East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[PR1Berske]

It does.
The branding must be East Midlands Railway.
A subtle change but an important one none the less.
That means it's highly likely the Stagecoach colours will disappear, even if it's them running the service as I can't see using Stagecoach branding colours with a different brand name, but I could be proved wrong.

Oh oops, thought I'd searched for all the right words to find it. "East Midlands Railway" isn't too bad.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Oh oops, thought I'd searched for all the right words to find it. "East Midlands Railway" isn't too bad.

Wouldn’t it be a waste of tome and money though if let’s say Stagecoach retained the franchise and repainted all the trains.

 

[ashworth]

The current 1 coach or two coach services on the line are very well used, and additional faster services are will only increase passenger numbers. The only other way to reduce journey times between Derby and Crewe would be line speed improvements. Currently the Derby to Crewe service takes 79 minutes to cover the 50 mile route. That is an average speed of only 37 miles per hour.

Faster journeys, and more importantly through trains to/from Crewe beyond Derby to Nottingham, could significantly increase passenger numbers on the route. This could be the fastest and most convenient route for journeys like Nottingham to Glasgow. Forgetting using the Settle to Carlisle route it always was many years ago the main route used from Nottingham for journeys to the North West and Scotland. Current journeys via Manchester or X/C via Edinburgh are not ideal and connections at Grantham for Scotland are not very good.

 

[Chester1]

Faster journeys, and more importantly through trains to/from Crewe beyond Derby to Nottingham, could significantly increase passenger numbers on the route. This could be the fastest and most convenient route for journeys like Nottingham to Glasgow. Forgetting using the Settle to Carlisle route it always was many years ago the main route used from Nottingham for journeys to the North West and Scotland. Current journeys via Manchester or X/C via Edinburgh are not ideal and connections at Grantham for Scotland are not very good.

You can't speak ill of Nottingham - Glasgow on this site! It must be introduced for the 1% of passengers who would use it!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There has been lots of lobbying from the Staffordshire Chamber of Commerce for extra capacity on this route including moving to half hourly services:

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/local-news/should-improvements-made-crewe-derby-962825

The current 1 coach or two coach services on the line are very well used, and additional faster services are will only increase passenger numbers. The only other way to reduce journey times between Derby and Crewe would be line speed improvements. Currently the Derby to Crewe service takes 79 minutes to cover the 50 mile route. That is an average speed of only 37 miles per hour.

Intriguing.

So what would be the best and most resource-sensible way of achieving this?

1tph stopping with a 1tp2h 'fast', or 1tp2h stopping and 1tph 'fast' or even 1tph stopper and 1tph fast?

You can readily get rid of Alsager and Kidsgrove (LNWR hourly service suffices, except peak when you could add in some calls); you could add LNWR into Longport and remove EMT from it.

You should probably get all trains to stop at Longton, although not all need call at Blythe Bridge. Uttoxeter definitely needs all trains to stop, Tutbury doesn't need all calls and Peartree is just a nonsense.

So what of 1tph Crewe to Norwich 4 car Class 222 calling Stoke, Longton, Blythe Bridge, Uttoxeter, Tutbury, Derby, Nottingham, Bingham, Bottesford, Grantham, Peterborough, March, Ely and off down to Norwich?

There's also nothing to suggest the franchisee couldn't extend to Manchester Airport via Wilmslow and Styal giving a highly-prized link between Norwich, Peterborough, Nottingham, Derby and Manchester Airport; as well as Stoke.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Intriguing.

So what would be the best and most resource-sensible way of achieving this?

1tph stopping with a 1tp2h 'fast', or 1tp2h stopping and 1tph 'fast' or even 1tph stopper and 1tph fast?

You can readily get rid of Alsager and Kidsgrove (LNWR hourly service suffices, except peak when you could add in some calls); you could add LNWR into Longport and remove EMT from it.

You should probably get all trains to stop at Longton, although not all need call at Blythe Bridge. Uttoxeter definitely needs all trains to stop, Tutbury doesn't need all calls and Peartree is just a nonsense.

So what of 1tph Crewe to Norwich 4 car Class 222 calling Stoke, Longton, Blythe Bridge, Uttoxeter, Tutbury, Derby, Nottingham, Bingham, Bottesford, Grantham, Peterborough, March, Ely and off down to Norwich?

There's also nothing to suggest the franchisee couldn't extend to Manchester Airport via Wilmslow and Styal giving a highly-prized link between Norwich, Peterborough, Nottingham, Derby and Manchester Airport; as well as Stoke.

Crewe - Lincoln in BR days had the unenviable reputation of being the slowest journey in the UK (even after Machynlleth to Pwllheli) , Crewe - Derby today is clearly underserved ,if not just in capacity - but in frequency - having see a 153 in most cases replacing a 156 ! , route certainly has potential , if not to Manchester Airport (this was tried in Central Trains days , and the loadings were awful.

Norwich - Crewe sounds like a good option , helping East Anglian connectivity , and with HS2 ......?

 

[WillPS]

Oh oops, thought I'd searched for all the right words to find it. "East Midlands Railway" isn't too bad.

There's no reason they (or any other successful bidder) would have to do anything to the trains other than apply a new vinyl over the old branding. Still plenty of units running around in First Great Western livery isn't there?

The paintjobs can wait until the paintwork is out of warranty (which intuitively I'd expect to be quite soon anyway).

 

[tbtc]

I don't see the sudden fascination with Crewe - Norwich... the idea of withdrawing the Liverpool service is partly due to reliability, so the answer is to then tag the Norwich service onto another destination (albeit one without being as big a draw as the combined pulling power of Sheffield/ Manchester/ Liverpool).

Still, the works at Derby will presumably allow more paths over the throat, which might mean more chance of a return to Crewe/Stoke - Nottingham. I certainly think that Derby - Nottingham needs to be more frequent - half hourly gaps in the service between two large places so close together is pretty terrible - TrentBarton can fill a coach every ten minutes between the two, but there are only three (relatively short) trains per hour.

Ideal world, I'd get some bi-modes and run a half hourly Manchester - Stockport - Macclesfield - Stoke - Derby service (replacing the Northern service through Macclesfield), but that'd take a lot of crayons

Hopefully when the Liverpool - Norwich gets transferred away, there is a cascade of 158s + addition of the ATW ones, so the local fleet is wholly 158s

I agree about the 158s. Cutting back the Liverpool service saves 12 units + spares which would more than componsate for replacing 17 x 153s and 15 x 156s with 24 W&B 158s. It would be a big improvement for routes served by 153s! Having a regional fleet of 49 x 158s would be simpler to manage and with an upgrade they would be good for the duration of the franchise

I agree with you both - the 158s would be fine for a big fleet of "local" trains on EMT - scrap the 153s and send the 156s to Northern.

Nottingham to Norwich isn't going via Melton Mowbray. Except the 2 morning services 0 trains per hour are specified all day.

Fair enough - thanks

The crossing move out of Grantham and the bit of two track out of Stoke Tunnel are pretty capacity-hungry and more and mor saturated these days.

That's my understanding too - the ECML paths would be better used by long 125mph electric trains rather than squeezing a two coach 90mph DMU through Stoke Tunnel.

Maybe if the Norwich service ran via Loughborough, with some of the freed up 158s (from the Liverpool service) used to provide an hourly Nottingham - Grantham service picking up the local stops (so the Skegness service can go faster west of Grantham)?

I guess whatever happens though, the Stagecoach colours will disappear.

They might just remove the diagonal "swoops" at the front of trains, the white bodies with blue skirts would be a simple enough livery for any new operator to take over.

Still, amongst all of the complaints on here about private companies always repainting things, nobody is complaining about the Government insisting that we spend money changing every reference to East Midlands Trains to East Midlands Railway.

You can't speak ill of Nottingham - Glasgow on this site! It must be introduced for the 1% of passengers who would use it!

 

[B&I]

Crewe - Lincoln in BR days had the unenviable reputation of being the slowest journey in the UK (even after Machynlleth to Pwllheli) , Crewe - Derby today is clearly underserved ,if not just in capacity - but in frequency - having see a 153 in most cases replacing a 156 ! , route certainly has potential , if not to Manchester Airport (this was tried in Central Trains days , and the loadings were awful.

Norwich - Crewe sounds like a good option , helping East Anglian connectivity , and with HS2 ......?

If there was any way of getting this across Crewe, the current Liverpool-Norwich could be diverted this way (speeding it up considerably, particularly if Stoke-Derby is improved), a Liverpool-Sheffield-Hull service introduced, and an East Anglia-Yorkshire (Leeds then Bradford ?) service brought in. I may have suggested this before.

 

[SeanM1997]

If there was any way of getting this across Crewe, the current Liverpool-Norwich could be diverted this way (speeding it up considerably, particularly if Stoke-Derby is improved), a Liverpool-Sheffield-Hull service introduced, and an East Anglia-Yorkshire (Leeds then Bradford ?) service brought in. I may have suggested this before.

So, from what are you saying, what would your thoughts be on the following Crewe services:
1ph 4 Carriages: Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, Runcorn, Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter, Derby, Nottingham, Grantham, Peterborough, Ely, Thetford and Norwich
1ph 2 Carriages: Crewe, Alsager, Kidsgrove, Longport, Stoke-on-Trent, Longton, Blythe Bridge, Uttoxeter, Tutbury & Hatton, Peartree (Limited), Derby, Long Eaton, East Midlands HS2, Ilkeston, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Dronfield and Sheffield

 

[B&I]

So, from what are you saying, what would your thoughts be on the following Crewe services:
1ph 4 Carriages: Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, Runcorn, Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Uttoxeter, Derby, Nottingham, Grantham, Peterborough, Ely, Thetford and Norwich
1ph 2 Carriages: Crewe, Alsager, Kidsgrove, Longport, Stoke-on-Trent, Longton, Blythe Bridge, Uttoxeter, Tutbury & Hatton, Peartree (Limited), Derby, Long Eaton, East Midlands HS2, Ilkeston, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Dronfield and Sheffield

I would suggest Lime Street, South Parkway, Runcorn, Crewe, Stoke, Uttoxeter, Derby, Nottingham, Grantham, Peterborough, Ely, Thetford, Norwich. An option may be detaching portions at Crewe for Manchester Airport and Piccadilly, and at Ely for Cambridge and Stanstead. LNWR and / or Northern could take care of local stops around Stoke.

I can't really comment on where to send a Stoke-Derby local east of Derby. Nottingham would seem to be the most obvious destination, but I appreciate you might want to improve connections from Derby towards Sheffield or Leicester. Nottingham-Derby definitely needs a better local service, though. Indeed, I think there's scope for an East Midlands Metro based on services round Nottingham, Derby and Leicester

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If there was any way of getting this across Crewe, the current Liverpool-Norwich could be diverted this way (speeding it up considerably, particularly if Stoke-Derby is improved), a Liverpool-Sheffield-Hull service introduced, and an East Anglia-Yorkshire (Leeds then Bradford ?) service brought in. I may have suggested this before.

Until HS2 sorts everything ...(or helps out) , you might find a path across Crewe North , (note the "might") , but your chances of a path towards Liverpool are very dubious.

 

[B&I]

Until HS2 sorts everything ...(or helps out) , you might find a path across Crewe North , (note the "might") , but your chances of a path towards Liverpool are very dubious.

Ah yes, the line to Weaver Junction, so uncrowded that HS2 doesn't believe it needs bypassed

 

[thenorthern]

Given that the East Midlands Franchise has some of the oldest average age for rolling stock I wonder if the franchise will get some new trains? Pre-2007 I remember that some of East Midlands routes such as Crewe-Derby (Previously which ran through to Skegness), Robin Hood Line, Lincoln Central to Leicester (which ran through to Leicester), Derwent Valley Line and some others used Class 170 trains but these were given to London Midland and CrossCountry in 2007.

Its not just the age of the trains though as East Midlands Trains lack many of the features that passengers on other services would take for granted such as on board information displays, automated annoucements, disabled toilets, tickets that aren't made of paper, ticket machines at unstaffed stations and many other things.

Given though that the East Midlands as a whole receives much less public funding that most parts of the country its not surprising though.

 

[Kneedown]

Given that the East Midlands Franchise has some of the oldest average age for rolling stock I wonder if the franchise will get some new trains? Pre-2007 I remember that some of East Midlands routes such as Crewe-Derby (Previously which ran through to Skegness), Robin Hood Line, Lincoln Central to Leicester (which ran through to Leicester), Derwent Valley Line and some others used Class 170 trains but these were given to London Midland and CrossCountry in 2007.

I stand to be corrected, but once Anglia, Merseyrail, Wales and Borders, West Mid's etc have all their new trains on order, I reckon it'll be THE oldest fleet in the country (Isle of Wight excepted)
170 were indeed used mainly on the Man Airport to Skegness run shortly after introduction by Central Trains. I seem to recall that the reason was that in the event of faults and failures a fitter from Adtranz/Bombardier, could attend to the unit at Derby quite easily.

 

[thenorthern]

I stand to be corrected, but once Anglia, Merseyrail, Wales and Borders, West Mid's etc have all their new trains on order, I reckon it'll be THE oldest fleet in the country (Isle of Wight excepted)
170 were indeed used mainly on the Man Airport to Skegness run shortly after introduction by Central Trains. I seem to recall that the reason was that in the event of faults and failures a fitter from Adtranz/Bombardier, could attend to the unit at Derby quite easily.

When they were introduced the Crewe to Skegness trains used a mixture of Class 153, 156, 158 as well as the Class 170. It was one of the first lines to get the new trains as you say and its a shame now as the line is mostly worked by Class 153 trains which get very overcrowded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They'll have to do something about 153s, as if they are converted to full PRM-TSI spec they have almost no seating capacity. Single car units have had their day other than for strengthening with the toilet removed.

 

[OrangeJuice]

They'll have to do something about 153s, as if they are converted to full PRM-TSI spec they have almost no seating capacity. Single car units have had their day other than for strengthening with the toilet removed.

Could they (153's) strengthen a PRM compliant train and never run on their own or do they have to be PRM compliant as an individual train?

In which case it may be better to reform them into 2 car units

 

[cactustwirly]

Could they (153's) strengthen a PRM compliant train and never run on their own or do they have to be PRM compliant as an individual train?

In which case it may be better to reform them into 2 car units

They still have to be PRM compliant

 

[Robertj21a]

They still have to be PRM compliant

Is that 100% definite ? [not questioning it as such, just wondering]

I would have thought that there could be an allowance if coupled to a PRM compliant unit.

 

[cactustwirly]

Is that 100% definite ? [not questioning it as such, just wondering]

I would have thought that there could be an allowance if coupled to a PRM compliant unit.

You can keep the original toilets I believe, but the rest of the 153 needs to be PRM compliant

 

[Domh245]

You can keep the original toilets I believe, but the rest of the 153 needs to be PRM compliant

Indeed, there is more to PRM-TSI compliance than just toilets. Door sounders, PIS, lighting levels, handrails, safety stickers/posters, etc.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed, there is more to PRM-TSI compliance than just toilets. Door sounders, PIS, lighting levels, handrails, safety stickers/posters, etc.

However the mods apart from the toilet are fairly easy to do and don't have much effect on seating capacity.

 

[pt_mad]

It does.
The branding must be East Midlands Railway.
A subtle change but an important one none the less.
That means it's highly likely the Stagecoach colours will disappear, even if it's them running the service as I can't see using Stagecoach branding colours with a different brand name, but I could be proved wrong.

See it includes the all important word Railway which most generic franchises seem to include these days

 

[pt_mad]

This may be asking a lot.

But is anyone able to possibly post a brief bulleted summary of the minimum requirements of the franchise re routes and minimum frequencies and commitments such as wifi or fully accessible trains by xx, or commitments to bi-mode etc etc? So myself and perhaps other posters can get a flavor of the requirements without trawling through the entire ITT?

Would be great if that were possible.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

That I can see, from the Monday to Friday as an example:

- Hourly service to/from Skegness
- Hourly service to/from Matlock
- Hourly service to/from Crewe
- Hourly service to/from Norwich (but only starting from Nottingham to the east and something of a creative licence for the franchisee to run north if wanted)
- Hourly service to/from Lincoln (from Nottingham) and hourly Newark Castle additional
- Hourly service to Worksop and hourly additional to Woodhouse
- Hourly service between Doncaster and Lincoln, Lincoln and Peterborough (no requirement for through journey)
- Two-hourly service between Newark North Gate and Lincoln (expected to work in tandem with a two-hourly East Coast to make hourly in all)
- Hourly service between Lincoln and Grimsby, not Cleethorpes
- Two-hourly service between Cleethorpes and Barton on Humber
- Half-hourly Corby service
- Half-hourly Sheffield service from London
- Half-hourly Nottingham service from London

 

[pt_mad]

That I can see, from the Monday to Friday as an example:

- Hourly service to/from Skegness
- Hourly service to/from Matlock
- Hourly service to/from Crewe
- Hourly service to/from Norwich (but only starting from Nottingham to the east and something of a creative licence for the franchisee to run north if wanted)
- Hourly service to/from Lincoln (from Nottingham) and hourly Newark Castle additional
- Hourly service to Worksop and hourly additional to Woodhouse
- Hourly service between Doncaster and Lincoln, Lincoln and Peterborough (no requirement for through journey)
- Two-hourly service between Newark North Gate and Lincoln (expected to work in tandem with a two-hourly East Coast to make hourly in all)
- Hourly service between Lincoln and Grimsby, not Cleethorpes
- Two-hourly service between Cleethorpes and Barton on Humber
- Half-hourly Corby service
- Half-hourly Sheffield service from London
- Half-hourly Nottingham service from London

So not hugely different from today then with the biggest exception of the half hourly Corby??

 

[4-SUB 4732]

So not hugely different from today then with the biggest exception of the half hourly Corby??

Well that I can gather it's a massive uplift for the Doncaster - Lincoln - Peterborough, and also a huge uplift in Lincoln - Barnetby - Grimsby. There's also the matter of much later last trains and earlier first trains; and a fair hit of uplift on Saturdays and Sundays.

 

[cactustwirly]

That I can see, from the Monday to Friday as an example:

- Hourly service to/from Skegness
- Hourly service to/from Matlock
- Hourly service to/from Crewe
- Hourly service to/from Norwich (but only starting from Nottingham to the east and something of a creative licence for the franchisee to run north if wanted)
- Hourly service to/from Lincoln (from Nottingham) and hourly Newark Castle additional
- Hourly service to Worksop and hourly additional to Woodhouse
- Hourly service between Doncaster and Lincoln, Lincoln and Peterborough (no requirement for through journey)
- Two-hourly service between Newark North Gate and Lincoln (expected to work in tandem with a two-hourly East Coast to make hourly in all)
- Hourly service between Lincoln and Grimsby, not Cleethorpes
- Two-hourly service between Cleethorpes and Barton on Humber
- Half-hourly Corby service
- Half-hourly Sheffield service from London
- Half-hourly Nottingham service from London

Almost the service today except Lincoln - Grimsby and Lincoln - Doncaster.

 

[pt_mad]

Almost the service today except Lincoln - Grimsby and Lincoln - Doncaster.

Is Corby currently half hourly or hourly?

And does it make specifications such as 'half hourly EMU service to Corby on completion of electrification'?