Transpennine Express decide not to use MK3's on limited services

[ainsworth74]

The policy is a taxi will be provided after the wheelchair user has seen two inaccessible trains depart.

Have I missed another briefing? The staff briefing previously linked says next train between Liverpool and York and taxi for anyone between York and Scarborough?

 

[mpthomson]

Thanks.

I don't speak for TPE so within reason I can say what I wish. But I appreciate the input. I'm not being offensive - I usually just prefer to say things 'as they are'.

I suspect some people are getting offended on someone else's behalf and most of the wheelchair users (a significant number) I know would find that comment unintentionally funny, not offensive. It's clear you weren't being derogatory or insulting.

From how they've posted they're not wheelchair users themselves, so no need to apologise.

 

[Mojo]

Have I missed another briefing? The staff briefing previously linked says next train between Liverpool and York and taxi for anyone between York and Scarborough?

I believe this is what was stated in the Grauniad.

 

[kingqueen]

Have I missed another briefing? The staff briefing previously linked says next train between Liverpool and York and taxi for anyone between York and Scarborough?

The briefing said wheelchair users have to wait for the next train, unless the next train is also inaccessible, in which case a taxi should be arranged; and commented that it will only be the case that two constructive trains are inaccessible, on the portion of the route between York and Scarborough. On that section of the route, if the next train is accessible, wheelchair users are expected to wait for it and don't get a taxi on that section either.

 

[Starmill]

Have I missed another briefing?

It seems there is something of a lack of facts on this matter. Some insist that there is a policy to make people wait, some that the policy is to make people wait except between York & Scarborough and some insist that there is no policy to make people wait.

 

[kingqueen]

It seems there is something of a lack of facts on this matter. Some insist that there is a policy to make people wait, some that the policy is to make people wait except between York & Scarborough and some insist that there is no policy to make people wait.

No, it's pretty clear, the staff briefing I quoted and TransPennine's statements to the media yesterday are straightforward.
If a wheelchair user wishes to travel one of the trains that is inaccessible, they will be told to wait for the next one, unless the next one is also inaccessible in which case TransPennine will get them an accessible taxi. Two consecutive inaccessible trains will only occur on the York to Scarborough route, so that will be the only section where a taxi is sometimes rewired.

 

[Starmill]

If a wheelchair user wishes to travel one of the trains that is inaccessible, they will be told to wait for the next one

Right. OK, so, bearing in mind the exception you have noted, this post:

The policy is that a taxi will be provided.

Is just false?

 

[kingqueen]

Right. OK, so, bearing in mind the exception you have noted, this post:

The policy is that a taxi will be provided.

Is just false?

I wouldn't put it quite like that; I think it's just an over-simplification of the taxi provision policy.

Cheers

 

[jopsuk]

It's what wheelchair users (on Twitter) have been reporting they've been told.

it could well be that not all staff have read the briefing properly and have passed on the wrong information.

 

[Spartacus]

Sounds like to me that the only real section you're likely to be provided a taxi for is between York and Scarborough, and then only if you're waiting for the first Mk3 set, if you're waiting for the second you'll have to wait for the next 185.

 

[kingqueen]

It's what wheelchair users (on Twitter) have been reporting they've been told.

it could well be that not all staff have read the briefing properly and have passed on the wrong information.

That's interesting and disturbing, thanks for telling me that. If you wouldn't mind, could you please link me to it? Twitter username @kingqueen3065.

I'm asking not because I'm questioning what you say (I'm not at all) but because I'm concerned and interested in the situation.

Thank you, and No problems if not.

 

[noddingdonkey]

TPE could have saved a lot of hassle by getting these sets into service from the timetable change and diagramming them in such a way that they could be legitimately claimed to be "extras" over and above the previous timetable.

If it had been spun as "we're adding an extra train per hour, in the short term it won't be wheelchair accessible, but the existing 5 per hour are still 185s and are still fully accessible" it may not have been the PR disaster that this has turned out to be.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's just an over-simplification of the taxi provision policy.

From what you are saying it sounds like the policy is actually that there is no taxi available in the vast majority of cases? Quite the simplification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me they should offer a choice of a taxi at the departure time of the train or waiting for the next train at the wheelchair user's preference.

 

[Spartacus]

TPE could have saved a lot of hassle by getting these sets into service from the timetable change and diagramming them in such a way that they could be legitimately claimed to be "extras" over and above the previous timetable.

If it had been spun as "we're adding an extra train per hour, in the short term it won't be wheelchair accessible, but the existing 5 per hour are still 185s and are still fully accessible" it may not have been the PR disaster that this has turned out to be.

I wouldn't have thought there was space in the current timetable, however I think the original plan was for them to be introduced during the last timetable in that manner.

 

[scarby]

TPE Express say they are "planning" to introduce the services in July:

https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/media-centre/mark-3-disability-statement

From July 2018, we are planning to operate two extra trains, each with four carriages on the route between Liverpool, Manchester Victoria, Leeds and Scarborough. These trains are being used in passenger service on a limited and temporary basis to provide extra seats for customers and to support driver training ahead of the introduction of the first of our brand new Nova trains later this year

 

[BeHereNow]

Who knows what will happen. Crowding is awful at the moment but you clearly wouldn't want to exclude wheelchair users.

 

[Tetchytyke]

From what you are saying it sounds like the policy is actually that there is no taxi available in the vast majority of cases? Quite the simplification.

TPE clearly have no intention of providing taxis. And in many cases you wouldn't want a taxi anyway. Sitting for hours in a taxi on the A64 car park north of York isn't my idea of fun.

Every other operator of MkIII carriages has updated them for wheelchairs. These carriages have been parked up for nearly a year "preparing for service". Just what have TPE been up to?

Typical privatised Britain. Why do something properly when you can cut corners and give the cash to the shareholders instead?

 

[ainsworth74]

Every other operator of MkIII carriages has updated them for wheelchairs.

Have they? VTEC's certainly aren't fully compliant. There's a chart on the floor showing the size of wheelchairs that can be accommodated on their trains and the Mk3 is much more restricted than the Mk4.

 

[dilbertphil]

One rake of MK3's is supposed to be coming into service at the end of July, there are only a handful of drivers trained at present, all other training has been stopped due to the current problems. There are not enough drivers to cover the proposed work so I would be very surprised if these MK3's are used for anything other than training.

 

[kingqueen]

Have they? VTEC's certainly aren't fully compliant. There's a chart on the floor showing the size of wheelchairs that can be accommodated on their trains and the Mk3 is much more restricted than the Mk4.

VTEC's Mark 3 set have one complaint space and toilet and one that isn't.
For all but two of their sets, their standard class wheelchair space is compliant and with an accessible toilet but their first class wheelchair space is unusable because the doorway to it is 55cm wide and there's no 1st Class accessible toilet.
Two sets have the other way round: fully compliant wheelchair space in 1st Class, with accessible toilet, but non-compliant wheelchair space in standard without any accessible toilet.
So all their trains have at least one compliant space and toilet on them.
Whether the toilet is working is another matter. For example, set EC64 the toilet has been locked out of use due to a broken door piston, for well over a month now. There is no working accessible toilet on that set.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who knows what will happen. Crowding is awful at the moment but you clearly wouldn't want to exclude wheelchair users.

A full and standing single Class 185 already has that effect, long before you can't cram another able bodied person on.

 

[kingqueen]

A full and standing single Class 185 already has that effect, long before you can't cram another able bodied person on.

That's true, however despite having done a very lot of TransPennine journeys in my wheelchair (I live near Leeds/York and my family are in Greater Manchester) I have never had the situation where it has been too crammed to get me on. It's been pretty packed and unpleasantly claustrophobic on occasion, but I have always been able to get on and travel.

So whilst there are doubtless situations where the train is too packed to fit a wheelchair user on, I do not believe that this will be the case for all 12 trains a day, and not for all sections of all 12 trains. So overcrowding wouldn't prevent those trains being used by wheelchair users now, for at least some of them - but running inaccessible trains guarantees those trains can't be used by wheelchair users.

As a side-musing: It's an odd situation for reservations. If a train is crowded and somebody has a seat reservation, the person with the reservation can ask any occupant of the seat to vacate it (assuming reservations haven't been suspended etc etc etc.) I reserve a wheelchair space. But it would be very difficult to say: I've reserved that space, please stand elsewhere - particularly if that would mean one or more people physically having to get off!

 

[Qwerty133]

That's true, however despite having done a very lot of TransPennine journeys in my wheelchair (I live near Leeds/York and my family are in Greater Manchester) I have never had the situation where it has been too crammed to get me on. It's been pretty packed and unpleasantly claustrophobic on occasion, but I have always been able to get on and travel.

So whilst there are doubtless situations where the train is too packed to fit a wheelchair user on, I do not believe that this will be the case for all 12 trains a day, and not for all sections of all 12 trains. So overcrowding wouldn't prevent those trains being used by wheelchair users now, for at least some of them - but running inaccessible trains guarantees those trains can't be used by wheelchair users.

As a side-musing: It's an odd situation for reservations. If a train is crowded and somebody has a seat reservation, the person with the reservation can ask any occupant of the seat to vacate it (assuming reservations haven't been suspended etc etc etc.) I reserve a wheelchair space. But it would be very difficult to say: I've reserved that space, please stand elsewhere - particularly if that would mean one or more people physically having to get off!

Equally in order to ask someone to vacate your reserved seat you have to be able to physically get to the seat. If a train is full and standing to the point that people can't move it is very unlikely that a seat reservation will be accepted as a reason as to why one passenger should take the place of another passenger who is already on the train (although in some cases where trains are expected to be busy from their origin people with reservations are sometimes allowed to board before anyone else, but I would hope in that instance a wheelchair user with a reservation would be afforded the same courtesy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a side-musing: It's an odd situation for reservations. If a train is crowded and somebody has a seat reservation, the person with the reservation can ask any occupant of the seat to vacate it (assuming reservations haven't been suspended etc etc etc.) I reserve a wheelchair space. But it would be very difficult to say: I've reserved that space, please stand elsewhere - particularly if that would mean one or more people physically having to get off!

That's also an issue with buses, where it is normally "one wheelchair user for three standees" legally.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It has been announced internally TPE will NOT be using Mk3 coaching stock in passenger service.

Instead they will be used exclusively for driver training ahead of Mk5 introduction in the autumn

 

[nedchester]

It has been announced internally TPE will NOT be using Mk3 coaching stock in passenger service.

Instead they will be used exclusively for driver training ahead of Mk5 introduction in the autumn

Well done to those people who kicked off about the introduction of the Mk 3s and will now make journeys with TPE more uncomfortable than they otherwise would have been been.

 

[mde]

Well done to those people who kicked off about the introduction of the Mk 3s and will now make journeys with TPE more uncomfortable than they otherwise would have been been.

Sorry you have been inconvenienced, but, end of the day, a better solution should have been put in place by the operator. The fault lies with TPE and DfT, not the disabled (or otherwise PRM) persons.

 

[yorkie]

It is disappointing that some people would rather have trains so overcrowded that they physically cannot board, but unfortunately that's the way it is

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry you have been inconvenienced, but, end of the day, a better solution should have been put in place by the operator. The fault lies with TPE and DfT, not the disabled (or otherwise PRM) persons.

While it wasn't a good solution it didn't breach PRM legislation or require Chris Grayling to issue an exemption order - TPE planned to get the mk3s replaced by mk5s before the PRM deadline. It will be ironic if a 185 now turns up so full that a wheelchair passenger has to remain on the platform until the next service arrives.