GTR Chief Executive Charles Horton is resigning

[Downthelane]

I think I’d be looking to completely go back to the December 2017 timetable, .

As long as WGC get their fasts back then all issues will be forgiven....

The new timetable was designed to get more seats for all but too many in the comfort zone are unhappy as they have to share services.

Problems are clear for reasons known but the overall plan was a good one.

It's a real shame so many here were looking for failure months ago rather than be positive for the general good and next generation.

 

[JB_B]

This, 1000%.

I'm absolutely convinced that the RMT's agenda was to drive a franchise to failure, and they chose Southern as their battleground.

I think you've got it the wrong way round. RMT may not be perfect but they were just trying to defend their members interests - what else could they do?

DfT ( via GTR as a proxy) deliberately started it - their political motivation is evidenced here:-

https://www.civilserviceworld.com/a...logises-after-comments-spark-union-and-labour

 

[Agent_Squash]

Where do we go from here? Not an easy question as the whole franchise is a monumental mess, and because of ThamesLink/ there is now linkage between the southern and TL/GN sides. I think I’d be looking to completely go back to the December 2017 timetable, stabilise the whole thing by splitting the Southern and TL/GN franchises, and then completely re-plan the whole Thameslink programme, with a smaller selection of routes and a bit less through running. I’d then recruit a dedicated pool of drivers for the new Thameslink services and ensure they’re fully competent before trying to implement a timetable. Unfortunately someone would then be left accounting for a massive waste of public money.

And what do you tell Southern users (which makes up over 65% of GTR services) about their more reliable timetable going?

The Great Northern is not the centre of the known universe as you seem to think it is.

 

[bengley]

Unions don't want change, yet ASLEF have welcomed ETCS and ATO in the Thameslink core with open arms...

Maybe it's just DOO they don't want, you know, because it's crap?

 

[Ambient Sheep]

Charles Horton (with GTR COO Nick Brown) are up before the Transport Select Committee on Monday (1645) on the Rail Timetable Changes.
::
Charles Horton has a lot to answer for, but so have many others, including the DfT.
He was certainly not the architect of the timetable that collapsed.

I wonder if part of the reason he's resigned is so that he can speak freely about the DfT's part in all this without fear of getting sacked?

 

[158756]

Unions don't want change, yet ASLEF have welcomed ETCS and ATO in the Thameslink core with open arms...

Maybe it's just DOO they don't want, you know, because it's crap?

The technology to get rid of mainline train drivers doesn't yet exist, so ASLEF presumably don't see a threat to their members jobs from ATO. Perhaps it it was the RMT they might have gone on strike it they weren't given guarantees driverless trains won't happen this century.

DOO certainly exists and has been proven able to replace guards. It's a reason to go on strike, whether it will achieve anything or whether anyone not an RMT member should care is a separate issue.

 

[HH]

I was chatting about the situation at GTR a few weeks ago and opined that Horton was only still in the job so he could take the blame for everything and then a new person could be the saviour. Probably the latest fiasco means that this tactic has run its course - if you want to blame it all on Horton there comes a point when allowing him to stay on starts to look incompetent in itself.

 

[the sniper]

And the RMT followed with their usual childish response....

"This whole basket-case operation is a failure on every level."

A failure it may be, but the constant use of such language makes the RMT look very silly indeed.

Of all the broadly irrelevant turn of phrase that have tickled the fancy of people here, I have to say this is worthy of the least comment. I bet the vast majority of GTR customers would completely agree with and share that sentiment.

Horton danced with the devil and got burnt, more fool him. The usual suspects should hold a vigil...

 

[bramling]

And what do you tell Southern users (which makes up over 65% of GTR services) about their more reliable timetable going?

The Great Northern is not the centre of the known universe as you seem to think it is.

Keep the Southern timetable, and find a solution to the tiny fraction of services hitherto bound for GN.

 

[LLivery]

I was chatting about the situation at GTR a few weeks ago and opined that Horton was only still in the job so he could take the blame for everything and then a new person could be the saviour. Probably the latest fiasco means that this tactic has run its course - if you want to blame it all on Horton there comes a point when allowing him to stay on starts to look incompetent in itself.

I think that was coming very clear, it seems this entire franchise is just a shield for blame and Govia was stupid enough to take it and put their brand on it. If they retain Southeastern, the media and MPs will have a field day. Fortunately, everyone hates Grayling and the calls for him to resign isn't going anywhere. It will be interesting to see if Northern politicians and others will be strengthening their demands to see the Northern MD go (or stripped of the franchise).

 

[adc82140]

Of all the broadly irrelevant turn of phrase that have tickled the fancy of people here, I have to say this is worthy of the least comment. I bet the vast majority of GTR customers would completely agree with and share that sentiment.

I think the issue is though that although a lot of what the RMT are saying is relevant, Mick Cash trots out the same predictable lines over and over and people stop listening. He says "basket case" in pretty much every press release. Someone buy the man a thesaurus. Or a PR person.

 

[Robertj21a]

I think the issue is though that although a lot of what the RMT are saying is relevant, Mick Cash trots out the same predictable lines over and over and people stop listening. He says "basket case" in pretty much every press release. Someone buy the man a thesaurus. Or a PR person.

Agreed, very unfortunate to have him spouting off. Either remove him, or leave the media relations to someone more suited to the role.

 

[HH]

I think that was coming very clear, it seems this entire franchise is just a shield for blame and Govia was stupid enough to take it and put their brand on it. If they retain Southeastern, the media and MPs will have a field day. Fortunately, everyone hates Grayling and the calls for him to resign isn't going anywhere. It will be interesting to see if Northern politicians and others will be strengthening their demands to see the Northern MD go (or stripped of the franchise).

People have been telling DfT for years that their Thameslink plans were unworkable; it's not a message that they have ever wanted to hear. Plenty of decisions have made things worse too.

 

[AM9]

People have been telling DfT for years that their Thameslink plans were unworkable; it's not a message that they have ever wanted to hear. Plenty of decisions have made things worse too.

Some people have been telling the DfT that they think the Thameslink plans are unworkable. Those not blinded by their self-inflicted hatred of the DfT (or indeed Thameslink) are saying that the plan needs to be tested once there is a sufficient provision of stock and route trained drivers. To say that a plan is unworkable because it won't run with a tiny fraction of the drivers it needs is irrational and purile.

 

[jon0844]

Once the drivers are all set up, we can see if the idea is doomed to fail. I expect it will work until there are problems outside of the control of the railway.

Then it will be a nightmare with the potential for longer recovery times and less alternatives for passengers. There are many issues with the new timetable, but driver route knowledge wasn't one of them. I have no idea how long it needs to be fixed, but one day the drivers will all be ready.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Unions don't want change, yet ASLEF have welcomed ETCS and ATO in the Thameslink core with open arms...

Maybe it's just DOO they don't want, you know, because it's crap?

You only have to read ASLEF journal to realise ASLEF as an organisation don’t care about anything as much as they do Jeremy Corbyn / getting a labour government, not even the drivers paying £30 p/m.

A few months ago there was a massive article on forming a union for Venezuelan sex workers and a tiny, single paragraph about the fact the government was going to open its own academy to train new drivers!

However I will say at a LDC level, the individual reps are brilliant, ours are anyway.

But this is getting rather off topic so I apologise.

 

[jayah]

I think the issue is though that although a lot of what the RMT are saying is relevant, Mick Cash trots out the same predictable lines over and over and people stop listening. He says "basket case" in pretty much every press release. Someone buy the man a thesaurus. Or a PR person.

The RMT seems to lurch between incompetent government, useless Grayling / DfT and the promised land where said actors run the whole show.

DfT line is that the Readiness Board did not flag any show stoppers to its officials who were represented on it. It seems clear that even given the signalling of teething troubles, nobody in GTR expected the meltdown that actually took place.

So unless behind closed doors, GTR were doing the opposite and begging for a deferral and DfT refusing, GTR are surely to blame.

 

[morgainelive]

Good and about time he resigned . Any boss whose compsny policies allows staff to ignore disabled passengers and to tell them wait 2.5 hours and send themfrom station to station and tell them theres still no trains and to tell them to prevent disabled ppl from boarding as it causes a delay should not be at the top. Thameslink is a shambles and has dragged great northern down with all the timetable changes

 

[HH]

Some people have been telling the DfT that they think the Thameslink plans are unworkable. Those not blinded by their self-inflicted hatred of the DfT (or indeed Thameslink) are saying that the plan needs to be tested once there is a sufficient provision of stock and route trained drivers. To say that a plan is unworkable because it won't run with a tiny fraction of the drivers it needs is irrational and purile.

Generally, when calling something puerile, it's best to learn how to spell the word first.

Having spoken to the original architect of the Thameslink Plan, I know that even he admits the plan, as it currently exists, is unworkable. There's a good chance that it will run even worse when GTR finally have enough drivers to run all the intended services.

 

[Skimble19]

Good and about time he resigned . Any boss whose compsny policies allows staff to ignore disabled passengers and to tell them wait 2.5 hours and send themfrom station to station and tell them theres still no trains and to tell them to prevent disabled ppl from boarding as it causes a delay should not be at the top. Thameslink is a shambles and has dragged great northern down with all the timetable changes

Got to love an entirely inaccurate rant.

Whilst a lot of us internally were overjoyed to hear he was finally leaving, barely any of what you have posted above is correct and is at best extremely over exaggerated and twisted from any fact.

The only bit of your post that is true is that very sadly Great Northern has been dragged into the gutter by this.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Anyone please recall , proud comments on the greatest driver recruitment programe ever ? ..

In the words of Ajax , in one of the best films ever "The Warriors" - aligned to the NY Subway in the 1970's , - "Where are they" ....

 

[Darandio]

Of all the broadly irrelevant turn of phrase that have tickled the fancy of people here, I have to say this is worthy of the least comment. I bet the vast majority of GTR customers would completely agree with and share that sentiment.

I disagree, it's repetetive childish drivel. @adc82140 summed it up fairly well above.

 

[bramling]

Anyone please recall , proud comments on the greatest driver recruitment programe ever ? ..

In the words of Ajax , in one of the best films ever "The Warriors" - aligned to the NY Subway in the 1970's , - "Where are they" ....

What grates me, based on snippets picked up from here, is that *if* it's the case that the so-called "Thameslink Readiness Board" (*) weren't flagging up any risks, surely someone in a senior position at DFT might have thought to ask the question "how many drivers are currently ready and competent to operate a train from Peterborough to Horsham?". If I'd been hearing single-figure numbers even within a couple of months of go-live date I'd have been sufficiently worried to be probing a lot deeper. I'm struggling to think of any rail projects I know where someone has attempted to implement a major change "on the fly". Even relatively minor resignallings or fleet replacements have all been accompanied by extra resource being budgeted as part of "the project" in order to allow BAU to continue in the meantime.

It really does seem to be a project being overseen by a bunch of children.

(* I presume that's how we write it, apologies if it should be ThamesLink/ Readiness Board).

 

[Bromley boy]

Got to love an entirely inaccurate rant.

Whilst a lot of us internally were overjoyed to hear he was finally leaving, barely any of what you have posted above is correct and is at best extremely over exaggerated and twisted from any fact.

The only bit of your post that is true is that very sadly Great Northern has been dragged into the gutter by this.

Were the comments about 2.5 hours between trains and disabled people being left behind “entirely inaccurate”, then?!

I can assure you they are 100% true.

 

[jon0844]

Wheelchairs at a terminal station shouldn't be boarded less than 1 minute before departure isn't it? Doors close 30 seconds before.

I do think there has to be a cut off point as even able bodied people must arrive before the doors close but can board on the nearest door. On a 700 it has to be at the middle.

At ordinary stations it's different.

I don't know where 2.5 hours comes from and anyone who arrives late can expect not to travel.

I doubt people in wheelchairs ever arrive that late anyway, but if they do surely there has to be a cut off point?

 

[morgainelive]

I personally have experienced it and yes i was told by staff to just wait 2.5 hours at Finsbury Park. they did not care so i struggled to St pancras to then be told no trains for 1.5 hours and told id have to walk over to Kings Cross i saud that it was ridiculous that there was no infornation no assistance for reduced mobiliry people such as myself an absolute shame on them! whats even worse is there is no e mail complaint/feedback so we have to pay to write a complaint. It is tome soneone else sorted this mess out and start working together rather than passing the blame
and the 2.5 hours is the time i was told to wait at Finsbury park great customer service not

 

[Bromley boy]

I personally have experienced it and yes i was told by staff to just wait 2.5 hours at Finsbury Park. they did not care so i struggled to St pancras to then be told no trains for 1.5 hours and told id have to walk over to Kings Cross i saud that it was ridiculous that there was no infornation no assistance for reduced mobiliry people such as myself an absolute shame on them! whats even worse is there is no e mail complaint/feedback so we have to pay to write a complaint. It is tome soneone else sorted this mess out and start working together rather than passing the blame
and the 2.5 hours is the time i was told to wait at Finsbury park great customer service not

And there we have it.

Perhaps @Skimble19 could now respond to explain how this passenger’s first-hand experience is “entirely inaccurate”.

What a shameful way to treat people.

 

[AM9]

Generally, when calling something puerile, it's best to learn how to spell the word first. ...

Actually it was a typo on a tablet, (not my preferred entry hardware) but your point is taken re the spelling as actually printed.

 

[Skimble19]

I personally have experienced it and yes i was told by staff to just wait 2.5 hours at Finsbury Park. they did not care so i struggled to St pancras to then be told no trains for 1.5 hours and told id have to walk over to Kings Cross i saud that it was ridiculous that there was no infornation no assistance for reduced mobiliry people such as myself an absolute shame on them! whats even worse is there is no e mail complaint/feedback so we have to pay to write a complaint. It is tome soneone else sorted this mess out and start working together rather than passing the blame
and the 2.5 hours is the time i was told to wait at Finsbury park great customer service not

Where were you trying to travel to? Was it just you asked to wait 2.5 hours or all passengers travelling to the same destination as you? I'm sorry but knowing many of the staff at both Finsbury Park and Kings Cross this simply does not seem accurate.. If you wish to have assistance you can either book it in advance (recommended but not compulsory!) Or request it on arrival at the station - for you to have been turned down at all 3 stations would be incredibly unlikely and frankly totally unacceptable, so if this was the case then you do not need to pay to put in a formal complaint, you can do so here:

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/help-and-support/contact-us

I do however fully agree with you that it is time this mess was sorted out and the buck passing was stopped - it's not helping anyone.

And there we have it.

Perhaps @Skimble19 could now respond to explain how this passenger’s first-hand experience is “entirely inaccurate”.

What a shameful way to treat people.

A post on this forum does not make it any more accurate or true than the average Twitter post without proof, of which there has been none so far..

For the record I am not denying there may have been a gap in service of 2.5 hours, I've personally witnessed gaps of up to 5.5 hours in the last few weeks..

Wheelchairs at a terminal station shouldn't be boarded less than 1 minute before departure isn't it? Doors close 30 seconds before.

I do think there has to be a cut off point as even able bodied people must arrive before the doors close but can board on the nearest door. On a 700 it has to be at the middle.

At ordinary stations it's different.

I don't know where 2.5 hours comes from and anyone who arrives late can expect not to travel.

I doubt people in wheelchairs ever arrive that late anyway, but if they do surely there has to be a cut off point?

Completely agree with this.

 

[HH]

Actually it was a typo on a tablet, (not my preferred entry hardware) but your point is taken re the spelling as actually printed.

My real point was that insults are easy to throw around, but don't advance your argument one bit. Best therefore to leave them out and not open yourself to a cheap shot.

Thameslink has a number of fundamental problems; for instance there is the problem, when you have to fit 24 (or even 16) trains an hour through the core, of delivering them to the core on time, particularly when they are coming from multiple starting points, without which the whole timetable is FUBARRED. Then there's the problem of delays on one section of the network affecting other sections, due to the multiple start and end points. Plus the various decisions, including political decisions, that have adversely affected performance.