GTR Chief Executive Charles Horton is resigning

[morgainelive]

Where were you trying to travel to? Was it just you asked to wait 2.5 hours or all passengers travelling to the same destination as you? I'm sorry but knowing many of the staff at both Finsbury Park and Kings Cross this simply does not seem accurate.. If you wish to have assistance you can either book it in advance (recommended but not compulsory!) Or request it on arrival at the station - for you to have been turned down any all 3 stations would be incredibly unlikely, but if you believe this to be the case then you do not need to pay to put in a formal complaint, you can do so here:

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/help-and-support/contact-us

Point is staff didn't seem to care apart from one lady in st Pancras who seemed embarassed and yes this was AT FInsbury Park i had to go to St Pancras to then be told to walk over to Kings x try it on crutches its not a fun experience the point in all of this is train companies need to sharpen up on customer care there are too many gateline staff and npt enough staff looking about for people who might need help i did put in a complaint and all i got was the standard heres the delay here is the refund . London is very inaccessible in parts and more could be done to help reduced mobility passengers

 

[Bromley boy]

Where were you trying to travel to? Was it just you asked to wait 2.5 hours or all passengers travelling to the same destination as you? I'm sorry but knowing many of the staff at both Finsbury Park and Kings Cross this simply does not seem accurate.. If you wish to have assistance you can either book it in advance (recommended but not compulsory!) Or request it on arrival at the station - for you to have been turned down at all 3 stations would be incredibly unlikely, but if you believe this to be the case then you do not need to pay to put in a formal complaint, you can do so here:

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/help-and-support/contact-us


A post on this forum does not make it any more accurate or true than the average Twitter post without proof, of which there has been none so far..

I presume you’re some kind of middle manager at GTR?

I can tell you for a fact that wheelchair passengers have been left behind by GTR trains in the last couple of weeks. I can also vouch for the fact that some of the new Thameslink routes have gone for three hours-ish without any TL trains in recent weeks.

Perhaps you should be apologising for the absolute charade of a service you are offering, rather than making excuses and posting links to the TL website?!

 

[Please Explain]

Good riddance!

 

[bramling]

My real point was that insults are easy to throw around, but don't advance your argument one bit. Best therefore to leave them out and not open yourself to a cheap shot.

Thameslink has a number of fundamental problems; for instance there is the problem, when you have to fit 24 (or even 16) trains an hour through the core, of delivering them to the core on time, particularly when they are coming from multiple starting points, without which the whole timetable is FUBARRED. Then there's the problem of delays on one section of the network affecting other sections, due to the multiple start and end points. Plus the various decisions, including political decisions, that have adversely affected performance.

You’ll notice AM9 tends to ignore anything on operational detail, instead just repeating the same stuff about capacity, or - if “lucky” - we may get a very long explanation of how he thinks season ticket holders pay less per mile than others and are therefore subsidised.

There are plenty of posts on here where suggestions have been made as to how a more reliable service could be provided whilst at the same time maintaining a large amount of the capacity increase Thameslink Programme has attempted and failed to deliver.

Many with experience of the network concerned have been predicting for ages that this project would run into problems. Operationally it’s a nightmare, and the planning has always (and this is being charitable) given the impression of failing to appreciate the scale of what they were attempting to achieve. So far these predictions have turned out to be entirely correct, in fact reality is far worse than even the most pessimistic predictions, and there’s little if any evidence that the powers that be have any idea how to get out of this mess - the chief has gone, the service is erratic from one day to the next, and the railway as a whole is evidently completely overwhelmed and unable to cope with the scale of disruption ThamesLink/ has brought to it, hence why we are seeing gaps of several hours or trains sitting in a platform for 20 minutes on a conflicting clear signal unexpectedly awaiting crew relief with no one knowing what’s going on.

 

[AM9]

You’ll notice AM9 tends to ignore anything on operational detail, instead just repeating the same stuff about capacity, or - if “lucky” - we may get a very long explanation of how he thinks season ticket holders pay less per mile than others and are therefore subsidised.

Yes you are right. I am and not have never been anything to do with the railway except as a fare-paying passenger. I merely read information on what is happening with (in this case) the operation of Thameslink services - sometimes by filtering the facts from some of the rants on the latest threads, as well as other factual sources. Then there is the long-term impact of public acceptance and the defensive actions of politicians in the light of large public expenditure (c. £6bn for TL?) which tends to allow original plans to survive with minimal fundamental change maybe even to dress the scheme up as totally effective.
The season ticket issues are off-topic for this thread and I've made my views clear in the appropriate places but don't let it get in the way of an general attack on my posts. They don't bother me so try not to let it get under your skin.

 

[A0]

I take you have full knowledge of how my union goes about its business then. You seem to be adamant that they don't want change.. I'll give you a very good starter with the WCML. How do you propose bringing it into a company that runs said rural routes and places where it would cost a fortune to implement (LNWR/WMT) I look forward to this......

Not at all - but how the union does business is irrelevant.

The point I was making - and LNW is a good example - is there are some routes for which DOO is a bit of a no-brainer, I'd suggest any of the services from Northampton and points south to Euston. Bedford - London is DOO for Thameslink, the nature of the LNW services from Northampton is no different.

How you work that into a franchise where there are also services that also need a guard - if only for revenue protection as the stations are unmanned - is a good question. But it's not beyond the wit of man - the bus companies dealt with it in the 1970s where they were running OMO routes and 2 man routes out of the same depots concurrently.

 

[bramling]

Yes you are right. I am and not have never been anything to do with the railway except as a fare-paying passenger. I merely read information on what is happening with (in this case) the operation of Thameslink services - sometimes by filtering the facts from some of the rants on the latest threads, as well as other factual sources. Then there is the long-term impact of public acceptance and the defensive actions of politicians in the light of large public expenditure (c. £6bn for TL?) which tends to allow original plans to survive with minimal fundamental change maybe even to dress the scheme up as totally effective.

Right, so repeating the same nonsense over and over again about capacity is futile when it doesn't help deliver something which is actually viable. Lots of people, myself included, have been posting on here for ages concerns about the viability of this project in the *real world*, and (unfortunately) we were right -- in fact reality is a lot *worse*. It would be interesting to hear your view on some of the more viable alternatives which have been suggested by posters on here, which would deliver a large amount of the extra capacity without imposing such a performance and reliability risk as the current failed version of the Thameslink Programme.

In the meantime I'm increasingly coming to the view that there's little viable alternative now but to somehow find a way of restoring the previous timetable. The whole service is getting worse by the day, and this fiasco simply can't go on. The whole Thameslink Programme needs to be abandoned for now, at least until someone can actually demonstrate there's a viable plan, both for implementation and day-to-day running.

 

[SamYeager]

In the meantime I'm increasingly coming to the view that there's little viable alternative now but to somehow find a way of restoring the previous timetable. The whole service is getting worse by the day, and this fiasco simply can't go on. The whole Thameslink Programme needs to be abandoned for now, at least until someone can actually demonstrate there's a viable plan, both for implementation and day-to-day running.

The bramling method to fixing disruption - let's just make another massive change to the Thameslink timetable and ignore how this might impact other parts of the country because we all know that Thameslink and its passengers are the centre of the universe! If you're not already one then become a politician because they're expects at coming up with impractical ideas and you'd fit right in.

 

[bramling]

The bramling method to fixing disruption - let's just make another massive change to the Thameslink timetable and ignore how this might impact other parts of the country because we all know that Thameslink and its passengers are the centre of the universe! If you're not already one then become a politician because they're expects at coming up with impractical ideas and you'd fit right in.

How about you propose something which might resolve the current fiasco? It would be possible to backtrack on the GN side only having to worry about Cambridge and Peterborough areas, which shouldn’t be that much to overcome. This leaves a handful of through services south of the river, most of which aren’t even running anyway, to find another method of terminating.

There comes a point when people have to realise this timetable change simple hasn't worked, and it's not just as simple as teething problems. Things are not improving - they're getting steadily worse with every day which passes.

 

[infobleep]

If anyone would like to watch, the Transport Select Committee are are hold a BBQ at 4.45pm today. One of those being grilled is Charles Horton. Might be quite tastey.

https://calendar.parliament.uk/

 

[Robertj21a]

Right, so repeating the same nonsense over and over again about capacity is futile when it doesn't help deliver something which is actually viable. Lots of people, myself included, have been posting on here for ages concerns about the viability of this project in the *real world*, and (unfortunately) we were right -- in fact reality is a lot *worse*. It would be interesting to hear your view on some of the more viable alternatives which have been suggested by posters on here, which would deliver a large amount of the extra capacity without imposing such a performance and reliability risk as the current failed version of the Thameslink Programme.

In the meantime I'm increasingly coming to the view that there's little viable alternative now but to somehow find a way of restoring the previous timetable. The whole service is getting worse by the day, and this fiasco simply can't go on. The whole Thameslink Programme needs to be abandoned for now, at least until someone can actually demonstrate there's a viable plan, both for implementation and day-to-day running.

I thought the whole point about the changes was that it affected such a vast number of other routes/TOCs/services etc. Why should all that be undone so (relatively) soon ?. Are you suggesting that those looking into the current issues will be unable to solve it ?

 

[bramling]

I thought the whole point about the changes was that it affected such a vast number of other routes/TOCs/services etc. Why should all that be undone so (relatively) soon ?. Are you suggesting that those looking into the current issues will be unable to solve it ?

As a whole, yes it does affect other areas. However on the GN side at least, VTEC is the main other user, and their timetable has only barely changed - mainly tweaks to minutes here and there to fit round GTR. This is the only other GN user south of Peterborough and Cambridge apart from a small handful of GC and HT services. So you’re then left with a half-hourly Cambridge to Liverpool Street service, a handful of hourly or less regional services at Cambridge and Peterborough, plus of course GA peak King’s Lynn services -- all of which are comparatively insignificant compared to the busy GTR services.

South of the river it would be much more of an issue, likewise on the Midland side. Hence it's probably best to leave these alone, and somehow find a solution to what to do with the 2tph Horsham service and 1tph Brighton service, many or most of which aren't running now anyway, but at least most of these destinations have alternatives, or could have an alternative provided relatively easily.

I can’t see the current service being able to be fixed as it is, it’s just too much in meltdown. Currently sitting on a train into London, about 15 drivers all travelling pass, no idea what they’re going to be doing, can’t get through to anyone to make arrangements about their duty, many of whom should have already picked up a train, and several saying they refuse to pick up if they aren’t guaranteed transport home. The impression, in full view of passengers (*), is one of total and utter chaos, an operation which has lost control of its resources.

I think many observers on here who haven’t had first-hand experience of the service have little idea just how far this railway has melted down.

(* As an aside, it really looks bad to have large numbers of drivers travelling around on the cushions, openly and loudly slagging off their employer, whilst farepaying passengers are standing, but that’s another issue)

 

[fusionblue]

This project has been a mess in increasing amounts for a few years and now it's even more confusing than it should be.

What was the ultimate aim of the project?

1. Increase frequency in the core? (because this isnt going well, presumably because of overreach)
2. Increase frequency on the three legacy routes? (legacy being sevenoaks, sutton and to bedford? mostly no. sevenoaks only got 4tph because sutton route didnt want blackfriars terminators)
3. Increase length of trains? (no, only bedford to brighton got that)
4. Improve infrastructure/stations on the existing legacy routes? (no. the entire sevenoaks and sutton loop, including Elephant, saw no work as a result of the project)

 

[HH]

This project has been a mess in increasing amounts for a few years and now it's even more confusing than it should be.

What was the ultimate aim of the project?

1. Increase frequency in the core? (because this isnt going well, presumably because of overreach)
2. Increase frequency on the three legacy routes? (legacy being sevenoaks, sutton and to bedford? mostly no. sevenoaks only got 4tph because sutton route didnt want blackfriars terminators)
3. Increase length of trains? (no, only bedford to brighton got that)
4. Improve infrastructure/stations on the existing legacy routes? (no. the entire sevenoaks and sutton loop, including Elephant, saw no work as a result of the project)

1. This was the major aim, but while the core is OK, getting to the core is mostly on unimproved, older infrastructure (see 4).
2. Sutton/Sevenoaks is one where good operational sense was overwritten by knee-jerk politics.
3. Not entirely true, but it's actually one of the problems - lots of fixed formation 12-car trains running around off-peak.
4. Which is the key issue; if the train turns up to the core late then it misses its slot and causes enormous problems to the whole network.

 

[bramling]

This project has been a mess in increasing amounts for a few years and now it's even more confusing than it should be.

What was the ultimate aim of the project?

1. Increase frequency in the core? (because this isnt going well, presumably because of overreach)
2. Increase frequency on the three legacy routes? (legacy being sevenoaks, sutton and to bedford? mostly no. sevenoaks only got 4tph because sutton route didnt want blackfriars terminators)
3. Increase length of trains? (no, only bedford to brighton got that)
4. Improve infrastructure/stations on the existing legacy routes? (no. the entire sevenoaks and sutton loop, including Elephant, saw no work as a result of the project)

This is the problem - the whole thing is just a badly designed mess. We hear so much about capacity on here, but over half the 700s are 8 cars only.

They should have upgraded the old Thameslink operation to as many 12 cars as possible, and upped the frequency where possible. Then gradually introduced some extra Thameslink services to/from Great Northern, on top of the old frequency as far as possible, again running as many 12 cars as possible - with platform lengthening where possible.

From having tried to do to much *and* too much in too short a time, they've basically lost control over the railway they're trying to run. When I hear a driver on the phone to his manager saying what services he's prepared to run and when, and only if they book him a taxi home, it's clear the whole operation has completely fallen apart - which we knew anyway from the massive gaps many stations have been experiencing.

 

[bramling]

1. This was the major aim, but while the core is OK, getting to the core is mostly on unimproved, older infrastructure (see 4).
2. Sutton/Sevenoaks is one where good operational sense was overwritten by knee-jerk politics.
3. Not entirely true, but it's actually one of the problems - lots of fixed formation 12-car trains running around off-peak.
4. Which is the key issue; if the train turns up to the core late then it misses its slot and causes enormous problems to the whole network.

I agree with all of this. A lot of people were fixated with the core's proposed 24tph service, and completely overlooked the issue that the main issue would be outwards of the core. So little has been done to the infrastructure outside the core area, and many have been rightly saying for ages that this infrastructure is simply not capable of supporting the planned service -- this is not just the physical infrastructure but the signalling and control setup too.

As regards Sutton, this is another mess -- Blackfriars rebuilt in a particular way to at least partly provide for a service which now isn't going to run. Then we have the Caterham/Tattenham Corner situation -- two backwater branches added to Thameslink merely to provide a reversing facility, then being instrumental in the specification of 8-car trains, then a late change to Rainham causing all sorts of issues as well as quite understandably pissing people off in the Medway area.

On top of this uncomfortable trains lacking the features people want and expect, and in many cases had on their previous trains, and now apparently not gaining reliability as quickly as they should either.

Mistake after mistake, misjudgement after misjudgement, now shambles after shambles. FailedPlan2020.

 

[Bromley boy]

(It really looks bad to have large numbers of drivers travelling around on the cushions, openly and loudly slagging off their employer, whilst farepaying passengers are standing, but that’s another issue)

I agree that is a little unprofessional.

On the other hand it’s inevitable that, when the TOC itself is being run so unprofessionally, goodwill and any feelings of “professionalism” amongst staff rapidly evaporate!

 

[bramling]

I agree that is a little unprofessional.

On the other hand it’s inevitable that, when the TOC itself is being run so unprofessionally, goodwill and any feelings of “professionalism” amongst staff rapidly evaporate!

Indeed agreed. I'm not quite sure why there should be so many staff travelling pass - has there been that much displacement of drivers from depot to depot, or is this more likely to be drivers travelling pass to get to their next pickup in leiu of driving a cancelled service? It all looks like an apple cart which has been well and truly upset!

(At least with the old trains there were plenty of unused cabs where staff could travel around out of sight!).

 

[ComUtoR]

I refused 3 entry into my cab this morning. They all passed up behind me. I couldn't say if they were seated or not but they were then traveling pass. Each had a unique reason why.

 

[bramling]

I refused 3 entry into my cab this morning. They all passed up behind me. I couldn't say if they were seated or not but they were then traveling pass. Each had a unique reason why.

From listening to the tone of conversation, it seems it may only be a matter of time before ER issues start cropping up and disrupting things even further. The general mood I picked up was basically "goodwill now run out, now starting to be as awkward as possible". Quite understandable, but certainly not going to help things improve, and really not a conversation which should be being broadcast in front of passengers. Anyone who has any thought that this situation is going to be resolved quickly is deluded - things are getting worse by the day.

 

[Bromley boy]

Indeed agreed. I'm not quite sure why there should be so many staff travelling pass - has there been that much displacement of drivers from depot to depot, or is this more likely to be drivers travelling pass to get to their next pickup in leiu of driving a cancelled service? It all looks like an apple cart which has been well and truly upset!

It could be either, or simply drivers making best endeavours to get to where they think they need to be in lieu of instructions, amidst incomplete/cancelled diagrams (or even no diagrams at all).

Of course being unable to get through to control during disruption is a common issue, but becomes a much bigger problem when severe disruption is taking place every day!

(At least with the old trains there were plenty of unused cabs where staff could travel around out of sight!).

Very true. Some 465/6 combos, for example, can have as much as one cab per coach! Rather different on the 700s of course...

 

[bramling]

Of course being unable to get through to control during disruption is a common issue, but becomes a much bigger problem when severe disruption is taking place every day!

Agreed. One driver was trying to get through to control for 25 minutes with no success, and still hadn't when they all bar one alighted at Finsbury Park. I dread to think what the communications is like at present between control, the train crew depots, the rolling stock depots and signallers, it must be utter carnage.

 

[plcd1]

And has been replaced by Patrick Verwer, formerly of London Midland under Go Ahead's tenure.

https://www.go-ahead.com/en/media/n...patrick-verwer-as-ceo-of-govia-thameslin.html

Go-Ahead Group appoints Patrick Verwer as CEO of Govia Thameslink Railway
The Go-Ahead Group plc (GOG) has today appointed Patrick Verwer, former Managing Director of London Midland Trains, as CEO of Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR).

David Brown, CEO of Go-Ahead commented “I have full confidence in Patrick’s ability and determination to lead GTR and its team through the current difficulties and to deliver the long term benefits of the new timetable. Patrick brings with him a long history of collaborating with industry partners such as Network Rail and the DfT to deliver for customers.”

Patrick Verwer said “ I look forward to working with my new colleagues to deliver on the transformation that is already underway at GTR. My focus will be on ensuring we meet the needs of our customers each and every day.”

Patrick will join GTR in early July.

Patrick Verwer was Managing Director of London Midland between January 2012 and December 2017. Before that he worked in the transport industry in the UK and Europe, specialising in rail and airport services. He first came to the UK in 2003 as Managing Director of Merseyrail. Born and educated in the Netherlands, Patrick started his career in the Rotterdam Police Force rising to senior officer level.

 

[HH]

Buggins' turn.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wouldn’t do that job for all the tea in China.