Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[notlob.divad]

The extended platform 2 (old number) means that platform 1 would only have room for four cars or so.
Personally, I would have thought that was still useful, but it's not included in the plans.

It would also presumably mean that the extended platform 2 (current number) would be limited to 4 cars if something wanted to get to/from platform 1 as anything long sitting in platform 2 would block the junction.

That said, I agree. For the sake of making the current temporary crossover and signalling permanent, even if it was only used to store a spare 319 in case of a unit failure. Or for an isolated platform on the odd occasion when an EDL/BNP demonstration gets escorted out of the city via the loading bay. It would surely make sense just to keep the extra track and a shortened platform 0.

 

[mr_jrt]

What is it that blocks platform 1 from being lengthened? Not knowing the station, I can fairly safely suspect it's the cutting walls, but if the will was there could one of those be shaved back to give the clearance required to have the pointwork for platform 1 (current) off the end of the extended platform 2 (current)?

 

[nw-sparks]

What is it that blocks platform 1 from being lengthened? Not knowing the station, I can fairly safely suspect it's the cutting walls, but if the will was there could one of those be shaved back to give the clearance required to have the pointwork for platform 1 (current) off the end of the extended platform 2 (current)?

The end of the extended platform 2 will be at the tunnel face of the rat-hole (Copperas Hill Tunnel, I think) so no room for pointwork.

 

[mr_jrt]

Thanks for that. Having had a little read-up, it seems the Copperas Hill tunnel is a fairly strange beastie, and if I read the images right, there appears to be two bores under each section of bridge? The short western bore under the car park link sticks out like a sore thumb. Surely it could be removed with the bridge lengthened? That said, said bridge sittting above it also seems largely redundant and could also probably be removed without much impact (you could just have a junction onto Copperas Hill past the cutting if you still wanted a road link). The longer section under Copperas Hill itself looks like it could also be removed, abet you would probably have to replace the entire bridge, I suspect. If you were going to widen the cutting you may probably want to do that regardless, so I don't think it makes things less viable (not that they were to begin with!)

 

[driver_m]

One of the bridges above is only used for car parking, but I'd guess it's likely to aid structural integrity, and as we've seen already, another collapse wouldn't be appreciated too much! Already had two in recent years.

 

[fowler9]

It's a shame it can't go to eleven platforms but I guess the lines coming down the cuttings are almost at capacity anyway.

 

[B&I]

One of the bridges above is only used for car parking, but I'd guess it's likely to aid structural integrity, and as we've seen already, another collapse wouldn't be appreciated too much! Already had two in recent years.

Aren't the bridges listed ?

 

[fowler9]

Aren't the bridges listed ?

I would guess without spending a hell of a lot more money anyway it would be impossible.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

It's a shame it can't go to eleven platforms but I guess the lines coming down the cuttings are almost at capacity anyway.

Though only one extra platform will be added in the grand scheme of things, I believe the original plans had all platforms extended to the point they could accommodate a Class 390 unit, the longest trains that currently occupy platforms at Liverpool Lime Street by very much a long shot, since even a nine-coach unit is more than twice the length of the standard four-car London Northwestern Railway Class 350 unit. As such you might be able to put more trains in shared platforms if necessary, though that would require extensive and efficient planning. But longer lengths could allow more flexibility.

 

[B&I]

Though only one extra platform will be added in the grand scheme of things, I believe the original plans had all platforms extended to the point they could accommodate a Class 390 unit, the longest trains that currently occupy platforms at Liverpool Lime Street by very much a long shot, since even a nine-coach unit is more than twice the length of the standard four-car London Northwestern Railway Class 350 unit. As such you might be able to put more trains in shared platforms if necessary, though that would require extensive and efficient planning. But longer lengths could allow more flexibility.

The next significant capacity enhancement at Lime Street is likely to be most or all of the local terminators going underground, though God alone knows when

 

[childwallblues]

Question re Liverpool South Parkway - Platform 4 - as this is being used to terminate the Virgin Euston Service - which exits out the Liverpool end of the platform and returns to London via Platform 3 - what is the purpose of the signal at the london end of the platform - and why cant the Euston train exit in the 'usual' direction'?

Was there on Sunday - Very busy - but hats off to the station staff for avoiding chaos and making the temp arrangements work very well - didnt realise on a sunday that the 15 minute Northern Line Service - of the 4 departures an hour 2 run fast to Liverpool Central then on to Kirkby - so a very quick transfer into the city

Good effort really!

The next significant capacity enhancement at Lime Street is likely to be most or all of the local terminators going underground, though God alone knows when

Back to the 1970s MALTS report then. When the Northern line was extended under the city to allow the closure of Liverpool Exchange a short tunnel was built as a start to further extensions towards Ege Hill.

 

[Camden]

While the disruption of the work is huge, it is only a remodeling and platform altering project. It's also, by network rails own admission, the biggest investment in the station since the 19th century. Embarrassing!

If you were to take the timescale as an indication, that would put willingness to do anything further of a similar scale up to the early 23rd century.

Add in the the tunneling and stations investment involved means that the amount necessary would be a multitude of this value and you've gone well post Star Trek years. Are Control Periods specified in star dates yet?

This whole thing, right from the lack of ambition through to the chaotic and unapologised for launch and now into the day to day completely inadequate stand in provision (that people will have to suffer for nigh on two months - and over an hour on a once hourly stopping service crowded with three to four trains worth of passengers is causing suffering not just on the service itself, but also for passengers on ATW trains being impacted at Newton)... you can feel the embarrassment oozing out of the more conscientious employees.

I see that the Ordsall Chord services to the airport are also making matters worse, as the sole northern service to Victoria is also being used by people with luggage making the ridiculous connection there too... How many things can one industry mess up.

 

[childwallblues]

While the disruption of the work is huge, it is only a remodeling and platform altering project. It's also, by network rails own admission, the biggest investment in the station since the 19th century. Embarrassing!

If you were to take the timescale as an indication, that would put willingness to do anything further of a similar scale up to the early 23rd century.

Add in the the tunneling and stations investment involved means that the amount necessary would be a multitude of this value and you've gone well post Star Trek years. Are Control Periods specified in star dates yet?

This whole thing, right from the lack of ambition through to the chaotic and unapologised for launch and now into the day to day completely inadequate stand in provision (that people will have to suffer for nigh on two months - and over an hour on a once hourly stopping service crowded with three to four trains worth of passengers is causing suffering not just on the service itself, but also for passengers on ATW trains being impacted at Newton)... you can feel the embarrassment oozing out of the more conscientious employees.
ne
I see that the Ordsall Chord services to the airport are also making matters worse, as the sole northern service to Victoria is also being used by people with luggage making the ridiculous connection there too... How many things can one industry mess up.

People up North are much more patient than youseemingly are. What has been done (especially at Liverpool South Parkway) to help passengers has been amazing.
As far as the Huyton line is concerned whilst they have a limited overcrowded service they at least have a service. There is a rail replacement bus also with imports by Arriva from as far away as Rhyl and Stagecoach from the South Coast.
As far as Newton-le-Willows is concerned the situation will continue long after Lime Street is finished due to the withdrawal of the all stations Lime Street to Manchester Victoria service.

 

[B&I]

People up North are much more patient than youseemingly are. What has been done (especially at Liverpool South Parkway) to help passengers has been amazing.
As far as the Huyton line is concerned whilst they have a limited overcrowded service they at least have a service. There is a rail replacement bus also with imports by Arriva from as far away as Rhyl and Stagecoach from the South Coast.
As far as Newton-le-Willows is concerned the situation will continue long after Lime Street is finished due to the withdrawal of the all stations Lime Street to Manchester Victoria service.

As usual, the contrast between the efforts to ameliorate the disruption of Merseyrail (based in Liverpool, sole purpose = serving Liverpool area) and Northern / TPE (give the impression that serving Liverpool is a painful duty they will shirk at every opportunity) is stark.

More generally, and this does not just apply to Liverpool, the deterioration in ambition displayed on the railways almost everywhere (except on lines serving London) is depressing. In the 70s, 2 tunnels and (effectively) 3 new stations were built under Liverpool in less than 5 years. Nowadays? We take almost 2 years to rearrange a set of surface level platforms and tracks. Why is this ?

Better stop this thread now before it gets locked.

 

[driver_m]

Glass half empty B&I? It's a fiendishly complex area to renew as you are well aware of. Look how long it took to clean up the mess left from the collapsing wall.

Then look at what's coming.
Eventual 2 an hour Liverpool-Euston for HS2
New Chester service, then followed by extension into North and South Wales.
Liverpool-Bradford service via Calder Valley when Northern get their act together.
Scottish services returning after a long break
Likelihood of increase in staff when Liverpool-Nottingham service takes over from EMT which has no staff over here .
New TPE stock for all routes
XC mention of consultation on returning services in its ITT
Better stock for LNWR services.
Newest signalling on the entire West Coast

 

[B&I]

Glass half empty B&I? It's a fiendishly complex area to renew as you are well aware of. Look how long it took to clean up the mess left from the collapsing wall.

Then look at what's coming.
Eventual 2 an hour Liverpool-Euston for HS2
New Chester service, then followed by extension into North and South Wales.
Liverpool-Bradford service via Calder Valley when Northern get their act together.
Scottish services returning after a long break
Likelihood of increase in staff when Liverpool-Nottingham service takes over from EMT which has no staff over here .
New TPE stock for all routes
XC mention of consultation on returning services in its ITT
Better stock for LNWR services.
Newest signalling on the entire West Coast

Yes I am mightily impressed by how quickly they rebuilt a wall whose parlous state they were apparently unaware of. As for the rest, all very impressive, but mostly the by-product of improvements being made elsewhere, the belated and half-hearted restoration of services which should never have been cut, or replacement of ancient infrastructure before it stops working. Perhaps enough to lift England's 5th biggest metropolitan area out of the bottom 2 in the rail connectivity tables for large cities.

 

[Camden]

People up North are much more patient than youseemingly are. What has been done (especially at Liverpool South Parkway) to help passengers has been amazing.
As far as the Huyton line is concerned whilst they have a limited overcrowded service they at least have a service. There is a rail replacement bus also with imports by Arriva from as far away as Rhyl and Stagecoach from the South Coast.
As far as Newton-le-Willows is concerned the situation will continue long after Lime Street is finished due to the withdrawal of the all stations Lime Street to Manchester Victoria service.

I appear to be a little more informed. The all stations service simply calls at Oxford road instead of victoria.

As for claiming contentment and infinite patience on behalf of all in the North, news reports and first hand observations wouldn't seem to back that.

Amazing you say? I've been in Lime Street early and late the past number of days, and what I have found amazing is the lack of network rail personnel and activity. Given the impact on human beings, plus that impact representing a serious dent in the local economy in various ways, for a metropolitan city of around 2 million people do you not think that getting its primary station back up and running as soon as possible might warrant 24 hour working?...

 

[urbophile]

As far as Newton-le-Willows is concerned the situation will continue long after Lime Street is finished due to the withdrawal of the all stations Lime Street to Manchester Victoria service.

I don't know what the latest (temporary) timetable says about the service to Newton le Willows. But as I understood it there are still likely to be only two trains an hour from Liverpool, one slow and one fast within a few minutes of each other, so effectively an hourly service. Yet a brand new station is being built. And on a line only recently electrified along which the majority of trains now appear to be diesel-operated. Does the left hand ever have planning meetings with the right?

 

[158756]

I don't know what the latest (temporary) timetable says about the service to Newton le Willows. But as I understood it there are still likely to be only two trains an hour from Liverpool, one slow and one fast within a few minutes of each other, so effectively an hourly service. Yet a brand new station is being built. And on a line only recently electrified along which the majority of trains now appear to be diesel-operated. Does the left hand ever have planning meetings with the right?

It's meant to get an extra service to Manchester at some point. (To where slightly more people actually commuted from Newton than Liverpool, as of 2011).

Most trains using the route from Huyton into Liverpool are (or should be) electric now. Unless you want to cut Liverpool off from destinations East of the Pennines diesel have to stay for the rest.

 

[Bevan Price]

It's meant to get an extra service to Manchester at some point. (To where slightly more people actually commuted from Newton than Liverpool, as of 2011).

Most trains using the route from Huyton into Liverpool are (or should be) electric now. Unless you want to cut Liverpool off from destinations East of the Pennines diesel have to stay for the rest.

It is St. Helens Junction that has suffered worst from the timetable changes. It has lost its fast services to both Liverpool & Manchester, and the service to Manchester cut from 2 to 1 per hour (outside peak hours.) Apart from a handful of peak hour trains, it now has no trains to Manchester Victoria (which is much more convenient for the main shopping areas than either Oxford Road or Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly.)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It is St. Helens Junction that has suffered worst from the timetable changes. It has lost its fast services to both Liverpool & Manchester, and the service to Manchester cut from 2 to 1 per hour (outside peak hours.) Apart from a handful of peak hour trains, it now has no trains to Manchester Victoria (which is much more convenient for the main shopping areas than either Oxford Road or Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly.)

The Calder Valley train (when it starts) should solve some of that.
St Helens itself wanted extra services at Lea Green rather than the Junction.

 

[DJH1971]

It is St. Helens Junction that has suffered worst from the timetable changes. It has lost its fast services to both Liverpool & Manchester, and the service to Manchester cut from 2 to 1 per hour (outside peak hours.) Apart from a handful of peak hour trains, it now has no trains to Manchester Victoria.

As this being my local station, I know only too well.

What was the point of making the car park bigger?

All this has done is seen a big upshot of illegally-parked cars at Lea Green.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Calder Valley train (when it starts) should solve some of that.
St Helens itself wanted extra services at Lea Green rather than the Junction.

That was the silly council, not the passengers, who, as far as I know, were never consulted.

 

[B&I]

I appear to be a little more informed. The all stations service simply calls at Oxford road instead of victoria.

As for claiming contentment and infinite patience on behalf of all in the North, news reports and first hand observations wouldn't seem to back that.

Amazing you say? I've been in Lime Street early and late the past number of days, and what I have found amazing is the lack of network rail personnel and activity. Given the impact on human beings, plus that impact representing a serious dent in the local economy in various ways, for a metropolitan city of around 2 million people do you not think that getting its primary station back up and running as soon as possible might warrant 24 hour working?...

This phenomenon is not unique to Lime Street, or Network Rail. Remember how little seemed to be going on most of the time at the Merseyrail underground stations during renovation ? How many lanes of road have you seen barriered off with no work in progress ? How many construction sites, hoardings swallowing pavements, bits of carriageway, whole streets, sit silent ?

Not sure who this sort of thing is supposed to benefit, but I suspect someone has worked out how to make money from the snail's pace at which most construction and infrastructure work proceeds in Britain. But I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to provide an unconvincing explanation.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That was the silly council, not the passengers, who, as far as I know, were never consulted.

TBF passenger numbers at Lea Green, especially in the peak hours, compared to those at St Helens Junction will have driven the change all by themselves.

 

[Camden]

Not sure who this sort of thing is supposed to benefit, but I suspect someone has worked out how to make money from the snail's pace at which most construction and infrastructure work proceeds in Britain. But I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to provide an unconvincing explanation.

While I don't disagree with the overall sentiment, the fact remains that round the clock efforts are not unprecedented on this kind of project. This one for a far less critical station: https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...s/tram-stop-victoria-reopen-wednesday-8666535

 

[childwallblues]

As usual, the contrast between the efforts to ameliorate the disruption of Merseyrail (based in Liverpool, sole purpose = serving Liverpool area) and Northern / TPE (give the impression that serving Liverpool is a painful duty they will shirk at every opportunity) is stark.

More generally, and this does not just apply to Liverpool, the deterioration in ambition displayed on the railways almost everywhere (except on lines serving London) is depressing. In the 70s, 2 tunnels and (effectively) 3 new stations were built under Liverpool in less than 5 years. Nowadays? We take almost 2 years to rearrange a set of surface level platforms and tracks. Why is this ?

Better stop this thread now before it gets locked.

A little thing called Health & Safety!

 

[modernrail]

There has been talk on here of diverting local trains underground. Despite being a regular of user of both the overground into Lime Street (or South Parkway yesterday (from London)) and the underground in Liverpool, I am really struggling to get my head around the proposed route from the main lines into the underground. Does anybody have a diagram or visual of some sort they could share on here? Even a good description would be helpful.

Also, I presume such a plan presumes only electrified routes could be diverted?

Presumably there is always the option to remove the short stay car park at Lime Street and add another two platforms there (as there were originally) - is this considered useful or would constraints on the throat mean this is not adding much capacity anyway?

For the record - the system at South Parkway seemed to run quite well for me yesterday. I came from Leeds to Liverpool and then left from Liverpool to London. The big giant caveat to this was the situation in Manchester. They seemed to be terminating all TPEX Lime Street services at Victoria and then you had to make your way over the Ordsall Chord to Oxford Road to pick up the EMT service to South Parkway. That is an attempt to squeeze 3 trains into 1. Of all the services to be allowed back into the limited platforms at Lime Street I would have thought at least 1 per hour TPEX would have been very sensible. Manchester in general feels like a mess now. Lots of diesel trains timetabled to run around a city centre system that is a bit like a roundabout with lots of stations doesn't feel like it works well at all. We stopped at least 4 times between Victoria and Oxford Road. I actually stayed on to Piccadilly to stand more chance of getting a seat on the EMT and we stopped a further 2 times at signals. It feels like Manchester is not going to work until most of the stock is electrified and the signalling is vastly improved to get rid of all this stop-start as different routes co-mingle. Also, am I right in thinking they have redesigned Stalybridge to give a better speed to trains running to Piccadilly and not Victoria even though the express services are now running to Victoria? If so...you could not make it up - seriously. That is a huge amount of taxpayer money wasted because somebody left their brain in the bin.

 

[M28361M]

There has been talk on here of diverting local trains underground. Despite being a regular of user of both the overground into Lime Street (or South Parkway yesterday (from London)) and the underground in Liverpool, I am really struggling to get my head around the proposed route from the main lines into the underground. Does anybody have a diagram or visual of some sort they could share on here? Even a good description would be helpful.

The most well-known proposal was the 1970s plan to reuse the abandoned Wapping Tunnel. This runs from Edge Hill to a former goods station at Wapping (near the Albert Dock) and crosses underneath the Merseyrail Northern Line tunnels just south of Liverpool Central.

The Merseyrail phase 2 proposals envisaged reopening the tunnel between Edge Hill and the city centre, and building new connecting tunnels to join it to Merseyrail. Some local services into Lime Street would have been diverted into the tunnel and run into Liverpool Central (and then, presumably, onward to other Northern Line destinations).

The project was abandoned due to lack of funds, the original Loop and Link project having gone considerably over budget. However some short lengths of tunnel were dug branching off the existing Northern Line tunnel, just enough to allow construction to proceed in future without disrupting the existing train service (although these days Network Rail would probably insist on a 3 year closure). The tunnels can be seen, if you know when to look, from trains heading to/from Hunts Cross. I understand that some land above Central station is still protected from development by Merseytravel to allow the project to proceed.

One problem with restarting this project today, apart from the prohibitive expense, is that Central cannot really cope with that many more passengers and would have to be rebuilt. However, as recently as 2016 a feasibility study was conducted into the resuse of Wapping Tunnel. (link to PDF here)

Of all the services to be allowed back into the limited platforms at Lime Street I would have thought at least 1 per hour TPEX would have been very sensible.

There were supposed to be 2 Northern services per hour between Victoria and Lime Street during the works however Northern's emergency timetable has reduced that to just one. TPE's website is recommending passengers connect with the Northern service at Victoria, but it seems journey planners are routing them over the Ordsall Chord instead.

 

[Camden]

The Merseyrail phase 2 proposals envisaged reopening the tunnel between Edge Hill and the city centre, and building new connecting tunnels to join it to Merseyrail. Some local services into Lime Street would have been diverted into the tunnel and run into Liverpool Central (and then, presumably, onward to other Northern Line destinations).

The project was abandoned due to lack of funds, the original Loop and Link project having gone considerably over budget.

Not sure where that information has come from. The loop and link project went smoothly, perhaps you're thinking of the Newcastle metro project which was a same era conception and was more complicated. The cancellation of the rest of the Merseytravel network was part of the same issue that affected a lot of other things at that time, which was the global economy and knock on issues of what was happening with oil prices at this time. The economy was decimated, and so anything that could be cancelled was cancelled. Even in London!

There were supposed to be 2 Northern services per hour between Victoria and Lime Street during the works however Northern's emergency timetable has reduced that to just one. TPE's website is recommending passengers connect with the Northern service at Victoria, but it seems journey planners are routing them over the Ordsall Chord instead.

I agree, the Ordsall Chord hasn't helped one jot. To make matters worse, I can't think of anything it has even improved.

If network rail were so concerned about Manchester airport bound TPEx trains crossing the throat of Piccadilly, the answer was simple - don't run them to the airport! Trains already on that path could easily do so instead, such as the Chester train (which ATW wanted anyway, and have been made to wait to get one).

Now we have trains interfering with Victoria services, plus extra congestion going through Oxford road. And people making inappropriate connections. (Probably only to find their hourly train from victoria to the airport is delayed or cancelled!)

Makes me wonder if creating bigger and bigger problems "requiring" more and more spend for bigger and bigger interventions is intentional.