Fares including a RailAir coach and disruption

[joncombe]

Last night I was trying to use the Heathrow to Woking rail air coach. However there was major disruption (I was told the M25 was closed), though I only found this out after buying my ticket (the coach was listed as on time when I bought my ticket), but the coach was cancelled.

So I had to join the queue to get a refund. However the person being served in front of me had a rail ticket from "Heathrow (Bus)" to Honiton, which was routed via this RailAir coach to Woking. It was an AP ticket valid only on a specific train, which he had now missed becuase the coach did not run.

He was told that as the ticket was only valid on that specific train and the delays were due to the closure of the M25 which was outside of their control, no refund was possible and that he couldn't use it on a later train (not sure if there even was one). He did protest that this didn't seem fair (I agree) but the member of staff insisted it was correct. He was told the "best" option was to buy a new ticket from National Expres on their own latercoach to Exeter (and presumably from there to Honiton by taxi).

I was tempted to intervene and say that since he was travelling on a through rail ticket and the disruption was not his fault (he had arrived in time for the booked coach), he should be taken to Honiton (or put up in a hotel until the next day) under the National Conditions of Carriage. However I wasn't sure if this would apply if part of the journey was by coach so I didn't say anything, not wanting to give out incorrect information or start an argument with the same member of staff I was about to ask for a refund from!

Were the staff right, of was I right? The situation here is a little confused, because this isn't a "Plus Bus" ticket as such it's a ticket from "Heathrow Bus" which I think is a special destination which is only valid on the Rail Air coaches so not sure if that is classified as a rail service and subject to the National conditions of cariage or not?

Having said that for some reason the "RailAir" name has long since been dropped on the Woking to Heathrow route (it's just branded National Express now), though the Heathrow to Reading one is still branded RailAir.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not a rail service and not acting in lieu of one so you’re not covered. Not an international journey so you can’t claim CIV protection either. Caveat emptor.

 

[joncombe]

Not a rail service and not acting in lieu of one so you’re not covered. Not an international journey so you can’t claim CIV protection either. Caveat emptor.

Really? That does seem rather harsh, if that is the option National Rail enquiries will suggest (which it does). The times of the coaches are all in the National Rail database and show on the departures boards at Woking. I appreciate there is always a degree of risk in buying an AP ticket to connect with a flight, but I did feel sorry for him here that he had arrived on time, but through now fault of his own he had to buy an entirely new ticket.

I suspect there would be a good case for a credit card charge back here (if he had paid with one) on the basis the service paid for wasn't provided.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really? That does seem rather harsh, if that is the option National Rail enquiries will suggest (which it does). The times of the coaches are all in the National Rail database and show on the departures boards at Woking. I appreciate there is always a degree of risk in buying an AP ticket to connect with a flight, but I did feel sorry for him here that he had arrived on time, but through now fault of his own he had to buy an entirely new ticket.

It seems harsh but the NRCoT does not cover coach journeys - the Conditions cannot provide protection over a scheduled bus journey even when that’s undertaken on a rail-issued ticket. It would be different if it was a rail replacement bus acting in lieu of a train though.

 

[joncombe]

It seems harsh but the NRCoT does not cover coach journeys - the Conditions cannot provide protection over a scheduled bus journey even when that’s undertaken on a rail-issued ticket. It would be different if it was a rail replacement bus acting in lieu of a train though.

Sorry just updated my previous post, but I do wonder if there would be a case against the credit card company on the basis of service not provided, or that it is an unfair contract. That if a coach is cancelled your entire ticket is essentially invalid (the service only runs hourly and a ticket routed Heathrow(bus) is ONLY valid on that route)

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry just updated my previous post, but I do wonder if there would be a case against the credit card company on the basis of service not provided, or that it is an unfair contract. That if a coach is cancelled your entire ticket is essentially invalid (the service only runs hourly and a ticket routed Heathrow(bus) is ONLY valid on that route)

There could certainly be a case for chargeback, but remember it’s distinct to S75 protection. Chargeback isn’t the law so the company could well refuse it.

 

[horizonflame]

There could certainly be a case for chargeback, but remember it’s distinct to S75 protection. Chargeback isn’t the law so the company could well refuse it.

The Company can't refuse the chargeback as the claim is made via the customer's bank or credit card company. The chargeback in this case would be a breach of contract and should succeed quite easily if the customer can provide sufficient evidence the coach service was not provided.

 

[AlterEgo]

The Company can't refuse the chargeback as the claim is made via the customer's bank or credit card company. The chargeback in this case would be a breach of contract and should succeed quite easily if the customer can provide sufficient evidence the coach service was not provided.

The company certainly can dispute the chargeback. The customer would have a strong case though.

 

[Haywain]

I would have thought that in such circumstances a full refund should be available due to cancellation of the service. This would be in accordance with the disruption 'rules' in the NRCoT, regardless of the service being a coach rather than a train. I would be surprised if the ticket seller did not refund on this basis.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would have thought that in such circumstances a full refund should be available due to cancellation of the service. This would be in accordance with the disruption 'rules' in the NRCoT, regardless of the service being a coach rather than a train. I would be surprised if the ticket seller did not refund on this basis.

If the customer abandoned their journey then this would certainly be the case, but not so if they continued and were delayed.

 

[Haywain]

If the customer abandoned their journey then this would certainly be the case, but not so if they continued and were delayed.

Indeed, and buying a different ticket, as they were advised to, qualifies as abandonment.

 

[yorkie]

He was told that ... he couldn't use it on a later train

I can't see that being lawful under contract and consumer law.

The view of @AlterEgo is that the rail industry's rules invalidate this ticket due to no fault of the passenger, but the rail industry is NOT able to override consumer and contract law.

I can ask some solicitors and barristers in the next few days and see what they think.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't see that being lawful under contract and consumer law.

The view of @AlterEgo is that the rail industry's rules invalidate this ticket due to no fault of the passenger, but the rail industry is NOT able to override consumer and contract law.

I can ask some solicitors and barristers in the next few days and see what they think.

That’s not quite my view. My view is that the NRCoT doesn’t apply to a bus, where that bus is not replacing a train.

Likewise, if you purchase a ticket on a bus that includes rail travel, you would quite properly and correctly argue that if the passenger was delayed they would be due compensation under the NRCoT.

 

[yorkie]

Whether or not the NRCoT applies to a bus or not doesn't determine whether or not a train company can get out of their obligation to accept such an Advance ticket on later services, if the connection is missed due to a delay on the bus.

If SWR are pricing fares that they are invalidating en-route despite the customer having fulfilled all their obligations, then SWR would appear to be breaking the law.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whether or not the NRCoT applies to a bus or not doesn't determine whether or not a train company can get out of their obligation to accept such an Advance ticket on later services, if the connection is missed due to a delay on the bus.

If SWR are pricing fares that they are invalidating en-route despite the customer having fulfilled all their obligations, then SWR would appear to be breaking the law.

The customer won’t have fulfilled all their obligations, because they won’t have arrived in time to catch their train. Their journey before that is not covered by the NRCoT, because the NRCoT lists the companies it applies to and NX buses isn’t one of them.

 

[yorkie]

I'll do some digging by asking some solicitors and barristers on Monday, but based on conversations I've had with solicitors on similar subjects, I cannot imagine that would be lawful!

 

[OwlMan]

According to the RDG advance Q&A a rail plus partner ticket (which include through buses, TFL, etc) is treated the same as a rail only ticket. The customer should have been allowed on the next train. see text highlighted in red in quote below.

ikb Advance Q&A

Q: Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?
A: In certain cases, yes but the following principles must apply:

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay.

This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are:

Included: are passengers travelling on valid:

• Through domestic or international tickets; e.g. Brighton - Scarborough route “+ XC & Connections”;
• Through rail & partner tickets for which there is a through bus, tube, ferry or metro fare, e.g. Zone U12 - Leeds, Wisbech Coach - York; Ryde Pier - Hull, etc;
• Combination of domestic rail-only tickets (e.g. rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds plus Advance ticket Leeds-Peterborough; or adjoining Advance tickets)
• Combination of domestic rail & partner tickets (e.g. Brighton - Zone U12 plus Advance ticket London Euston - Manchester, or Advance ticket Bristol Parkway - London Paddington plus Zone U1 single ticket plus Advance ticket London Kings Cross to Hull)
• Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK and then either advance purchase tickets from London Terminals or “London Intnl CIV” or “London Eurostar CIV”.

Excluded: for the avoidance of doubt, are:

• Non train-company travel on separate tickets e.g. journeys that commence on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (This includes “PlusBus” which is a local day- Rover bus ticket, not compatible with a medium/ long distance ‘Advance’ single journey, so are kept as separate tickets); or

• Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (but allowable where electronically checked, delay verified and Advance ticket endorsed in Travel Centres).

 

[Haywain]

If SWR are pricing fares that they are invalidating en-route

The customer should have been allowed on the next train.

It isn't clear in the OP who was giving such poor advice but it would appear to have been given at Heathrow Airport. Unless SWR have an office of some sort at the airport (I think this unlikely), it would have been some other company providing the advice. And as the OP is not the victim of this there is little we can realistically do to help.

 

[joncombe]

I'll do some digging by asking some solicitors and barristers on Monday, but based on conversations I've had with solicitors on similar subjects, I cannot imagine that would be lawful!

I wouldn't want you to go to any trouble over this as I'm afraid I didn't get the passengers details (though in hindsight it would have been an idea to ask him), so I wouldn't be able to pass on any information you might be able to find out.

 

[joncombe]

It isn't clear in the OP who was giving such poor advice but it would appear to have been given at Heathrow Airport. Unless SWR have an office of some sort at the airport (I think this unlikely), it would have been some other company providing the advice. And as the OP is not the victim of this there is little we can realistically do to help.

Correct, it was the staff at the National Express counter at the Heathrow Central bus station. I don't think he actually spoke to any rail staff unfortunately (unless he had done so by phone before hand). He was advised by the NX staff that his ticket would only be valid on that train (which he'd now miss). I'm afraid I think I they saw it is a sales opportunity (to sell him one of their tickets to Exeter).

 

[joncombe]

Whether or not the NRCoT applies to a bus or not doesn't determine whether or not a train company can get out of their obligation to accept such an Advance ticket on later services, if the connection is missed due to a delay on the bus.

If SWR are pricing fares that they are invalidating en-route despite the customer having fulfilled all their obligations, then SWR would appear to be breaking the law.

The trouble is I don't think the passenger actually spoke to any SWR staff. He was starting his journey on the Heathrow to Woking Railair coach, which is run by National Express and the only staff at the bus station appeared to be National Express (and possibly TFL), but not SWR as they don't operate any trains there. The staff member he was speaking to were National Express.

 

[AlterEgo]

According to the RDG advance Q&A a rail plus partner ticket (which include through buses, TFL, etc) is treated the same as a rail only ticket. The customer should have been allowed on the next train. see text highlighted in red in quote below.

I don’t mean to pick, but how would NX be at fault with the closure of the M25?

The Advance tickets terms and conditions are clear in that you must not miss the first train in your itinerary under any circumstances else the ticket becomes invalid.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don’t mean to pick, but how would NX be at fault with the closure of the M25?

The Advance tickets terms and conditions are clear in that you must not miss the first train in your itinerary under any circumstances else the ticket becomes invalid.

You could say the same about it not being SWR's fault if a trespasser means the line gets closed. It doesn't make any difference as far as I can tell.

The question is of course whether the RailAir service qualifies as a service on which you can start your journey. If so, then if you are there at your starting point/station on time then everything else is (well, should be) the railway's problem.

 

[yorkie]

I wouldn't want you to go to any trouble over this as I'm afraid I didn't get the passengers details (though in hindsight it would have been an idea to ask him), so I wouldn't be able to pass on any information you might be able to find out.

I'll just mention it when I next see them; it's no trouble. Purely as a conversation in passing and not as anything official.

 

[221129]

I don’t mean to pick, but how would NX be at fault with the closure of the M25?

The Advance tickets terms and conditions are clear in that you must not miss the first train in your itinerary under any circumstances else the ticket becomes invalid.

Not entirely sure how this is relevant? This would be like when I turned up to the station this morning but my train was cancelled due to a fatality, it wasn't XCs fault so I should have to buy a brand new ticket for the next train? The Advance terms and conditions do not over rule the NRCoT which states that in the event of a missed connection you my use the next available service. It is industry policy that this includes partner plus tickets as mentioned.

 

[sheff1]

The question is of course whether the RailAir service qualifies as a service on which you can start your journey. If so, then if you are there at your starting point/station on time then everything else is (well, should be) the railway's problem.

Someone holding an AP ticket from Heathrow Bus to Honition routed "SWR & Railair" must be able to start their journey on a RailAir* coach. If the coach is cancelled and the passenger reaches Woking by other means I agree that SWR is then responsible for conveying them to Honiton by the next available train (or other means, if there is no available train).

Who though, if anyone, is responsible for facilitating the passenger's travel from Heathrow to Woking ? Not sure whether a taxi route was available with roads being closed. If not, I am guessing that train into Paddington and tube to Waterloo would be the best option. Whichever option is used, I doubt if National Express would be able to authorise it and I can't see how SWR can be responsible either. I look forward to the view of yorkie's legal contacts regarding the matter.

* I do note that the Woking coaches are no longer branded/described as such, but the ticket is clearly sold for use on the National Express coach.

 

[yorkie]

I spoke to a barrister today and he agreed with me that, as it was sold 'as a bundle', the ticket should remain valid in the event of the connection being missed due to a delay on the bus.

While is likely the coach company would be considered liable for any reasonable consequential losses, such as the cost of accommodation if the final train of the day is missed, the train company could not legitimately claim that the ticket was no longer valid on the next available train services to the destination on the ticket.

Such an argument would likely be considered a breach of consumer law.

The question of whether the train company or the passenger should initially pay for that accommodation, and attempt to claim it back from the coach company, is perhaps a bit more contentious, but the key issue for me here is that a representative of SWR appears to have breached consumer law by falsely claiming the ticket ceased to be valid, when the customer had done nothing wrong.

That is a serious matter, but no doubt the customer won't be pursuing it (at least not to any extent that would worry SWR), so SWR will likely get away with it.

It is unfortunate that certain train companies are regularly found breaking various laws, but that is the reality, sadly. I see or hear of all sorts of breaches occurring on a very regular basis. Train companies should not be complacent and expect to get away with it consistently though; they need to change their ways or they may one day find themselves in hot water.

 

[Haywain]

but the key issue for me here is that a representative of SWR appears to have breached consumer law by falsely claiming the ticket ceased to be valid,

We know now, or are pretty certain, that no SWR staff were involved and in all likelihood it was a National Express employee who made that claim. See post #21 for details.

 

[Be3G]

This is a situation I've often wished there could be more clarity on. We have a number of rail-bus links in the country with various combinations of integrated ticketing, (formerly) inclusion in the eNRT, journey planning and departures (though often not truly ‘live’) on the National Rail website and so forth. I don't use NR's site much but I think I'm correct in saying too that normal public service buses appear in the same way when journey planning as rail replacement buses do too, aside from the word ‘Bus’ in the origin/destination name.

The implication the industry gives, therefore, is that some of these bus links are fully integrated with the rail network – as indeed was probably the intention half a century ago when some of these bus links were put in place after Beeching had his way. Putting my ‘average Joe’ disguise on for a minute I'd therefore expect that if, for example, I hold an anytime single from Hunstanton Bus to London Terminals bought from a railway station, that I'm following an itinerary produced by the National Rail website, but the bus doesn't turn up and I therefore (for example) miss the last train of the day, the rail industry would help – however, I see no such indication that they would. In my eyes, if I've given money to the railways (whoever they are), and in return they've given me a bit of orange card, that means they endorse whatever is on the card as a means to provide me with the service I've purchased from them (a journey from A to B) so they should help if through no fault of my own that journey doesn't go to plan.

I used to wonder if it might be that bus links which featured in the eNRT and the official maps with timetable/route numbers might be afforded full railway protection against delays etc. but I've never seen any indication that would be the case – and now the eNRT doesn't include bus links anyway it's rather moot.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the knowledge base Advance Q&A, posted earlier by Owlman (#17), is it possible that in this sentence:
“1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger’s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train”
the word train can be taken by some staff too literally? Would it be better if it read “... first joint service” or can anyone think of some better wording...