[EM2]

Yes, amazing that remainers cannot accept the fact that, especially on security matters, that is actually the case.

And your evidence is?

 

[mmh]

May at the same again, it would appear. Effectively "We want to walk out of your club, but we still want to be members of a number of your committees ..." Like deciding you want to get out of the local golf club but thinking you could still just stay on the Greens Committee and the Car-parking Committee. English arrogance and sense of entitlement, or just a consequence of the internal war in the Tory party and no real questioning of the Tory Europe "policy" from Labout?

For once May is actually speaking sense. There's no sane reason for the EU to not allow Britain to continue to be part of security and intelligence systems and agreements once Britain's left the EU. An EU claiming this cannot be done is putting ideology and a perverse need to punish Britain above the safety of EU member state citizens, and shows breathtaking hypocrisy when there are already non-EU members taking part in them.

The real reason these things are so difficult is the EU's belligerence at a member for daring to leave and the need to show other members how torturous extricating themselves from it will be.

 

[Howardh]

The real reason these things are so difficult is the EU's belligerence at a member for daring to leave and the need to show other members how torturous extricating themselves from it will be.

And you blame them for it? Of course they will look after the interests of the remaining members, that's what being in the club is all about. We're the only idiotic ones deciding to leave and make our own way. We could always see sense and at least keep our ties with the EEA option.

 

[mmh]

And you blame them for it?

You're defending obstruction and hostility? Of course I'll blame someone for that, it's a political and economic union, not a playground clique of schoolkids.

Of course they will look after the interests of the remaining members, that's what being in the club is all about.

As I said, they're not acting in the interests of the members. What benefit, for example, will denying Britain access to the Schengen Information System database give to the other, both EU and non-EU members, who use it? None.

 

[Geezertronic]

And you blame them for it? Of course they will look after the interests of the remaining members, that's what being in the club is all about. We're the only idiotic ones deciding to leave and make our own way. We could always see sense and at least keep our ties with the EEA option.

Of course it could be said that had the EU been less idiotic and more flexible during the time before the referendum was called and indeed leading up to the referendum, then the referendum may not have been called in the first place or the vote could have gone in favour of Remain. Now they want to play hard ball when in reality they could have avoided this whole scenario had they been more flexible to us as a pre-referendum member in the first place

 

[EM2]

...in reality they could have avoided this whole scenario had they been more flexible to us as a pre-referendum member in the first place

Why should they be? What is so special about this group of islands that it should be treated any differently to any other of the twenty-seven members? On top of all the concessions that the UK has already been given, why should the EU kowtow to us?

 

[Howardh]

You're defending obstruction and hostility? Of course I'll blame someone for that, it's a political and economic union, not a playground clique of schoolkids.
As I said, they're not acting in the interests of the members. What benefit, for example, will denying Britain access to the Schengen Information System database give to the other, both EU and non-EU members, who use it? None.

BiB; you've just described the Tory Cabinet there, bud.
Of course I'm defending the EU being "obstructive and hostile" to a member voting to leave. I wouldn't expect them to put the flags up for us. If, say Spain was leaving, I wouldn't want them to leave but keep all the benefits and privileges and pay next-to-nothing to keep them. And if the UK wants access to the SIS, should we have it for free, as I'm sure there will be a cost to maintaining it?

 

[Howardh]

Why should they be? What is so special about this group of islands that it should be treated any differently to any other of the twenty-seven members? On top of all the concessions that the UK has already been given, why should the EU kowtow to us?

I've no idea for sure and wouldn't even know where to start to look, but I would be surprised that out of the whole 28 the UK hasn't been given more opt-outs and vetos then any of the others.

 

[EM2]

And if the UK wants access to the SIS, should we have it for free, as I'm sure there will be a cost to maintaining it?

Cyprus is a member of the EU and yet has no access to SIS.

 

[Senex]

Why should they be? What is so special about this group of islands that it should be treated any differently to any other of the twenty-seven members? On top of all the concessions that the UK has already been given, why should the EU kowtow to us?

Absolutely!

 

[Carlisle]

People with money won't change it and people without money can't change it.

Probably a lot of truth in that statement, but I don’t see exiting the EU making a jot of difference to that problem

 

[yorksrob]

We might not need visas but it aint arf a faf arriving in Schiphol 20+ mins late, legging the length of Terminal D to join a long queue at passport control, begging (successfully) to queue jump thinking you are going to miss your connection; going up a floor and legging it back along Terminal D arriving at your gate just at the official time of gate closing, only to find you had 15 minutes to spare because you are reboarding exactly the same plane you got off 40 minutes earlier! But yes, that is irrelevant to Brexit per se - more our insistance of only being "associate" members back in the 70s.

Running for a plane isn't a decisive argument for staying in a political union one doesn't philosophically believe in though.

Perhaps being "associate members" wouldn't be such a bad thing anyway. Perhaps its closer to the common market that the electorate actually voted to remain in, all those years ago.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Of course it could be said that had the EU been less idiotic and more flexible during the time before the referendum was called and indeed leading up to the referendum,

What, exactly, do you mean by idiotic and more flexible? What specifically did you expect the whole EU to do?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes, amazing that remainers cannot accept the fact that, especially on security matters, that is actually the case.

Specific example, please.

Care to embellish?

And your evidence is?

We're still waiting to hear your response, furnessvale.

 

[yorksrob]

What, exactly, do you mean by idiotic and more flexible? What specifically did you expect the whole EU to do?

Not having an EU wide VAT policy for starters. This should be decided by nation states.

Not having a position on how railways should be managed. It should be up to the nation state.

There should be no single currency.

This was always my view, but now we're out, it's up to them to sort out.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Not having an EU wide VAT policy for starters. This should be decided by nation states.

Not having a position on how railways should be managed. It should be up to the nation state.

There should be no single currency.

This was always my view, but now we're out, it's up to them to sort out.

I'd like to dig a little deeper......

Why is it an issue if we have an EU VAT Policy? What problems does it cause us in the UK?

What are the EU rules on the management of railways? Why do these cause an issue?

How does the Single Currency affect us in the UK and why is it idiotic?

 

[whhistle]

No the worst result will be to leave fast...

And that's the problem right there throughout this whole thing.
I said we shouldn't leave slow, but that doesn't mean we should leave "fast" either!
I see this all the time, especially with people who voted remain. It's always the extreme. Both sides need to accept and shut up or move to an EU country if they're that bothered. But not many British people will move, because it's actually not that bad but they're too proud to admit that fact.

And you blame them for it? Of course they will look after the interests of the remaining members, that's what being in the club is all about. We're the only idiotic ones deciding to leave and make our own way. We could always see sense and at least keep our ties with the EEA option.

You missed the first point.
The EU are only suggesting it to punish the UK. Why else would they say "it's not possible", when other non-EU countries are doing exactly that.

I struggle to see why mere people like us are so concerned.
People bleet "security" and "free trade" <-- two things the UK want but it's the EU who have thrown their dummies out and are making it difficult. It's not difficult and I fail to see why having a little more say in the running of our own country is a bad thing, rather than being told by the EU.

I mean, look at the amount of court cases that go to an EU court. Ours clearly isn't good enough. Or is it that people will keep going until they get the result they want? We all know it's the latter.

Leaving means we aren't told what to do by the EU (such as rights/regulations). That doesn't mean employee rights (for example) will erode... we'll still have what we have now. And I suspect every time the EU brings out yet another regulation, the UK will look at it and deicde if it'll be good for us or not. If so, we'll probably adopt it. If not, we won't.
Really struggle to see why that is a bad thing.
The Swiss seem to be getting on very well and they're not in the EU are they?

What are the EU rules on the management of railways? Why do these cause an issue?

I'd rather a British company run the train companies.
The reason other countries can is because they are perhaps more inventive with their bids. While our track record of British companies running railways isn't great, perhaps there's no motivation as some other country will end up running it.
We have to open the competition to all EU countries because the EU tell us that's how it has to be. I'm not saying we should go to the other extreme, but are you saying you'd rather an EU country running the railways than a British one? And don't say "if the trains run on time, yes" because train running on a daily basis is down to the people not the owning company.

How does the Single Currency affect us in the UK and why is it idiotic?

I'm sure the general consensus is that we "love" the pound, hence we didn't take on the Euro like Ireland did.
I mean, if it was such a good idea, why didn't we adopt it?

 

[fowler9]

Yes, amazing that remainers cannot accept the fact that, especially on security matters, that is actually the case.

Do you have anything to back that up?

 

[cactustwirly]

And that's the problem right there throughout this whole thing.
I said we shouldn't leave slow, but that doesn't mean we should leave "fast" either!
I see this all the time, especially with people who voted remain. It's always the extreme. Both sides need to accept and shut up or move to an EU country if they're that bothered. But not many British people will move, because it's actually not that bad but they're too proud to admit that fact.



You missed the first point.
The EU are only suggesting it to punish the UK. Why else would they say "it's not possible", when other non-EU countries are doing exactly that.

I struggle to see why mere people like us are so concerned.
People bleet "security" and "free trade" <-- two things the UK want but it's the EU who have thrown their dummies out and are making it difficult. It's not difficult and I fail to see why having a little more say in the running of our own country is a bad thing, rather than being told by the EU.

I mean, look at the amount of court cases that go to an EU court. Ours clearly isn't good enough. Or is it that people will keep going until they get the result they want? We all know it's the latter.

Leaving means we aren't told what to do by the EU (such as rights/regulations). That doesn't mean employee rights (for example) will erode... we'll still have what we have now. And I suspect every time the EU brings out yet another regulation, the UK will look at it and deicde if it'll be good for us or not. If so, we'll probably adopt it. If not, we won't.
Really struggle to see why that is a bad thing.
The Swiss seem to be getting on very well and they're not in the EU are they?



I'd rather a British company run the train companies.
The reason other countries can is because they are perhaps more inventive with their bids. While our track record of British companies running railways isn't great, perhaps there's no motivation as some other country will end up running it.
We have to open the competition to all EU countries because the EU tell us that's how it has to be. I'm not saying we should go to the other extreme, but are you saying you'd rather an EU country running the railways than a British one? And don't say "if the trains run on time, yes" because train running on a daily basis is down to the people not the owning company.



I'm sure the general consensus is that we "love" the pound, hence we didn't take on the Euro like Ireland did.
I mean, if it was such a good idea, why didn't we adopt it?

You do realise that we chose to privatise the railways, the EU didn't force us!
The Austrians, Czech, French, Hungarians etc all have state owned railways

 

[yorksrob]

I'd like to dig a little deeper......

Why is it an issue if we have an EU VAT Policy? What problems does it cause us in the UK?

What are the EU rules on the management of railways? Why do these cause an issue?

How does the Single Currency affect us in the UK and why is it idiotic?

1, because we like to have different VAT rates for different products such as energy efficiency products, which the EU has outlawed. Also, if we decide to exempt ladies sanitary products from VAT, that should be our choice. There is no good reason to have unified VAT rates.

2, There is no good reason for a foreign power to override how national Governments should run their railways. The EU is pushing member states further down the road towards separate ownership of track and train. This should be left up to member states.

3, The single currency was always a dreadful idea and has precipitated economic crises in several countries, owing to not being able to set their own interest rates etc. It doesn't affect us, but I still believe it is a bad thing for the continent.

 

[EM2]

But not many British people will move, because it's actually not that bad but they're too proud to admit that fact.

Or maybe because there's a lot of reasons why they can't. Like kids still in school, or relatives that need care, just for example.

You missed the first point.
The EU are only suggesting it to punish the UK. Why else would they say "it's not possible", when other non-EU countries are doing exactly that.

It's possible, if you adopt the same arrangements that other third parties have. The UK don't want to, they want special arrangements.

I struggle to see why mere people like us are so concerned.
People bleet "security" and "free trade" <-- two things the UK want but it's the EU who have thrown their dummies out and are making it difficult. It's not difficult and I fail to see why having a little more say in the running of our own country is a bad thing, rather than being told by the EU.

It is difficult when the UK want it to be done their way, and not the way the EU have done it with every other third-party country, which is what the UK will become.

I mean, look at the amount of court cases that go to an EU court. Ours clearly isn't good enough. Or is it that people will keep going until they get the result they want? We all know it's the latter.

Leaving means we aren't told what to do by the EU (such as rights/regulations). That doesn't mean employee rights (for example) will erode... we'll still have what we have now.

Until the Government of the day decide that they don't want it any more, and repeal those laws.

And I suspect every time the EU brings out yet another regulation, the UK will look at it and deicde if it'll be good for us or not. If so, we'll probably adopt it. If not, we won't.
Really struggle to see why that is a bad thing.
The Swiss seem to be getting on very well and they're not in the EU are they?

Why would the UK Government adopt regulations of an organisation that it is not a member of?
The Swiss are members of EFTA (which apparently we don't want). They negotiated ten bilateral treaties the sum of which makes a large share of EU law applicable to Switzerland. This includes free movement of people, by the way.
Switzerland is also in the Schengen Area.
The Euro is de facto accepted in many places, including on Swiss Federal Railways.

...are you saying you'd rather an EU country running the railways than a British one? And don't say "if the trains run on time, yes" because train running on a daily basis is down to the people not the owning company.

I really do not care. I want the service to be clean, punctual, good value and reliable. If a non-UK company is in the best position to provide that, then so be it.

I'm sure the general consensus is that we "love" the pound, hence we didn't take on the Euro like Ireland did.
I mean, if it was such a good idea, why didn't we adopt it?

Well, when you get told (by many people) 'you can't be proud to be British if you want the Euro' then it's hardly surprising that a 'we love the pound' ethos is prevalent in the country. I'm sure that the only reason that we didn't adopt the Euro is because there would have been uproar from the middle classes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's an interesting aside relating to Obama. We're often told the EU referendum result was too close to be conclusive (despite a 1.3 million majority from the biggest turnout since 1992)

The result was 51.89% to 48.11%

Are those statistics above quite similar to those of the result of the referendum held in Britain about remaining/exiting the EU?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

1, because we like to have different VAT rates for different products such as energy efficiency products, which the EU has outlawed. Also, if we decide to exempt ladies sanitary products from VAT, that should be our choice. There is no good reason to have unified VAT rates.

Is it not the case that Britain has a low rate of VAT on energy usage bills. How do we compare to those rates in the EU on energy consumption?

 

[yorksrob]

Is it not the case that Britain has a low rate of VAT on energy usage bills. How do we compare to those rates in the EU on energy consumption?

We've had a 5% VAT rating on energy efficiency products such as insulation for many years. It;s only recently that this was outlawed by the European Court.

I'm not sure what the situation is with fuel bills.