ERTMS / ETCS on WAML London - Cambridge

[Armardar]

Hi,

I am applying for a trainee driver job with GA. I am currently in another good city job so it is a big risk swapping the office for the cab, but I have a few questions I am struggling to find answers for in terms of the future of the role and sustainability of skills and operation.

Currently, the WAML uses conventional 4 aspect signalling with 379s and 317s serving the route, which for me would be an ideal loco/operation setup. Having looked at the strategic business plan set out by Network Rail, I can see that the renewals budget for line side signalling equipment has been removed, and CP6 is laying the foundation for ETCS signalling (that we can already see in operation on open rail with Thameslink) with ambitious projects such as London to Peterborough and Cross Rail all using ETCS.

Though I can undoubtedly see the benefits of digital signalling and has no problem with A-DAS, my biggest concern is the implementation of ATO. If I was to become a driver, ATO would be enough for me to leave the role, so I wanted some idea of how long it will be until things change. Looking at network rails publically available route plans for the WAML, it says the line will be ETCS enabled by 2040, and of course with he new fleet arriving next year for GA I can see the bigger plan to be the implementation of a traffic management system.

My main questions: how long will drivers be conventionally operating locos on the WAML, will ATO be implemented, if so when. Do you think you could still get a whole career out of being a train driver, would working life as a driver be as bad as I think it would be with ATO, does ATO spell the end of the job by making it redundant?

(PS. yes, I am aware that the ETCS framework that the UK railway is currently installing is level 2 so there is no moving block or full autonomy, but level 2 still contains ATO and my interest are in the operation, control and driving of the train)

Thanks,

Arm

 

[DY444]

Short answer is no-one knows. The only reasonable certainty is that whatever date is being touted by NR for anything will probably move to the right.

 

[rebmcr]

ATO is unlikely to be implemented within your career on longer routes through countryside with mixed traffic.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d suggest doing a lot more research into what ATO actually means.

No active plans for ETCS or ATO on the WAML except for the Crossrail 2 bit (which may not happen, and not for st less 20 years anyway.

The signalling is only 15/16 years old, plenty of life yet.

 

[D365]

ATO is definitely not going to be implemented outside of metro frequency routes before 2040.

 

[Steve Harris]

My main questions: how long will drivers be conventionally operating locos on the WAML,

The Pedant in me says, that stopped in the early 90's when the services moved from Class 86 Loco's to 317 EMU's !

Although to be fair Class 66 Diesel loco's have operated on the WAML since then but not on a scheduled passenger service.

Sorry, i couldn't resist !!

Welcome to the Forum though

 

[MisterT]

(PS. yes, I am aware that the ETCS framework that the UK railway is currently installing is level 2 so there is no moving block or full autonomy, but level 2 still contains ATO and my interest are in the operation, control and driving of the train)

I have no idea about the future of this line, buy please allow me to correct one thing:
ERTMS Level 2 does not contain ATO. Even when L2 is installed, it doesn't mean that it'll automatically become ATO.
There are a few companies offering ATO solutions using ERTMS L2 as a safety system. ATO could be installed on any line with any modern safety system that 'knows' the exact position of the trains. Older systems doesn't tend to have such feature and only know the block, not the exact location.

 

[Armardar]

The Pedant in me says, that stopped in the early 90's when the services moved from Class 86 Loco's to 317 EMU's !

Although to be fair Class 66 Diesel loco's have operated on the WAML since then but not on a scheduled passenger service.

Sorry, i couldn't resist !!

Welcome to the Forum though

Agreed !!

Thanks

 

[Armardar]

I have no idea about the future of this line, buy please allow me to correct one thing:
ERTMS Level 2 does not contain ATO. Even when L2 is installed, it doesn't mean that it'll automatically become ATO.
There are a few companies offering ATO solutions using ERTMS L2 as a safety system. ATO could be installed on any line with any modern safety system that 'knows' the exact position of the trains. Older systems doesn't tend to have such feature and only know the block, not the exact location.

Thanks for reply...

I mean I know that ERTMS is a signalling solution and it is seperate. But ETCS is the bit that deals with train control so I always assumed that ERTMS would lead to an ATO incentive. As mentioned, have no problem with the signalling system, great for capacity and ADAS means faster speeds and a more informed driver which is all positive .... If GA was to have digital signalling with a driver in control I'd have no problem

 

[MisterT]

As ETCS is a part of the ERTMS system, it also doesn't feature ATO. So unless it is specifically announced as being ATO, I wouldn't worry about ERTMS/ETCS.
That doesn't mean, however, that ATO wouldn't be a possibility in the future. It could be installed at any time as an addition to the ERTMS/ETCS system.

 

[Armardar]

I love trains