Buying a Y/P ticket for someone else

[yorkie]

If it is fraud prevention to deny railcard discounts without seeing it, then the ticket machines are assisting it by that logic?!

This is only an issue because machines do not issue Rovers/Rangers (except in rare cases) and don't accept RTVs. Once machines do all these things, obstructive staff (which are the minority I find) can be by-passed 100% of the time.

I'm fortunate that my local station both has machines and helpful staff who will supply whatever you ask for and don't try to act as ticket inspectors. They comply with impartial retailing and sell Rovers, Rangers etc without being obstructive and always being polite. All ticket offices should be like that.

 

[glynn80]

If it is fraud prevention to deny railcard discounts without seeing it, then the ticket machines are assisting it by that logic?!

Not in the real world it isn't.

I fail to make the connection you make. I have explained that just because the system is not 100% foolproof, does not mean that TOCs should abandon fraud prevention altogether (which is the logic ikorodu seems to be banding about).

 

[ikorodu]

This view is frankly ridiculous. You cannot say that because a TOC has chosen not to implement onboard checks, they open themselves up to this kind of fraud and therefore all fraud prevention should be abandoned.

I think that because a TOC do not have onboard checks then they do open themselves up for this kind of fraud (i.e. make it easier for this type of fraud to be committed on their seviced without being detected), yes, they are bound to think that this is the case too. Not that I condone any type of fraud at all. I think unless you check the ticket and (if applicable) rail card on the journey you are left with other less effective methods of inspection eg barriers.

I do not think that 'all fraud prevention should be abandoned'. I am at a loss to see how you have reached this conclusion from the post I made.

 

[EltonRoad]

My view is this: the ticket office is quite right to insist on seeing the railcard before selling the discounted ticket. Yes, I know there are ways and means of getting a discounted ticket without having a railcard, but as glynn says, it's one extra check in place that may prevent a few frauds.

Neither should they sell child tickets without seeing the child. If an over-15 used a child ticket that had been bought for them, the guard may assume checks had already been done.

Again - it's just one extra bit of security. You can hardly blame the TOCs for doing it.

 

[ikorodu]

...
Neither should they sell child tickets without seeing the child. If an over-15 used a child ticket that had been bought for them, the guard may assume checks had already been done.

Again - it's just one extra bit of security. You can hardly blame the TOCs for doing it.

Now that is (to coin a phrase) frankly ridiculous.

Consider this; I arrive at the station with my wife and three kids, I go to ticket office to get tickets while wifey takes kids to WH Smiths to get comics for them to read on the train. I get told 'Sorry Sir, you need to go and get your three kids to stand infront of me while I check they are real.' Not really an enforcable one that, I think.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The bottom line is railcard condition 5, you must show your railcard when purchasing a discounted ticket. Computer monitors and ticket machines aren't very good at reading in my experience though!

There is no real system for checking who is actually travelling when the tickets are purchased be it for kids or Y-Ps, until the guard/conductor comes round, then it is upto them, but that doesn't mean we should abandon earlier checks altogether.

When an adult is only buying a child ticket, all I can do is ask if the person is also travelling and if they have their ticket, there isn't much else I can do, I could ask for proof of age for the child if I believe the person travelling may not be under 16, but I doubt many really would if the child isn't actually there and it isn't really proof that the child is travelling not the adult buying it.

I actually got a rollocking for not checking a railcard once. A regular passenger with a brand spanking new railcard as it happens, she left it in her other jacket and I didn't ask to see it (I knew she had one), the conductor asked to see the railcard and when she couldn't show it she was sold a new ticket. The conductor made it known I hadn't seen it when I sold the ticket. The next day she had her railcard on her, but told me that was the first time in three years she'd been asked to show it on the train. Since that day I have always asked to see passes and railcards.

 

[yorkie]

... so now people buying for groups have to use the machines and internet instead. Then, one day, Northern considered a cut back on staff...

To be continued...

 

[tony_mac]

Computer monitors and ticket machines aren't very good at reading in my experience though!

It wouldn't be at all difficult to do. Give a validation code for ordering online and a magnetic stripe on the railcard for the machines. But, these things take time - particularly in the railway industry, it seems!

I think the approach is perfectly reasonable, as such, but it's so easy for the fraudster to avoid it now that it does seem a bit pointless to inconvenience the genuine traveller.

I don't know why railcards aren't checked more often, though. It wouldn't be much work if they were always checked - then people would know and have them ready.

 

[EltonRoad]

Now that is (to coin a phrase) frankly ridiculous.

Consider this; I arrive at the station with my wife and three kids, I go to ticket office to get tickets while wifey takes kids to WH Smiths to get comics for them to read on the train. I get told 'Sorry Sir, you need to go and get your three kids to stand infront of me while I check they are real.' Not really an enforcable one that, I think.

Fair enough.

I have worked in a ticket office as a summer holiday job. I've seen the sort of tricks some people play ...

 

[Solent&Wessex]

This is copied and pasted directly from the "Newsrail Express" section of the NFM:

Buying tickets in advance with a Railcard

Railcard holders may buy tickets in advance, even when the date of travel is beyond the expiry date of their Railcard. The customer should have a valid Railcard at the time of buying their tickets and should be told to renew their Railcard in time for their journey and have it with them when they travel.

Railcards can be renewed up to one month in advance.

Item submitted by ATOC Marketing

 

[blacknight]

If it is fraud prevention to deny railcard discounts without seeing it, then the ticket machines are assisting it by that logic?!

By that logic same applies to automated gatelines which also fail to demand any railcards unlike a manned barrier.
Just because you can buy railcard dicounted tickets online & at TVM's without being asked for railcard don't mean its right just they have not worked out how to do it yet.
Bit like self checkout in stores puts faith in you to be honest. Likewise if its a term & condition for sale to proceed don't blame booking hall clerk for doing their job correctly in asking for railcard, who you be critical of checkout assistant for not giving points without storecard being produced.
By same rule reverse could happen person with railcard could buy tickets from ticket office & hand it over to mate who ain't got one.
Thats reason you are often asked on more than once to produce railcard again if ticket checks are carried out on board or at a manned ticket barrier.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One thing to note, you can't buy a child ticket on it's own from a fast-ticket machine. This means that if you are under 16 and the booking office is closed, you have no choice but to buy on the train. But would some TOCs (eg. NXEC) buy this?

Seem to think software been upgraded & you can now buy just a childs ticket at TVM. Will check it out next time I'm killing time at station, logic was that under 16 don't have an acceptable credit/debitcard for TVM but bank of mum & dad do hence the change

 

[hairyhandedfool]

... so now people buying for groups have to use the machines and internet instead. Then, one day, Northern considered a cut back on staff...

To be continued...

I have very few people moan about having to produce the railcard when buying for someone else, infact some ask if I need to see it before asking for the tickets.

Only one passenger has stopped trying to purchase tickets from the office for a similar reason, but in his case, on multiple occasions, he was unable to produce his own railcard!

 

[yorkie]

So people go and get the railcards for other members of their group when buying group tickets? As you are basically admitting to doing a job of revenue protection, how can you know that the same person who owns the railcard will use the ticket?

 

[Greenback]

So people go and get the railcards for other members of their group when buying group tickets? As you are basically admitting to doing a job of revenue protection, how can you know that the same person who owns the railcard will use the ticket?

The sales advisor could escort the customer to the train!!!

As to hairyhandedfools rollocking, what if the traveller had got someone else with a railcard to buy the ticket for them? What if they had lost the railcard between the ticket office and the train? In my ticket office days I wouldn't have accepted a telling off in those circumstances!

I'm not having a go at staff who won't sell tickets if that is the instruction, but many on here (including me) think that the instruction is daft and pointless! This is particularly the case where someone is buying tickets for travel in a few days time, or for a group as Yorkie says.

 

[yorkie]

This is particularly the case where someone is buying tickets for travel in a few days time, or for a group as Yorkie says.

Absolutely, and it's something I've done on many occasions.

I've probably bought nearly as many tickets for other people as I have for myself!

What would happen if I asked to buy a ticket with a senior railcard? it would be obvious it wasn't for me, would I be asked to produce it? If so, what purpose does that serve, and what does it prove?

 

[Crossover]

I tend to show my railcard all the time - there have been occasions I've forgotten to remove my ticket and just not had chance to show the railcard (which I usually keep behind the ticket I'm travelling on) and have been asked to show the railcard - at ticket checks on trains/platform - so they are pretty switched on to it.

I have bought from ticket offices before now and tend to have it to show them - some want to see it and others couldn't care less to be honest. Although I can't admit to being a regular patron to ticket offices as I usually use the FastTrack machines instead - plus you do get some grumpy sales assistants - seemingly especially when you know what you want, (you could buy it online (advance tickets) but for one reason or another its easier to make a visit to the station.)

Similar happens with bus passes and you get similarly picky bus drivers - some don't care, some will charge you full without it and others can be really picky as happened with a family member once where there was a sticker of some sort on the holder and insisted on peeling it off before he would accept the pass. Similarly some won't accept if you hairstyle has dramatically changed either in some (probably more extreme) circumstances.

 

[monkey]

...I found most on train guards don't give a toss about my railcard - sometimes I go to get it and they just say "no its ok" or "its fine" and walk off... never tried buying one without though at a station, atlhough I havn't bought a ticket at a station face to face with a human for some years...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So people go and get the railcards for other members of their group when buying group tickets? As you are basically admitting to doing a job of revenue protection, how can you know that the same person who owns the railcard will use the ticket?

The railcard leaflet states the railcard must be shown when buying tickets, not my rule, not the company's rule. Unless Revenue protection work in a ticket office (they used to at Tooting IIRC) it's not their job to check if a passenger has a railcard at the time they purchase the ticket. So no, I'm not admitting to doing revenue protection's job because I'm not doing it, I'm doing my job.

I can't prove they are the ones using the ticket, that's not my job, it's revenue protection's. My job is to make sure the railcard actually exists and that it is valid at the time of travel.

 

[Greenback]

As I said earlier, I'm not having a go at staff who will not sell railcard tickets without the railcard, because that seems to be the instruction (from ATOC?). However, I question the necessity of the rule as it seems to be illogical and unnecessary, as illustrated by the following two scenarios:

Mr Fardeodger goes to the ticket office and asks for a Y-P SDS to Anytown. He hasn't got a railcard, so the clerk refuses to sell the ticket. MR Faredodger pops around the corner and buys his Y-P SDS from the ticket machine.

Mr Innocent has a Friends and Family card, which his partner is currently in possession. Mr Innocent, passing the station on his way home, decides to go in and buy some tickets for a family day out in a weeks time. He hasn't got the railcard so he is refused, and the clerk explains this is because he might not have a railcard at all if he can't produce it. Although the sales advisor has been polite, Mr Innocent goes home feeling upset with the railway because he has wasted his time trying to buy a ticket and has been made to feel like a criminal. In his frustration he decides to cut up the card and use the family car instead.

The rule has had no effect in scenario one, but has not only cost the railway goodwill but also cost itrevenue in scenario two.

Scenario two actually happened to my brother when he was passing through Paddington on his way home from a work posting. He doesn;t live close to a station and thought he'd buy some tickets while waiting for the enxt train. He didn't cut up the card in the end but he was very annoyed as he then had to phone up telesales at his own expense, and they didn;t care about whether he had the railcard or not, just told him to make sure he took it with him on the train! Like the OP, he couldn;t see the sense in it, and either can I!

 

[yorkie]

exactly. only the rail industry is so obstructive toward genuine customers.

 

[glynn80]

exactly. only the rail industry is so obstructive toward genuine customers.

Ah yeh because the airline industry is so helpful.

Next time your at the airport check in desk arguing over whether you should have to pay Online Check-In Fees, Payment Handling Fees, Priority Boarding Fees, Airport Boarding Card Re-issue Fees, Infant Fees, Checked Baggage Fees, 1st Bag Fees, 2nd & 3rd Bag Fees, Excess Baggage Fees, Infant Equipment Fees, Sports Equipment Fees, Musical Instrument Fees, Flight Change Fees and Name Change Fees, perhaps you'll rethink your opinion.

 

[Greenback]

The fact that the budget airlines do not offer great customer service is not something that the railway industry should try to emulate!!!

 

[glynn80]

The fact that the budget airlines do not offer great customer service is not something that the railway industry should try to emulate!!!

Nodoby's saying they they should, only that the rail industry is not unique in its approach to seemingly illogical rules and regulations.

 

[Greenback]

I'm glad you agree that the rule seems illogical

As I no longer work in the industyr, have you any idea how to go about petitioning for change?

 

[Ticket Man]

The main reason for the rule is to stop fraud, now people can bang on about good will from the railways and how the railway is taking part in some conspiricy to obstruct genuine customers but any one with their head screwed on tight would realise that that is a load of twoddle.
This rule exists because if it didn't, Every tom dick n harry would be buying railcard discounts to which they are not entitled to. Futher more, if they were caught using the railcard ticket, they would complain about being able to buy a railcard discounted ticket from the ticket office and how this is some secret ploy to issue more penalty fares!!!!

 

[tony_mac]

This rule exists because if it didn't, Every tom dick n harry would be buying railcard discounts to which they are not entitled to.

The rule existed for that reason, I think that it still exists because there is little point removing it.
Is 'Every tom dick n harry' now buying railcard discounts to which they are not entitled to from the machines, internet or telesales instead?
If not, then the rule is unnecessary.
If so, then the rule is useless!

 

[glynn80]

I'm glad you agree that the rule seems illogical

I only said it seemed illogical, not that it actually was

 

[Greenback]

The main reason for the rule is to stop fraud, now people can bang on about good will from the railways and how the railway is taking part in some conspiricy to obstruct genuine customers but any one with their head screwed on tight would realise that that is a load of twoddle.
This rule exists because if it didn't, Every tom dick n harry would be buying railcard discounts to which they are not entitled to. Futher more, if they were caught using the railcard ticket, they would complain about being able to buy a railcard discounted ticket from the ticket office and how this is some secret ploy to issue more penalty fares!!!!

I can indeed bang on about goodwill, but only in the sense that people with goodwill towards the railways may lose that, as in my brothers case! Nor did I say that there is a conspiracy, and I'm not aware of anyone saying that the railways deliberately set out to antagonise or annoy genuine customers.

Just to clarify so that there is no misunderstanding, what I am trying to point is the effect that this rule has on some people in particular circumstances. I, and others, are also questioning whether the rule actually has any point since tickets can be bought by phone, at machines and over the internet without havign to show a railcard. As discussed above, it seems illogical. I would go futher and say that it IS illogical!

The railway is quite heavily subsidised, and needs goodwill from members of the public who are not railway enthusiasts, and just want to use whatever services are provided by the TOC's.

Picking up form tony_mac, it may be that the T&C's have been left untouched since the what was then the Student Railcard was first introduced way back in the mists of time. It may have been overlooked, or they may be felt no need to update the rules, its only by highlighting what appears to be an illogical regulation, and the issues that it has caused, as with the OP and my brother, for example, can we hope to seek some sort of amendment or withdrawl of the rule.

 

[tony_mac]

I think it's more likely they will change things so that you always need a railcard to buy the tickets, however you buy them.

While that wouldn't make life any easier, it would fix the inconsistency.

I have said before - I don't understand why railcards aren't checked more frequently; that would surely help a great deal more towards dealing with the 'fraud' aspect than the current system of usually only checking when you buy from a manned ticket office.

I wonder if they could endorse the ticket 'railcard not present' or something, that way the guard would know specifically to check it , and the barriers could automatically refuse them.
Of course, they could do this anyway, regardless of that - but they don't.

I would appreciate that, then I could show my railcard when buying a ticket and actually know that I will be able to get through the barriers at the other end, instead of having to try it and have it rejected half the time.

But, I realise that implementing even minor changes would probably take a very long time!

 

[Greenback]

I think you're probably right! The thing that annoyed my brother most was that he knew he could buy tickets for future travel online or on the phone, and assumed that he could do so at the ticket office in Padd. I think it would be very sensible to have more railcard checks, though when I travel it's not unusual hear the conductor asking for the railcard. I have to assume that if they don't ask for it, the passenger has shown it with the ticket! In the dim and distant days when I was a student, I always showed my railcard and ticket together and I think that if anyone shows just a Y-P emblazoned ticket it should alert the meber of staff that there is an increased chance that the person hasn't got a card on them (or hasn't got a card at all!). Of course, until they implement measures to chekc railcards by phone, on the web and at machines, the rule iss till illogical and pointless!