Transpennine Express decide not to use MK3's on limited services

[gimmea50anyday]

It is also disappointing that management won't listen to or act on the good advice the front line staff have been giving them.

We have been leasing these mk3s for over 2 years and they have spent a significant amount of that time sat in sidings doing nothing. A training and competence manager spent a 6 month secondment rewriting the training manuals for these trains saving the company £1/4 mill and how did top brass thank him? Ditched his competency management role and made him redundant!

 

[mde]

While it wasn't a good solution it didn't breach PRM legislation or require Chris Grayling to issue an exemption order - TPE planned to get the mk3s replaced by mk5s before the PRM deadline. It will be ironic if a 185 now turns up so full that a wheelchair passenger has to remain on the platform until the next service arrives.

It just isn't a good solution, sorry. As has been identified elsewhere in the thread by more learned posters, the solution provided by TPE worked around the basis of a taxi. That's great if you can find one. Look at the Lakes line bus farce - a person with mobility issues is very much stuck there as there are no taxis readily available. The rail contracts are very rarely with local firms, so, a taxi has to be brought from a distance and causes considerable delay (even if pre-booked).

The solution would have been workable had TPE put the spare coaches in the rakes and spent a little bit of money ensuring the (alleged) ramp issues were resolved. It's just basic common sense, which is sometimes sorely lacking.

 

[northwichcat]

It just isn't a good solution, sorry. As has been identified elsewhere in the thread by more learned posters, the solution provided by TPE worked around the basis of a taxi. That's great if you can find one. Look at the Lakes line bus farce - a person with mobility issues is very much stuck there as there are no taxis readily available. The rail contracts are very rarely with local firms, so, a taxi has to be brought from a distance and causes considerable delay (even if pre-booked).

The solution would have been workable had TPE put the spare coaches in the rakes and spent a little bit of money ensuring the (alleged) ramp issues were resolved. It's just basic common sense, which is sometimes sorely lacking.

Yet we have platforms inaccessible to wheelchair users around the country, meaning they have to be taxied or even over-travel and then get a train back in the opposite direction. However, everyone makes a fuss over a temporary problem which will go away in a few months and ignores the fact the inaccessible platforms aren't covered by the 2019 PRM deadline which covers trains not stations. If people made the same level of fuss about inaccessible platforms that they made about the mk3s, maybe things will be better for disabled people long term.

 

[mde]

Yet we have platforms inaccessible to wheelchair users around the country, meaning they have to be taxied or even over-travel and then get a train back in the opposite direction. However, everyone makes a fuss over a temporary problem which will go away in a few months and ignores the fact the inaccessible platforms aren't covered by the 2019 PRM deadline which covers trains not stations.

Not quite the issue at hand however - the one of the ramps is (alleged) to be toward safety, but, could have been remedied.

What you might deem to be "making a fuss" is a regrettable necessity for those with disabilities, otherwise there is a predictable reaction - needs are simply ignored. This is something which the current occupants of Great Minster House (DfT) and Westminster are very good at doing, hence why people have spoken up.

It's sad that TPE have deemed that they cannot provide a better solution, but, at the end of the day, it was within their gift to do so if they wanted to - and - it's not like these coaches haven't been sitting for some time, any relevant 'fixes' could have been implemented.

 

[northwichcat]

What you might deem to be "making a fuss" is a regrettable necessity for those with disabilities, otherwise there is a predictable reaction - needs are simply ignored. This is something which the current occupants of Great Minster House (DfT) and Westminster are very good at doing, hence why people have spoken up.

The media has been reporting about 1970s trains being brought out of sidings which are so old that wheelchairs can't be loaded on them, as though the only viable solution was to order new rolling stock earlier.

 

[AndrewE]

It has been announced internally TPE will NOT be using Mk3 coaching stock in passenger service.

Instead they will be used exclusively for driver training ahead of Mk5 introduction in the autumn

So what penalty will the TOC pay for not introducing a capacity increase that was a franchise commitment? One token return service to Manchester Airport last winter isn't doing anything to make life easier for people travelling across the Pennines is it?

 

[221129]

So what penalty will the TOC pay for not introducing a capacity increase that was a franchise commitment? One token return service to Manchester Airport last winter isn't doing anything to make life easier for people travelling across the Pennines is it?

There is unlikely to be a penalty at all.

 

[mde]

The media has been reporting about 1970s trains being brought out of sidings which are so old that wheelchairs can't be loaded on them, as though the only viable solution was to order new rolling stock earlier.

Well theoretically they aren't necessarily wrong about the age of the carriages, albeit, it's of very little significance (other than to sensationalise the story) - the fittings must be what, mid 90s? That's the real issue, not the age of the carriages.

There could have been relevant modifications made to make them usable 'as is' - not PRM or RVAR, just the absolute bare minimum for a stop gap. But, no, seemingly that was too much. This is the real issue for folks - the company had adequate time, but, failed to do anything.

 

[geoffk]

Yet we have platforms inaccessible to wheelchair users around the country, meaning they have to be taxied or even over-travel and then get a train back in the opposite direction. However, everyone makes a fuss over a temporary problem which will go away in a few months and ignores the fact the inaccessible platforms aren't covered by the 2019 PRM deadline which covers trains not stations. If people made the same level of fuss about inaccessible platforms that they made about the mk3s, maybe things will be better for disabled people long term.

And some of these inaccessible platforms are now served by TPE - Marsden for example, and one platform at Mossley, Greenfield and others. Perhaps the next step should be for TPE to reclaim the two 185s being used by Northern, as soon as the next pair of 158s arrives from Scotrail.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry you have been inconvenienced, but, end of the day, a better solution should have been put in place by the operator. The fault lies with TPE and DfT, not the disabled (or otherwise PRM) persons.

Yet we have platforms inaccessible to wheelchair users around the country, meaning they have to be taxied or even over-travel and then get a train back in the opposite direction. However, everyone makes a fuss over a temporary problem which will go away in a few months and ignores the fact the inaccessible platforms aren't covered by the 2019 PRM deadline which covers trains not stations. If people made the same level of fuss about inaccessible platforms that they made about the mk3s, maybe things will be better for disabled people long term.

However i believe every platform on the scarborough line is accessible? Therefore it would be a reduction and that presents more problems. Of course if they used them on liverpool to newcastle the problem would be somewhat less!

 

[BeHereNow]

Yet another aspect of an impossible bid, delivered by incompetent management.

 

[221129]

Yet another aspect of an impossible bid, delivered by incompetent management.

Or not...

 

[BeHereNow]

Hahahaha...too right.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

DfT have signed it off, TPE wont be penalised for not using them. Its a pity for those who have put in the work behind the scenes in getting them ready to then find their efforts gone to waste but I am confident someone knows what they are doing and can see sense in the decisions that have been made

 

[BeHereNow]

Can you confirm, in this situation, who knows what they are doing?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The decision makers and shakers of course!

XD

 

[nedchester]

But it's just another decision made by people frightened of their own shadow.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm not so sure that is true. Apparently TPE tried to wriggle out of introducing them earlier but were told to keep to their franchise commitment. It could well be that this has just come as a rather fortunate excuse for doing what they already wanted to do.

 

[BeHereNow]

I suppose the coaches didn't have the right colour paint on!

 

[xotGD]

So that run from Piccadilly to the Airport just before New Year turns out to have not only been the first but also the last.

What a total farce.

Can we now expect to see the headline 'Trains run around empty while passengers suffer'?

 

[Mojo]

It seems yet again another massive own goal for the railways. They could have allowed Wheelchair users onboard but just accept that the facilities are not up to scratch (as is the case on other trains with no Wheelchair space/before Wheelchair spaces were invented), allowing customers to travel on a later train if they request to do so. As it is, the railways have now suffered from poor PR from running around trains whereby Wheelchairs are banned, and will now suffer for the increased crowding on the existing services.

 

[yorksrob]

What a surprise.

Welcome to the crappy 21'st century.

All passengers on TPE will be worse off because of this tripe.

 

[BeHereNow]

It is also disappointing that management won't listen to or act on the good advice the front line staff have been giving them.

We have been leasing these mk3s for over 2 years and they have spent a significant amount of that time sat in sidings doing nothing. A training and competence manager spent a 6 month secondment rewriting the training manuals for these trains saving the company £1/4 mill and how did top brass thank him? Ditched his competency management role and made him redundant!

This sounds awful. That's no way to run a business or treat an employee.

PPM has been, on average, the worst in the country for the last 3 weeks. They have the lowest passenger satisfaction in their history. And they are in an onerous contract.

 

[158756]

What a surprise.

Welcome to the crappy 21'st century.

All passengers on TPE will be worse off because of this tripe.

Public opinion, and soon the law, is clear, discrimination is not OK. Using trains from the 70s was never going to play well, but that they've made no effort to refurbish them despite having them leased, sitting in sidings, for so long was just asking for trouble.

Maybe (unlikely, but one can dream) in the long term we'll all be better off if operators and the DfT realise they can't cut corners to provide an unacceptable standard of service.

 

[47802]

Public opinion, and soon the law, is clear, discrimination is not OK. Using trains from the 70s was never going to play well, but that they've made no effort to refurbish them despite having them leased, sitting in sidings, for so long was just asking for trouble.

Maybe (unlikely, but one can dream) in the long term we'll all be better off if operators and the DfT realise they can't cut corners to provide an unacceptable standard of service.

Yes but its not the law yet, and these trains were only intended to be used for a short period so it certainly wasn't worth spending much money on them.

 

[yorksrob]

Public opinion, and soon the law, is clear, discrimination is not OK. Using trains from the 70s was never going to play well, but that they've made no effort to refurbish them despite having them leased, sitting in sidings, for so long was just asking for trouble.

Maybe (unlikely, but one can dream) in the long term we'll all be better off if operators and the DfT realise they can't cut corners to provide an unacceptable standard of service.

Yes, we can all be equal on our crummy modern trains with ironing board seats and vacuum toilets which have locked themselves out of use so we're all crapping ourselves anyway. Whoopee.

They're right though.

It wouldn't have taken the earth to remodel a bit of the carriage as a wheelchair space.

Endless time spent in the sidings doing nothing.

 

[BMIFlyer]

So (if the rumour is to be believed) thanks to a crank who happens to be a wheelchair user (who's initial complaint was that he couldn't get any haulage on the Mk3 sets and started this silly campaign) everyone else now has to suffer chronic overcrowding until late Autumn.

Some great work there. Back to dealing with angry commuters again for the rest of us.

 

[Bovverboy]

Has the title of this thread been changed? I can't find any notification to that effect.

 

[mde]

Has the title of this thread been changed? I can't find any notification to that effect.

Seems to have been - the official notification is on an updated version of their Mk3 statement - copied below for convenience:

MARK 3 STATEMENT
Friday 8th June 2018

TransPennine Express will no longer be introducing Mark 3 trains into passenger service

Following recent discussions with the Department for Transport and Rail North Partnership, TransPennine Express can confirm that it will not introduce any Mk 3 trains into passenger service.

The two additional trains were originally planned to be brought in on a temporary basis later this year to carry customers on the route between: Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Scarborough, but will now instead be used exclusively to support our driver training programme for our new trains introduction.

The first of TransPennine Express’s brand new Nova trains are on track to begin serving these communities from autumn 2018.

 

[Bantamzen]

Sorry you have been inconvenienced, but, end of the day, a better solution should have been put in place by the operator. The fault lies with TPE and DfT, not the disabled (or otherwise PRM) persons.

I'm sure the thousands of people who are shoehorned onto overcrowded trains will fully understand that because of a lack of PRM compliant facilities, and the unwillingness of some persons with accessibility problems to accept being offered taxi alternatives, they will have to continue being stuffed into the overcrowded trains for many months more.

Perhaps someone should let them all know so that they can all agree its for the best?