Northern's Problems in the North West

[Bletchleyite]

The public have been communicated to, the reasons for all this have been released and discussed at length, especially on this and other threads. Until all parties have a recovery plan firmly in place there's probably little else to say at this stage

I do think they should give a realistic timescale so people can plan, e.g. other modes, perhaps planning ahead a taxi share or hiring a car for a suitable period.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And the reason is privatisation. Network Rail's debt is now government debt, and they don't like that. So he wants to farm off the expensive track maintenance. He cannot privatise network rail due to rail-tracks failings so he will farm it off to the TOCs and call it vertical integration.
Therefore any mud he can make stick to Network Rail, he will in a cynical attempt to tarnish their public reputation and bolster support for his privatisation plans.

Getting private money into Network Rail isn't at all the same thing as privatising maintenance.
They want private investment in NR's enhancement projects, not to do the day job.

 

[northwichcat]

Or put another way....it's another example of the franchise being micromanaged by the DFT.

In fairness to DfT as staff will receive TUPE when they are transferred to the next franchise they have to ensure current franchises don't give an unsustainable pay rise in the final few months of a franchise to prevent industrial action. I'm sure someone said a franchise did that in the past - I think it may have been Arriva Trains Northern.

 

[47421]

"The public have been communicated to, the reasons for all this have been released and discussed at length, especially on this and other threads. Until all parties have a recovery plan firmly in place there's probably little else to say at this stage"

This comment reeks of complacency. When the revised c2c timetable went wrong a few years ago c2c activated a directors blog and published regular updates with precise details of what they were doing (yes I know c2c is unusual as it is so self-contained etc etc). If they had a modicum of self-respect the directors of Arriva Trains Northern would be putting out statements saying what the problem is in detail, eg late finishing of electrification work at Blackpool resulted in a training backlog and we do not have enough drivers with route knowledge. Training drivers means they are not available for their normal duties resulting in the current level of cancellations. [X number of drivers] are being trained every week. We expect to complete driver training by [X date] at which point we will increase the services again. Or something like that. This is the sort of thing that they must know and must be doing, why not publish it so passengers can see who (named individual) is taking responsibility, and progress can be tracked on an ongoing basis. Yes I know getting the right balance and level of detail is difficult as there are many underlying causes, but saying nothing is so weak.

The co-ordinated statements released earlier which start by referring to 1994 were embarrassing. It is urgent today and to deflect responsibility in that way was pretty grim in my view.

 

[Bantamzen]

I do think they should give a realistic timescale so people can plan, e.g. other modes, perhaps planning ahead a taxi share or hiring a car for a suitable period.

The more I read & hear about this situation, the less I'm convinced anyone could give timescales until they are more or less on top of it. It looks at the moment like it will be done in 2 week blocks, with a creeping recovery in each. Having said that, there is the slight matter of the Liverpool blockade which if suffers any slippage could be another banana skin for all.

 

[Moonshot]

In fairness to DfT as staff will receive TUPE when they are transferred to the next franchise they have to ensure current franchises don't give an unsustainable pay rise in the final few months of a franchise to prevent industrial action. I'm sure someone said a franchise did that in the past - I think it may have been Arriva Trains Northern.

In which case why bother with franchises at all? If the private sector operation is having its hands very tightly bound and not allowing the market forces to impact, we may as well be completely in the public sector. Which of course means pay restraint as per public sector policy.

 

[mpthomson]

This is why I can see Grayling making the grand gesture of stripping Arriva of the franchise, as thats what all the poorly informed public want, he'll make a hard line statement in the commons about Arriva 'getting it wrong' and then he and the DfT will be off the hook because he's done something.

The cancellations etc will of course continue, but will be excused then as someone has been blamed, heads have rolled, and it'll be assumed that whoever takes over will be 'better'

That's not going to happen.

Firstly, who is going to take it on? The DOR option isn't viable as they'll look equally as hopeless instantly as the problems are long term and not 'quick-fixable', if it was, it would have been done.

Secondly, even for a politician that's just grandstanding too much and he and the party know that.

Thirdly, what's needed is some hard work by both provider and commissioner, ie Arriva and DfT/NR to bring solutions closer and some stability, rather than just throwing everything into the air and seeing where it lands (not quite that but you get my point).

I suspect it's a strong possibility that Arriva will lose the franchise when next awarded though.

 

[northwichcat]

In which case why bother with franchises at all? If the private sector operation is having its hands very tightly bound and not allowing the market forces to impact, we may as well be completely in the public sector. Which of course means pay restraint as per public sector policy.

That's a question to ask the unions, allowing market forces to apply would mean removing revenue share and revenue support. Train crews benefit from franchises getting revenue support if they perform less well than envisaged - without revenue support TOCs would be forced to freeze pay or worse. Yet they don't like revenue share meaning it's the government and shareholders who benefit when a TOC does better than expected.

 

[Moonshot]

That's a question to ask the unions, allowing market forces to apply would mean removing revenue share and revenue support. Train crew's benefit from franchises getting revenue support if they perform less well than envisaged - without revenue support TOCs would be forced to freeze pay or worse. Yet they don't like revenue share meaning it's the government and shareholders who benefit when a TOC does better than expected.

So in reality, as far as rail staff are concerned, we are actually better off under a franchise system ...you would have to wonder why rail unions actually want us under direct state control.

 

[TrW]

The public have been communicated to.

Northern have explained what has happened and that they are working on it. .

These snippets seem to sum up well the arrogance of the operator and quite frankly the short comings with their approach to corporate communications.

 

[northwichcat]

So in reality, as far as rail staff are concerned, we are actually better off under a franchise system ...you would have to wonder why rail unions actually want us under direct state control.

Being able to call nationwide strikes is probably high up on their agenda.

 

[Moonshot]

Being able to call nationwide strikes is probably high up on their agenda.

Indeed it is....and you would have to wonder if unions would accept a deal to renationalised TOCs if the caveat was on the condition that strikes were not allowed.

 

[furnessvale]

So in reality, as far as rail staff are concerned, we are actually better off under a franchise system ...you would have to wonder why rail unions actually want us under direct state control.

It has been obvious from the early days of privatisation that rail staff have benefitted from leapfrogging wages as TOCs poached staff from each other rather than have national rates of pay.

A look at the political utterances of union leaders show their true objectives to be class war and state ownership, rather than any desire to further their members' interests.

 

[Moonshot]

It has been obvious from the early days of privatisation that rail staff have benefitted from leapfrogging wages as TOCs poached staff from each other rather than have national rates of pay.

A look at the political utterances of union leaders show their true objectives to be class war and state ownership, rather than any desire to further their members' interests.

I wouldn't disagree with that. The sooner members wakeup to that fact the better.

 

[northwichcat]

A look at the political utterances of union leaders show their true objectives to be class war and state ownership, rather than any desire to further their members' interests.

And what they fail to realise is both the leaders and many of their members earn too much to be considered working class, so really they are now the middle class who prevent the genuine working class easily going about their usual business whenever they call a strike.

 

[driver_m]

And what they fail to realise is both the leaders and many of their members earn too much to be considered working class, so really they are now the middle class who prevent the genuine working class easily going about their usual business whenever they call a strike.

So I'm other words we should know our place? As long as my union continues to represent mine and my colleagues interests, what you lot think here is irrelevant. You lot sound like you want a class war, the way you keep dragging this back to union matters when it's purely down to company and government meltdown. Unions seem to have learnt from the 1970s but it seems it's critics haven't.

 

[Moonshot]

So I'm other words we should know our place? As long as my union continues to represent mine and my colleagues interests, what you lot think here is irrelevant. You lot sound like you want a class war, the way you keep dragging this back to union matters when it's purely down to company and government meltdown. Unions seem to have learnt from the 1970s but it seems it's critics haven't.

What exactly have unions learned from the 1970s?

 

[northwichcat]

So I'm other words we should know our place? As long as my union continues to represent mine and my colleagues interests, what you lot think here is irrelevant. You lot sound like you want a class war, the way you keep dragging this back to union matters when it's purely down to company and government meltdown. Unions seem to have learnt from the 1970s but it seems it's critics haven't.

Lessons have been learnt from the 1970s by some. Prospect is a 21st century trade union but the RMT are still stuck in the 1970s, ASLEF are somewhere between the two.

 

[PR1Berske]

And what they fail to realise is both the leaders and many of their members earn too much to be considered working class, so really they are now the middle class who prevent the genuine working class easily going about their usual business whenever they call a strike.

Exactly what has been said on the DOO thread. At a time when hard pressed passengers are already suffering, a Union should be on their side, not making inconvenience worse!

 

[RickSanchez]

Does salary alone determine class?

 

[northwichcat]

Does salary alone determine class?

Skill level comes in to as well but I don't imagine drivers or guards will claim they do a low skilled job.

 

[driver_m]

Is this about Northern's Troubles or are we going to have yet another tiresome thread about unions, when they aren't at the heart of this problem? I'll debate the rubbish spouted on here about the unions all day, but I'm sure many others don't want to. So take it to the various DOO threads

 

[RickSanchez]

Skill level comes in to as well but I don't imagine drivers or guards will claim they do a low skilled job.

How do you measure skill? Every occupation has there own yardstick

Some are unilaterally recognised e.g a surgeon but others are very subjective and usually people tend to have an over inflated sense of self worth

Making this about a class war detracts from the point that passengers be they upper, middle or lower class are suffering

Unions are there to protect and enhance members rights

Arriva is there to provide a train service

Dft and network rail dictate to a large extent the service that can be run

In terms of social strata the north suffers adversely compared to the south in terms of investment and priority.

GWR upgrades circa 10bn
Northern in its entirety circa 1billion

Class may be one facet but I personally don’t think it is between drivers/staff and the travelling public I believe it is more entrenched in the north/south divide

I also agree that communication and regular updates should be forthcoming even if they state nothing has changed in the intervening 24/48hours as information black holes just raise speculation/anxiety and promote conspiracy theories

 

[RickSanchez]

Is this about Northern's Troubles or are we going to have yet another tiresome thread about unions, when they aren't at the heart of this problem? I'll debate the rubbish spouted on here about the unions all day, but I'm sure many others don't want to. So take it to the various DOO threads

I agree with you, this should be about the current problems not the historic or perceived problems and union bashing

Also the blaming of various parties doesn’t remedy the situation, solutions are required now, culpability can be decided when service is restored

 

[northwichcat]

How do you measure skill? Every occupation has there own yardstick

Unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled is the usual broad categories. A train cleaner would be unskilled, a ticket office clerk would be semi-skilled and a train driver would be skilled.

 

[RickSanchez]

Unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled is the usual broad categories. A train cleaner would be unskilled, a ticket office clerk would be semi-skilled and a train driver would be skilled.

Broad categories indeed and I am sure many would disagree

 

[northwichcat]

Broad categories indeed and I am sure many would disagree

If many disagree then many will end up disagreeing with what the government thinks are skilled migrants post-Brexit.

 

[RickSanchez]

If many disagree then many will end up disagreeing with what the government thinks are skilled migrants post-Brexit.

Maybe not so much what are skilled as opposed to what skills are in demand or under supplied in the current uk workforce....a major distinction

 

[geoffk]

Depots involved are Blackpool, Blackburn, Wigan, Lime Street, Victoria, Buxton and Leeds. At some depots only some drivers cover Blackpool in their link meaning not all drivers at the depot will need to sign the route. All in all I would say 400 could actually be on the low side.

Why Buxton?

 

[Moonshot]

Getting back on topic, it's seems that things are calming down now and getting a bit more reliable