EMT and Thameslink (MML)

[Wilts Wanderer]

This would be really sensible and would also enable a northbound service from Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering to go straight through to Leicester and beyond without the disadvantage of using up one of the other valuable 4 paths for another slow and stopping train. Currently EMT do split at least one Northbound peak time service at Kettering and there is a small time delay while this happens.

If the new franchisee orders new electric units for Corby and the new bi-modes from the same supplier, and from the same model family, is there any reason why they would not be able to operate coupled up?

In theory the Hitachi IET should be able to do this, run a 5-car electric-only set coupled with a bi-mode or (theoretical) diesel-only set.

 

[43074]

Do not make it too difficult..there are shed loads of good , quite new air con EMU's available for a wonderful Corby type service. Could be some great negotiations there with the ROSCO's on price as a buyers market.

It is this half hourly Market Harborough to Leicester market that gets me - yes I know it is a good catchment area and all that , maybe it should be 2 trains an hour ...trains an hour "best fit" ....(i.e on the slows or semi's), with some peak quality fast calls. ?

The Network Rail Regional/Urban Market Study (2013) puts the passenger numbers for Market Harborough to Leicester at 165,000 journeys per year (p71 - OK this was 6 years ago but if anything that figure will have increased...), which is quite a bit behind Loughborough but more than any of the stations on the Melton Mowbray/Nuneaton corridors for journeys into Leicester. It probably ought to be 2tph if possible, especially given there are more than adequate bus services between Market Harborough and Leicester and of course the A6, to give rail a reasonably good chance against the competition. The folk in that area would also make quite a noise if they were to lose their 2nd train per hour, as was proved in December 2008! (Hence the call in the Nottingham fasts...)

 

[edwin_m]

In theory the Hitachi IET should be able to do this, run a 5-car electric-only set coupled with a bi-mode or (theoretical) diesel-only set.

Yes it would, though I don't think the diesel-only would fit any of the scenarios. However you are then effectively buying more bi-modes, albeit some without the diesel engines, but paying over the odds compared with a standard EMU whether existing or new build. And the 80x isn't ideal for boarding commuters somewhere like Bedford where platform occupancy is critical. Despite suggesting them for various places even DfT hasn't managed to get any onto commuter routes. The FLIRT might be a better fit, but still not ideal for the role (boarding times better than 80x but still slower than commuter stock, and lower top speed).

 

[Kettledrum]

Do not make it too difficult..there are shed loads of good , quite new air con EMU's available for a wonderful Corby type service. Could be some great negotiations there with the ROSCO's on price as a buyers market.

It is this half hourly Market Harborough to Leicester market that gets me - yes I know it is a good catchment area and all that , maybe it should be 2 trains an hour ...trains an hour "best fit" ....(i.e on the slows or semi's), with some peak quality fast calls. ?

Yes, there could be some really good prices on the EMUs but at the cost of one TPH to stations further north, and the inability to run genuinely fast services to Derby and Nottingham in the peak.

The huge economic benefit of running an extra 1TPH and the faster services to Derby and Nottingham could outweigh the saving you'd get on a micro fleet of dedicated EMUs.

You'd have to spend millions on infrastructure costs to reduce peak journey times for Derby and Nottingham so my view is that the additional cost of buying EMUs that are compatible with the bi-modes would be well worth it.

If all of the existing four trains per hour could run non stop from Leicester to London, you'd have a much deserved journey time improvement for London services from Leicester and further North. Even if one of these stopped at Market Harborough, you'd still have faster services.

Stations further South could be served by the new fast EMU services two per hour, with one splitting at Kettering to provide an additional bi-mode slow service per hour to connect the stations south of Leicester with the ones north of Leicester. This split service would also provide the 2nd train per hour for Market Harborough.

 

[londonmidland]

We’ve been crawling at around 20/30 mph from around St Albans and still are passing Hendon but have kept to right time?

Is this what it’s like now then, a lot of slack in times and slow running south of Luton?

The train I am on - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C66007/2018/06/01/advanced

 

[ChiefPlanner]

We’ve been crawling at around 20/30 mph from around St Albans and still are passing Hendon but have kept to right time?

Is this what it’s like now then, a lot of slack in times and slow running south of Luton?

The train I am on - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C66007/2018/06/01/advanced

Ongoing track circuit / points failure in the Cricklewood area ...

 

[DaveN]

That's why it is late now but the reason that it was so early at St Albans is that it should be getting slowed down by the new Thameslink 08:22 from Bedford, which was introduced because this EMT service is no longer allowed to call at Bedford but the new service was cancelled....

That's maybe slightly unfair - the original idea was that the 08:22 train that would have actually been very few new MML thameslink trains with stops at Leagrave and Harpenden too.

It is a good example of what is wrong with the whole new timetable, the users of the EMT train are all disadvantaged and the some of the people it was designed to help don't get any benefit. St Albans would gain if the train actually ran...

 

[A0]

That's why it is late now but the reason that it was so early at St Albans is that it should be getting slowed down by the new Thameslink 08:22 from Bedford, which was introduced because this EMT service is no longer allowed to call at Bedford but the new service was cancelled....

That's maybe slightly unfair - the original idea was that the 08:22 train that would have actually been very few new MML thameslink trains with stops at Leagrave and Harpenden too.

It is a good example of what is wrong with the whole new timetable, the users of the EMT train are all disadvantaged and the some of the people it was designed to help don't get any benefit. St Albans would gain if the train actually ran...

I don't see how you can make the assertions you have. For *most* EMT users i.e. those from north of Bedford their train wasn't jammed as a result of getting a load of extra passengers boarding at Bedford or Luton. It made good time until it was in north London where it was impeded by infrastructure problems - as described by Chief Planner. That meant it was 5 late into St P - hardly EMTs fault.

 

[DaveN]

I was answering why this particular service is slowed down in the new timetable, rather than the specific issue on Friday. It has 2 minutes of pathing allowance at Bedford, 3 at Leagrave and 3.5 at Harpenden. Those are there because of the new Thameslink train - I'm not claiming that it was EMTs fault as such.

It is an example of where the supposed benefits of the new timetable actually disadvantage more people than it helps.

 

[Class 170101]

A schedule with lots of pathing in it is a poor schedule in my book simple as. Now sometimes it is neccessary but shouldn't have been for the EMT timetable. Thameslink has shafted the MML hand over fist I am afraid and should be ashamed of what it has done to non Thameslink users.

 

[DaveN]

But too be fair they have made things worse for most of their own customers too - even if they were able to run their current timetable.
Even for the stations north of the river that appear to be "winners" with the new timetable, have slower journey times and often bigger gaps in the services that people actually want to use at some key peak times.

 

[jayah]

I doubt there will many commuters betrween Bedford and stations north now. They would have almost certainly swapped to the congested M1.

Given 1B14 calls Wellingborough 0751 then non stop Bedford and 6min pathing following a TL service before St Albans what exactly is the excuse for running a bus?

 

[43074]

Given 1B14 calls Wellingborough 0751 then non stop Bedford and 6min pathing following a TL service before St Albans what exactly is the excuse for running a bus?

Lack of capacity in the evening peak (e.g. the 1650 is booked a 6 car HST, 1750 & 1805 ex St Pancras are booked 5 cars), platforming and performance issues at Bedford in the morning peak.

 

[bb21]

Given 1B14 calls Wellingborough 0751 then non stop Bedford and 6min pathing following a TL service before St Albans what exactly is the excuse for running a bus?

You are not going to get a seat getting on 1B14 at Bedford even if it called there, despite it being a 10-car, in addition to all the other issues mentioned by 43074.

 

[jayah]

You are not going to get a seat getting on 1B14 at Bedford even if it called there, despite it being a 10-car, in addition to all the other issues mentioned by 43074.

Are there fewer trains planned than before May, current debacle aside, or was 1B14 more than 10 cars before?

 

[LouiseA]

Not that much of a difference really as far as I can see - Wellingborough and Kettering are the busiest EMT stations in the AM peak, Luton and Luton Airport didn't really contribute that many London bound passengers for EMT, whilst Bedford did but relatively few trains stopped anyway. The fresh air will be carried when stops at Wellingborough and Kettering are omitted from morning peak trains from Notts and Sheffield and electrics to Corby start. The evening peak is slightly different as there's a broader mix of customers so even the non stop Leicester services can be full and standing anyway.

I've been taking the train from Wellingborough to London for three years and have to disagree. Before the timetable changes, stopping at Bedford always completely packed out my train (the 7.32 from Wellingborough), with standing space only - making it hard to move between carriages (to use the loo/bin/etc). I can't say I miss these stops but I do think ThamesLink need to sort their trains and timetable out asap!

 

[LouiseA]

And for those saying that there are now empty EMT services whooshing past Bedford/Luton, this is just untrue at peak time. My train leaves from Wellingborough at circa 95% capacity each day.

 

[Abpj17]

One train isn't a enough of a sample - semi-empty trains are seen going past.

Multiple Thameslink trains are crush loading. Some people can't even get on the trains, let alone forego what feels like a relative luxury of using the loo/bin/etc.

 

[edwin_m]

One train isn't a enough of a sample - semi-empty trains are seen going past.

Multiple Thameslink trains are crush loading. Some people can't even get on the trains, let alone forego what feels like a relative luxury of using the loo/bin/etc.

Doesn't that have something to do wtih multiple other Thameslink trains being cancelled at present?

The increase in capacity on Thameslink if and when the timetable comes right should far outweigh the loss of capacity due to EMT no longer calling. And the Corby trains sort everything definitively in a couple of years time.