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EMT and Thameslink (MML)

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muddythefish

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I'm pretty sure from travelling on both Mk1 and Mk2 based stock that they were far from quiet - the absence of air con meant windows being open resulting in wind noise. The doors rattled, the seats squeaked. They stank of stale humans and cigarette smoke.

Most people don't travel on a train to avail themselves of 'fine dining' - indeed on a journey of less than 1 hour, most don't even bother with the on-board refreshments - so why take up valuable space providing full kitchen facilities which might be used on 2 services a day?

As for the ticketing - I think BR did more than its fair share of ripping people off - the problem in those days was you turned up to the ticket office and had to buy whatever the bloke behind the window told you. Whereas now you have transparency - you can look up fares on a mobile phone - and most of the restrictions are pretty easy to understand e.g. if it says Virgin Trains Only - getting on board a LNW train would seem to be wrong. If it says 'Not via London' guess what - if you head to Euston or St Pancras you're probably in breach.

You want to live in the 1970s - that's fine. As I said earlier, just go to Loughborough and you can ride loco hauled Mk1s to your heart's content - but the majority of us much prefer a clean, reliable train which turns up frequently - and don't forget places like Kettering or Wellingborough didn't enjoy a regular clock-face timetable as late as 1998. OK, it's a bit compromised at the moment having gone to a 20/40 split, but that's only until the half hourly Corby service is sorted and then it will be back to sensible times as well.

If you'd ever travelled in Mk 1s and Mk2s you'd know you're talking nonsense. As for "stale humans" and "cigarette smoke", designated areas were smoking only while the stench in a cramped, claustrophobic Meridian from being couped up in a poor environment with fellow passengers is one reason why I do not enjoy travelling in "modern" trains.

I've never read such revisionist bilge about BR ticketing. Tickets prices were clearly stated, uncomplicated and, above all, good value for money. You could turn up at the station on the day and know you were going to be paying a reasonable price. There were very few restrictions and prices were set across the national network instead of the current fragmented, privatised mess.

It's not a case of "living in the 1970s" (the 1950s and 60s were preferable anyway) but pointing out that for many people changes on the railway have not been for the better, and that the travelling experience (in my opinion) is far worse than it was years ago. I used to look forward to travelling by train - now I don't. Kindly explain how and when you were appointed as the spokesman for "the majority".
 
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Kettledrum

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I would not call express services, many with restaurant cars, to/from Sheffield alternately via Nottingham and Derby all day long a Cinderella service.

The transformation has indeed been significant. One thing MML did early on was remove the restaurant service from the northbound peak trains from St Pancras - this caused me, and many others, to transfer to the East Coast route to Doncaster.

Just out of interest Sheff1, what would make you switch back to the MML (if anything)? if EMT re-introduced a restaurant service, would that be a factor, or are the journey lengths and the train times from Doncaster so much better that you would never transfer back?
 

muddythefish

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I would not call express services, many with restaurant cars, to/from Sheffield alternately via Nottingham and Derby all day long a Cinderella service.

The transformation has indeed been significant. One thing MML did early on was remove the restaurant service from the northbound peak trains from St Pancras - this caused me, and many others, to transfer to the East Coast route to Doncaster. On a more prosaic front, the loss of the cross-platform interchange at Leicester between fast and semi-fast services - again an all day feature when I first started using the route under BR - has made journeys from Sheffield to the likes of Kettering, Bedford and Luton less convenient. Obviously smaller flows than Sheffield - London, but not insignificant.

What engines powered the trains in BR days (which is what I assume the second part refers to) is not relevant at all to most passengers, myself included.

It's also forgotten that the MML is days gone by had daily (some regular) trains to Manchester, Bradford, Glasgow and Edinburgh among other destinations. These services gave the East Midlands direct connections to those cities and were a great loss when they were withdrawn. Cinderella indeed.
 

Kettledrum

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It's also forgotten that the MML is days gone by had daily (some regular) trains to Manchester, Bradford, Glasgow and Edinburgh among other destinations. These services gave the East Midlands direct connections to those cities and were a great loss when they were withdrawn. Cinderella indeed.

You can still get to some of these destinations via Nottingham, Sheffield and Derby using XC trains or the EMT Liverpool to Norwich service - albeit by different routes. Problem is these trains are too slow and too overcrowded as well.
 

43074

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In my opinion there are really 2 problems with the MML service: the first is the peak service - which is obviously geared heavily towards the Northamptonshire towns as that's where a significant amount of the demand is, but at the same time it comes at the expense of journey times from Derby/Nottingham and Sheffield which are very slow - e.g. leaving Sheffield around 06:00 there are quicker options both via Tamworth or Doncaster compared to the direct MML service. Obviously electrification to Corby will help address this, but my 4-car 222 (vice HST) loading to about 65% capacity leaving Leicester on a 08:30 arrival at St Pancras this morning shows there's quite a bit of surpressed demand there. On the whole I don't think there's much wrong with the off peak service, which actually is a pretty good balance of decent journey times for the longer distances and an OK service between the intermediate stations. It's arguably better than either the ECML or WCML in that regard.

The other issue in my view is that journey time improvements have been carried out largely benefiting Sheffield over Nottingham, meaning the service from Nottingham isn't actually that much faster compared to when the HSTs were introduced - the 1 hr 40 journey time on the fast service have been standard since the 1990s, even when MML ran Nottingham to London calling only at Leicester, whilst the 1 hr 55 peak journey times haven't improved in years and remains uncompetitive compared to the ECML via Grantham, which has at least 1 non-stop arrival in London before 09:00. This is despite demand from Nottingham to London actually being stronger than that from Sheffield or Derby. A lot of the issues with EMT aren't necessarily their fault, merely inherited issues which they have neither the money or the resources to properly resolve.

You are right about all the investment going onto the Thameslink services. This has actually left very few paths available for the longer distance MML services. Ideally you would have more paths and you'd operate limited stop fast trains to Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby. There are too few paths now for East Midlands Trains, so the "fast trains" have to make too many stops.

To be honest 6 per hour from St Pancras is probably about right for the route as a whole, it's just a case of where you send them: I don't think sending 2 per hour to Corby achieves very much, so if one of those were to run to Leicester instead you would maintain the direct Leicester - Wellingborough/Bedford/Luton Airport link and perhaps more importantly could remove a Market Harborough call every hour from a fast Nottingham service for instance. It will be interesting to see what level of service is specified in the ITT for the next franchise when it's released. In the peaks the service will always be geared towards Thameslink as that's where the more significant demand is - and quite rightly - but it's just a case of balancing the needs of that with everything further North.
 

sheff1

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Just out of interest Sheff1, what would make you switch back to the MML (if anything)? if EMT re-introduced a restaurant service, would that be a factor, or are the journey lengths and the train times from Doncaster so much better that you would never transfer back?

I actually switched back to MML after the catering provision on the East Coast became totally unreliable (and EMT introduced fairly decent hot food in First - not quite a full meal, but more than just a snack and certainly better than the very real prospect of nothing at all out of Kings Cross).

Journey times (door to door) are pretty much the same via either route, so the onboard experience was the deciding factor.
 
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A0

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To be honest 6 per hour from St Pancras is probably about right for the route as a whole, it's just a case of where you send them: I don't think sending 2 per hour to Corby achieves very much, so if one of those were to run to Leicester instead you would maintain the direct Leicester - Wellingborough/Bedford/Luton Airport link and perhaps more importantly could remove a Market Harborough call every hour from a fast Nottingham service for instance. It will be interesting to see what level of service is specified in the ITT for the next franchise when it's released. In the peaks the service will always be geared towards Thameslink as that's where the more significant demand is - and quite rightly - but it's just a case of balancing the needs of that with everything further North.

Isn't 6 tph the long term plan though?

2 tph to Corby, Nottingham and Sheffield.

The Corby's will be the stoppers. The question about the stopping pattern of the others is open to question - 1 or 2 will need to stop at Kettering and Market Harborough. That leaves the question of whether Luton / Airport will pick up a stop on a Nottingham or Sheffield service.

The Corby's will be self contained diagram by virtue of being EMUs.
 

Speedbird96

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very good post, Speedbird96!

In respect of the Nottingham fasts stopping at East Midlands Parkway - I recall that the line speed into Nottingham is really slow, so this stop doesn't add as much as you might have thought. It would be interesting to consider how much investment would be needed to increase the line speed into Nottingham.

You are right about all the investment going onto the Thameslink services. This has actually left very few paths available for the longer distance MML services. Ideally you would have more paths and you'd operate limited stop fast trains to Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby. There are too few paths now for East Midlands Trains, so the "fast trains" have to make too many stops.

I do believe the line-speed into Nottingham was increased following the remodelling of the station and the major re-signalling works. I have just always found it bizarre that the semi-fasts omitted East Midlands Parkway yet the fasts didn't.

It's also forgotten that the MML is days gone by had daily (some regular) trains to Manchester, Bradford, Glasgow and Edinburgh among other destinations. These services gave the East Midlands direct connections to those cities and were a great loss when they were withdrawn. Cinderella indeed.

Those long distance services from London St. Pancras to the destinations you have listed were withdrawn during BR due to the improvements and faster journeys made to the East Coast and West Coast Main Lines. Reiterating that Midland Mainline did operate London St. Pancras to Manchester services between May 2003 until September 2004, but that was only because of the West Coast Modernisation Programme ongoing delays.

As already mentioned, Derby sees regular services to Glasgow and Edinburgh with Cross Country, whilst Nottingham sees regular services to Manchester and soon will see services to Bradford from 2019 when the hourly Leeds service is extended. Leicester granted does not see these services but can change at Derby or Birmingham.

In my opinion there are really 2 problems with the MML service: the first is the peak service - which is obviously geared heavily towards the Northamptonshire towns as that's where a significant amount of the demand is, but at the same time it comes at the expense of journey times from Derby/Nottingham and Sheffield which are very slow - e.g. leaving Sheffield around 06:00 there are quicker options both via Tamworth or Doncaster compared to the direct MML service. Obviously electrification to Corby will help address this, but my 4-car 222 (vice HST) loading to about 65% capacity leaving Leicester on a 08:30 arrival at St Pancras this morning shows there's quite a bit of surpressed demand there. On the whole I don't think there's much wrong with the off peak service, which actually is a pretty good balance of decent journey times for the longer distances and an OK service between the intermediate stations. It's arguably better than either the ECML or WCML in that regard.

The other issue in my view is that journey time improvements have been carried out largely benefiting Sheffield over Nottingham, meaning the service from Nottingham isn't actually that much faster compared to when the HSTs were introduced - the 1 hr 40 journey time on the fast service have been standard since the 1990s, even when MML ran Nottingham to London calling only at Leicester, whilst the 1 hr 55 peak journey times haven't improved in years and remains uncompetitive compared to the ECML via Grantham, which has at least 1 non-stop arrival in London before 09:00. This is despite demand from Nottingham to London actually being stronger than that from Sheffield or Derby. A lot of the issues with EMT aren't necessarily their fault, merely inherited issues which they have neither the money or the resources to properly resolve.



To be honest 6 per hour from St Pancras is probably about right for the route as a whole, it's just a case of where you send them: I don't think sending 2 per hour to Corby achieves very much, so if one of those were to run to Leicester instead you would maintain the direct Leicester - Wellingborough/Bedford/Luton Airport link and perhaps more importantly could remove a Market Harborough call every hour from a fast Nottingham service for instance. It will be interesting to see what level of service is specified in the ITT for the next franchise when it's released. In the peaks the service will always be geared towards Thameslink as that's where the more significant demand is - and quite rightly - but it's just a case of balancing the needs of that with everything further North.

Agree entirely with what you have said; I do believe both Sheffield and Nottingham benefitted equally until the December 2008 timetable changes where Derby and Sheffield benefitted more from journey times and Nottingham saw a decline.

It is anyones guess as to what the ITT will encompass for the future East Midlands franchise... I await with baited breath!

If you'd ever travelled in Mk 1s and Mk2s you'd know you're talking nonsense. As for "stale humans" and "cigarette smoke", designated areas were smoking only while the stench in a cramped, claustrophobic Meridian from being couped up in a poor environment with fellow passengers is one reason why I do not enjoy travelling in "modern" trains.

I've never read such revisionist bilge about BR ticketing. Tickets prices were clearly stated, uncomplicated and, above all, good value for money. You could turn up at the station on the day and know you were going to be paying a reasonable price. There were very few restrictions and prices were set across the national network instead of the current fragmented, privatised mess.

It's not a case of "living in the 1970s" (the 1950s and 60s were preferable anyway) but pointing out that for many people changes on the railway have not been for the better, and that the travelling experience (in my opinion) is far worse than it was years ago. I used to look forward to travelling by train - now I don't. Kindly explain how and when you were appointed as the spokesman for "the majority".

I cannot agree with your sentiment and politely disagree; travelling experience changes over time, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse and that is something we are going to have to get use to. I do not agree with you about the Meridians, they are certainly improved upon the original Voyagers and are a decent travel experience (as I've said, there are far worse trains operating on the National Rail network). I hardly ever notice the smell from them, and will only find them cramped and claustrophobic like any other train during rush hour. For regular passengers, they wouldn't necessarily care about the type of train they board, as long as they get them from A-to-B.

Todays ticketing system is only complicated if passengers don't understand the terms and conditions, for me I do find ticketing today straight forward, but if I am stuck when it comes to certain tickets then I will check National Rail or the TOCs for clarification.

There is an interesting point you have raised though about whether the railways have changed for better or worse, and an argument can be made for both sides either during British Rail or privatisation. As someone who enjoys travelling by train, I still look forward to the journeys irrespective of what type of train I will be travelling on, and most of friends and lecturers at university will share that view. As long as they have a seat and are comfortable, they will have no complaints about their journey.

In the case of the Midland Main Line, the changes have been for the better overall since privatisation.
 

thedbdiboy

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I've never read such revisionist bilge about BR ticketing. Tickets prices were clearly stated, uncomplicated and, above all, good value for money. You could turn up at the station on the day and know you were going to be paying a reasonable price. There were very few restrictions and prices were set across the national network instead of the current fragmented, privatised mess.
All opinions are of course subjective, but I was a booking clerk in the 1980s and the BR fares structure was complex enough to be the butt of jokes. I remember an extended Ben Elton sketch (back when he was an angry young comedian) richly taking the P out of Bluesavers and Whitesavers....
 

muddythefish

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All opinions are of course subjective, but I was a booking clerk in the 1980s and the BR fares structure was complex enough to be the butt of jokes. I remember an extended Ben Elton sketch (back when he was an angry young comedian) richly taking the P out of Bluesavers and Whitesavers....

It seemed easy at the time, probably because it was a unified, national network. Now I'm never sure which privatised, profiteer franchise or website is trying to rip me off. I often used to make a decision to travel on the day (and still do). Under BR you knew you'd pay a fair price; these days turn up and travel prices on the day are ridiculous .
 
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43074

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Isn't 6 tph the long term plan though?

2 tph to Corby, Nottingham and Sheffield.

The Corby's will be the stoppers. The question about the stopping pattern of the others is open to question - 1 or 2 will need to stop at Kettering and Market Harborough. That leaves the question of whether Luton / Airport will pick up a stop on a Nottingham or Sheffield service.

The Corby's will be self contained diagram by virtue of being EMUs.

Yes it is, but my post was more questioning whether you need to send 2 per hour to Corby when if you were to send one of those to Leicester you'd more closely match demand and probably derive even greater benefits. Obviously you'd need a regional bimode unit for that, but they are out there, e.g. Stadler Flirts.

If the schematic diagrams of the 6tph service are anything to go by Nottingham will continue to be the poor relation to Sheffield as its those which will stop South of Leicester.
 

Kettledrum

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Yes it is, but my post was more questioning whether you need to send 2 per hour to Corby when if you were to send one of those to Leicester you'd more closely match demand and probably derive even greater benefits. Obviously you'd need a regional bimode unit for that, but they are out there, e.g. Stadler Flirts.

If the schematic diagrams of the 6tph service are anything to go by Nottingham will continue to be the poor relation to Sheffield as its those which will stop South of Leicester.

That's why I don't believe 6tph is sufficient.

On the West Coast main line, I can see towns such as Lichfield, Rugby, Tamworth and Nuneaton with one very fast limited stop train per hour. This is as well as the commuter services that serve the places closer to London.

The Thameslink services mean you only have 6 paths available for the EMT MML services, and 2 of those would be needed for the Northamptonshire commuters.

The 4 remaining paths currently provide Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby with one mediocre speed service per hour and one slow speed service per hour. This is better than in BR days, but isn't really good enough for todays passengers. (Hence why so many drive to Doncaster, Tamworth and Grantham to use other lines into London). Chesterfield, East Midlands Parkway and Loughborough currently don't get the sort of peak time fast services enjoyed by towns such as Lichfield and Tamworth on the West Coast services either.

Perhaps if the Corby services were Thameslink services, this might help, but it's definately not the plan.
 

edwin_m

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I do believe the line-speed into Nottingham was increased following the remodelling of the station and the major re-signalling works.
Yes it was. Probably saved about 30s so not really significant on its own (there was a better saving for trains going north).

I have just always found it bizarre that the semi-fasts omitted East Midlands Parkway yet the fasts didn't.
Parkway and Nottingham both have a faster and a slower London train per hour. Parkway was primarily intended to capture those rural dwellers who needed to go to London. I don't think it has been very successful in this, as the London service isn't really fast enough and once people are in their cars it isn't a good enough reason not to continue to Grantham. Megabus generates a lot of the patronage there but is essentially a marginal business that will disappear if the franchise goes to someone who doesn't also run coach services. The business about serving the airport was always a bit of a sideshow - at least three other stations have better connecting buses - and who travels long-distance to East Midlands Airport anyway? Luton airport has a better range of flights so I hope a decent connection there from the north is perpetuated (but that doesn't involve stopping the fast London trains).

Agree entirely with what you have said; I do believe both Sheffield and Nottingham benefitted equally until
This arises from the pressure from the locals to provide better services to Sheffield. Hence Sheffield has two services that are non-stop south of Leicester and timed for the faster Meridians, the second formerly being a semi-fast to Derby that was speeded up and extended. One of these really ought to pick up the Market Harborough stop instead of the faster Nottingham train, which timed for a HST so doesn't match the journey times either.

Hopefully the policy will be to continue to provide fast journeys for the four main destinations of Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield, while recognising that in the long term HS2 doesn't supplant the need for a fast service to the first three but will take most of the through London-Sheffield passengers.
 

A0

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That's why I don't believe 6tph is sufficient.

On the West Coast main line, I can see towns such as Lichfield, Rugby, Tamworth and Nuneaton with one very fast limited stop train per hour. This is as well as the commuter services that serve the places closer to London.

The Thameslink services mean you only have 6 paths available for the EMT MML services, and 2 of those would be needed for the Northamptonshire commuters.

The 4 remaining paths currently provide Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby with one mediocre speed service per hour and one slow speed service per hour. This is better than in BR days, but isn't really good enough for todays passengers. (Hence why so many drive to Doncaster, Tamworth and Grantham to use other lines into London). Chesterfield, East Midlands Parkway and Loughborough currently don't get the sort of peak time fast services enjoyed by towns such as Lichfield and Tamworth on the West Coast services either.

Perhaps if the Corby services were Thameslink services, this might help, but it's definately not the plan.

There is no evidence that 'so many' are driving to Tamworth, Doncaster etc - two posters on here stating they do isn't a representative sample. As I pointed out yesterday, the only place it makes *some* sense to do that with is Nottingham, because Grantham is quite close with decent links and a decent service on the ECML.

Most of the day places on the WCML like Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton only get the LNW Crewe services - that's not about to change.

The MML doesn't have the same spread of towns as the WCML in the midlands - so trying to compare them in that sense makes little sense.

If Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham have 2 trains / hour to London that puts them in the same position as Leeds, York or Newcastle - which feels about right. Yes, over on the West Coast Birmingham and Manchester both get more, but they're much bigger than any of the MML destinations - being # 2 and #3 cities in the UK. Then you're left with trying to improve the journey times, but given the line itself, that's going to be difficult as a quick look at map demonstrates - and as I pointed out before, electrification on its own wouldn't make the difference.
 

whhistle

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Apart from possibly a couple of new business parks in the Toton area, HS2's economic effect in the East Midlands will be minimal.
Nobody can say what will happen.
Yes, people can predict but it's just that, a prediction.
And when do you measure that success? After the first 12 months of operating? 5 years? 10 years?
 

Kettledrum

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There is no evidence that 'so many' are driving to Tamworth, Doncaster etc - two posters on here stating they do isn't a representative sample. As I pointed out yesterday, the only place it makes *some* sense to do that with is Nottingham, because Grantham is quite close with decent links and a decent service on the ECML.

.

You may have "pointed it out" but doesn't make you correct. Dismissing it as "no evidence" is somewhat harsh unless you are wanting to prove something in legal terms. It also depends on what you define as "so many"

My "evidence" is my first hand experience of talking to colleagues and other passengers who regularly commute from Sheffield and Derby to London - so it is limited to peak time only, and it is only one or two peak time services, so that limits the numbers.

It's triangulated from observations on the platform at Tamworth station and that at least one rail booking system shows the fastest time of getting to London Euston in the morning peak from Derby is by changing at Tamworth.

In this respect, it's stronger "evidence" than some "evidence" that Beeching used to inform closure decisions of whole routes.

Granted, it probably depends on where you're going in London and where you're setting off from, but the two or three other posters on here who have confirmed the alternative of travelling from Tamworth or Doncaster won't be the only ones.
 

whhistle

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Sorry, but it was better all those years ago (I speak from experience!)
I prepared a response but can't fault replies by @A0wen @Robertj21a and @Speedbird96
Forum needs the "like" system enabled...



Kindly explain how and when you were appointed as the spokesman for "the majority".
If "the majority" didn't like train travel, they wouldn't use it.
Our railways carry more passengers now than they did under BR. Thus you could say they are more successful in terms of their principle purpose than under BR management.

While it's fine to be in the minority, don't try and suggest it was better back then. It might be for you personally but what you want out of rail travel isn't shared by many people; not many people at all.
 

Ianno87

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very good post, Speedbird96!

In respect of the Nottingham fasts stopping at East Midlands Parkway - I recall that the line speed into Nottingham is really slow, so this stop doesn't add as much as you might have thought. It would be interesting to consider how much investment would be needed to increase the line speed into Nottingham.

You are right about all the investment going onto the Thameslink services. This has actually left very few paths available for the longer distance MML services. Ideally you would have more paths and you'd operate limited stop fast trains to Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby. There are too few paths now for East Midlands Trains, so the "fast trains" have to make too many stops.

The south end of the route is only half of the problem.

The north end is equally capacity constrained with the two tracks through Market Harborough, numerous conflicting moves through Leicester and Derby, and the Trent Junction complex. No point having lots of EMT paths at the south end if they all come to a juddering halt at Wigston Jn.
 

edwin_m

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The south end of the route is only half of the problem.

The north end is equally capacity constrained with the two tracks through Market Harborough, numerous conflicting moves through Leicester and Derby, and the Trent Junction complex. No point having lots of EMT paths at the south end if they all come to a juddering halt at Wigston Jn.
I think the current number of 4TPH north of Kettering is sufficient - as suggested above there isn't any need for Derby and Nottingham to have more than two each, one fast and one semi-fast to serve the main intermediate stations. HS2 will eventually take away most of the London-Sheffield and some of the London-Derby/Nottingham journeys, providing room for passenger growth within broadly the same service pattern but with the fasts running to Nottingham and Derby and the semi-fasts serving Sheffield and Toton.
 

Kettledrum

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I think the current number of 4TPH north of Kettering is sufficient - as suggested above there isn't any need for Derby and Nottingham to have more than two each, one fast and one semi-fast to serve the main intermediate stations. HS2 will eventually take away most of the London-Sheffield and some of the London-Derby/Nottingham journeys, providing room for passenger growth within broadly the same service pattern but with the fasts running to Nottingham and Derby and the semi-fasts serving Sheffield and Toton.

I wouldn't say that Derby and Nottingham do have one fast and one semi fast...more like one slow and one very slow - particularly in peak times, although as other posters have said, it's better at other times of the day.

If you travel down from Nottingham to London in peak times, your journey time will be between 1 hour 49 and one hour 57. That's 126 miles at an average speed of 66 mph. Definately not fast at all.

I've just looked at the peak timetable for tomorrow. If you travel down to London in peak times from Derby your journey time is likely to be between one hour 40 and one hour 50. That's an average speed of 73 mph. The fastest Derby peak service runs at an average of 77 mph, and outside the peaks the fastest services can run at 85 mph. (Without all the Northamptonshire commuter stops),

For comparison, the fast peak time trains from Tamworth to London both run at an average speed of 100 mph.
and the peak time trains from Doncaster to Kings Cross run at an average of 88 mph (the fastest runs at 96 mph)
All the peak time trains from Grantham to Kings Cross also run at an average of 89 mph

One reason is the lack of paths for the MML, so the four paths that EMT do have for services north of Corby have to stop more often. The other reasons are the various slower curves due to the lack of upgrades to the Victorian track alignments.

Is this better than under BR - Yes definatly in my view
Does this merit the tag of a Cinderella line - Yes.
Could it be better with more paths - probably.

Thank goodness for HS2.
 

edwin_m

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Part of the problem here is that there are relatively few commuters from north of Leicester and business travel is a bit later than commuter travel, so the earlier services in the morning are more commuter-orientated. However in the evening everyone travels at about the same time, with the added problem that those going further don't always get a seat until later in the journey.

One of the things the truncation of electrification has ruled out is creative use of the future Corby fleet to do things like splitting/joining at Kettering to provide extra Leicester workings in the peaks. I suspect extra peak paths could be found north of Kettering if necessary, if only because the freight can't run due to lack of paths further south.
 

mrmatt

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It's triangulated from observations on the platform at Tamworth station and that at least one rail booking system shows the fastest time of getting to London Euston in the morning peak from Derby is by changing at Tamworth.

It's not just faster but can be significantly cheaper too. I'm traveling Euston to Derby via Tamworth next week as in the evening peak it can be done in ~2 hours for £28 instead of the £62 of EMT. Sure there is one train at £49 but that takes 2h 37m!

This new timetable has certainly provided very few decently fast services to Derby.
 

A0

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Part of the problem here is that there are relatively few commuters from north of Leicester and business travel is a bit later than commuter travel, so the earlier services in the morning are more commuter-orientated. However in the evening everyone travels at about the same time, with the added problem that those going further don't always get a seat until later in the journey.

One of the things the truncation of electrification has ruled out is creative use of the future Corby fleet to do things like splitting/joining at Kettering to provide extra Leicester workings in the peaks. I suspect extra peak paths could be found north of Kettering if necessary, if only because the freight can't run due to lack of paths further south.

Well it depends on the stock used - if the Corby's are confined to a dedicated fleet of EMUs - 379s or 350s then yes, you're right.

If EMT go for a fleet of bi-modes a la GWR's 8xx s then not necessarily - however, the splitting / joining creates a different problem, specifically ensuring you've got the right amount of seats. Logically you'll be looking at either 4 or 5 car units - you can't have longer and run multiples owing to platform lengths - and several stations already struggle with 9 car Meridian formations....

Better in some ways to segregate the Corby's into 8 car EMUs - 4 car 379s have 209 seats, so 418 in 8 car formations. A 4 car Meridian has 181 a 5 car has 242 - so a 9 car Meridian has a full 5 more seats than an 8 car 379.

So run all Corby's as 8 car EMUs, stop 2 'fast' EMTs / hour at Kettering ideally one Nottingham and one Sheffield which also call at Market Harborough to maintain northbound connectivity.

That way both Sheffield and Nottingham get one tph which runs fast from Leicester to London and one which has 2 stops en route - Kettering and Market Harborough.

Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton all gain a load of seats as they aren't trying to get onto Meridians which were 2/3rds full when they left Leicester.
 

hwl

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Well it depends on the stock used - if the Corby's are confined to a dedicated fleet of EMUs - 379s or 350s then yes, you're right.

If EMT go for a fleet of bi-modes a la GWR's 8xx s then not necessarily - however, the splitting / joining creates a different problem, specifically ensuring you've got the right amount of seats. Logically you'll be looking at either 4 or 5 car units - you can't have longer and run multiples owing to platform lengths - and several stations already struggle with 9 car Meridian formations....

Better in some ways to segregate the Corby's into 8 car EMUs - 4 car 379s have 209 seats, so 418 in 8 car formations. A 4 car Meridian has 181 a 5 car has 242 - so a 9 car Meridian has a full 5 more seats than an 8 car 379.

So run all Corby's as 8 car EMUs, stop 2 'fast' EMTs / hour at Kettering ideally one Nottingham and one Sheffield which also call at Market Harborough to maintain northbound connectivity.

That way both Sheffield and Nottingham get one tph which runs fast from Leicester to London and one which has 2 stops en route - Kettering and Market Harborough.

Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton all gain a load of seats as they aren't trying to get onto Meridians which were 2/3rds full when they left Leicester.
Why just 8 car? the plan looks like 12 car or equivalent given the need to provide faster than TL capacity from Bedford and Luton...
 

AM9

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Why just 8 car? the plan looks like 12 car or equivalent given the need to provide faster than TL capacity from Bedford and Luton...
Is that really a 'need' or a wish? Also what is the meaning of "... faster than TL capacity ..."?
 

edwin_m

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So run all Corby's as 8 car EMUs, stop 2 'fast' EMTs / hour at Kettering ideally one Nottingham and one Sheffield which also call at Market Harborough to maintain northbound connectivity.

That way both Sheffield and Nottingham get one tph which runs fast from Leicester to London and one which has 2 stops en route - Kettering and Market Harborough.

Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton all gain a load of seats as they aren't trying to get onto Meridians which were 2/3rds full when they left Leicester.
The issue I was trying to address is that the commuter load is too great for the semi-fasts so the peak fast trains make extra stops, thus the journey time for Leicester and beyond is worse in the peaks than off-peak. Having the Corby trains take the Wellingborough and Bedford passengers reduces this problem but may not entirely eliminate it.
 

A0

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The issue I was trying to address is that the commuter load is too great for the semi-fasts so the peak fast trains make extra stops, thus the journey time for Leicester and beyond is worse in the peaks than off-peak. Having the Corby trains take the Wellingborough and Bedford passengers reduces this problem but may not entirely eliminate it.

But is it? If 2 x 8 car units an hour started at Corby and served Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton is that really insufficient? Given they won't be arriving at Kettering 2/3rds full, unlike those coming from Leicester.

Assume that all current are 9 car Meridians (they aren't but it helps for this example) and they are 2/3rds full arriving from Leicester then you have 160 seats arriving at Kettering, multiply that by 4 - current peak TPH - and you've got 640 seats, compared to over 800 if you had 2 TPHs with 8 car EMUs - less any Corby passengers - and Corby currently has circa 300,000 passengers a year at present, so not a huge number compared to Kettering or Wellingborough.
 

edwin_m

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But is it? If 2 x 8 car units an hour started at Corby and served Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton is that really insufficient? Given they won't be arriving at Kettering 2/3rds full, unlike those coming from Leicester.

Assume that all current are 9 car Meridians (they aren't but it helps for this example) and they are 2/3rds full arriving from Leicester then you have 160 seats arriving at Kettering, multiply that by 4 - current peak TPH - and you've got 640 seats, compared to over 800 if you had 2 TPHs with 8 car EMUs - less any Corby passengers - and Corby currently has circa 300,000 passengers a year at present, so not a huge number compared to Kettering or Wellingborough.
Without detailed knowledge of the statistics we don't know what will happen on day 1 of the Corby service still less how it might change over a few years as people move to take advatage of the better train service. By limiting electrification to Kettering the flexibility is lost to do things like splitting and joining Corby and Leicester trains, unless someone produces a bi-mode that can multiple with a standard EMU or extra money is spent buying and operating bi-modes for Corby.
 

Kettledrum

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By limiting electrification to Kettering the flexibility is lost to do things like splitting and joining Corby and Leicester trains, unless someone produces a bi-mode that can multiple with a standard EMU or extra money is spent buying and operating bi-modes for Corby.

This would be really sensible and would also enable a northbound service from Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering to go straight through to Leicester and beyond without the disadvantage of using up one of the other valuable 4 paths for another slow and stopping train. Currently EMT do split at least one Northbound peak time service at Kettering and there is a small time delay while this happens.

If the new franchisee orders new electric units for Corby and the new bi-modes from the same supplier, and from the same model family, is there any reason why they would not be able to operate coupled up?
 

ChiefPlanner

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This would be really sensible and would also enable a northbound service from Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering to go straight through to Leicester and beyond without the disadvantage of using up one of the other valuable 4 paths for another slow and stopping train. Currently EMT do split at least one Northbound peak time service at Kettering and there is a small time delay while this happens.

If the new franchisee orders new electric units for Corby and the new bi-modes from the same supplier, and from the same model family, is there any reason why they would not be able to operate coupled up?

Do not make it too difficult..there are shed loads of good , quite new air con EMU's available for a wonderful Corby type service. Could be some great negotiations there with the ROSCO's on price as a buyers market.

It is this half hourly Market Harborough to Leicester market that gets me - yes I know it is a good catchment area and all that , maybe it should be 2 trains an hour ...trains an hour "best fit" ....(i.e on the slows or semi's), with some peak quality fast calls. ?
 
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