Northern's Problems in the North West

[B&I]

At least by mentioning the date of the death of George Hudson, it shows that you saw the phrase "The Railway Mania" in my posting, which was made about your posting comment that totally ignored the historical growth of railways in Britain that was based upon on funds from investors, not from any Government.

It was nothing whatsoever about commenting on styles of management, either in historical terms or in current terms.

It doesn't really matter how often you compare 21st century railways to the mid-Victorian era. It will not make the comparison any more apt or relevant

 

[B&I]

This is the issue. They have enough drivers on the books, but they don't sign all routes. If the planned May 18 timetable had gone ahead there's a chance the training requirements wouldn't have been as drastic as they have been so some of it has been unplanned.

Fair enough. But it can't really be said there are enough drivers if they can't do the jobs they're needed for

 

[quantinghome]

At least by mentioning the date of the death of George Hudson, it shows that you saw the phrase "The Railway Mania" in my posting, which was made about your posting comment that totally ignored the historical growth of railways in Britain that was based upon on funds from investors, not from any Government.

It was nothing whatsoever about commenting on styles of management, either in historical terms or in current terms.

Funding sources in an era when there was no competition for inland freight don't provide many lessons for today's railway though. If passenger railways were inherently profitable then someone somewhere would be building them with private funds. The lesson is the same from beeching and serpell: if there is a profitable core of passenger services in the UK, it's pretty small and would require a lot more closures than rural branch lines.

 

[Moonshot]

Another person reluctant to address Northern's inability to employ enough staff. Tell me, why can't they just do that ?

Would you prefer a situation where collective bargaining was abandoned, and employees were left to fend for themselves ?

I ll just repeat what I said earlier, and that is the ability for a driver to voluntarily work his or her rest day as overtime is none of ASLEFS concern. And just to add to that point, whilst drivers have been observing the RDW ban , it actually hasn't stopped some of them working overtime as some are simply working 12 hour shifts on a normal working day

 

[Overspeed110]

I ll just repeat what I said earlier, and that is the ability for a driver to voluntarily work his or her rest day as overtime is none of ASLEFS concern. And just to add to that point, whilst drivers have been observing the RDW ban , it actually hasn't stopped some of them working overtime as some are simply working 12 hour shifts on a normal working day

What do you mean, "drivers have been observing the RDW ban?"
No drivers can be offered RDW as there is currently no agreement to do so!
You don't know what you're talking about!

 

[Rail Blues]

I ll just repeat what I said earlier, and that is the ability for a driver to voluntarily work his or her rest day as overtime is none of ASLEFS concern. And just to add to that point, whilst drivers have been observing the RDW ban , it actually hasn't stopped some of them working overtime as some are simply working 12 hour shifts on a normal working day

Regardless of the union ban, do you not think then that precarious situation where Northern are effectively reliant on drivers working their rest days is poor business practice? The baseline should be that they can cover normal operations accounting for sickness, seasonal variation, training or route learning with staff working their basic hours only. This is a situation wholly of the TOC's making in my view.

 

[nedchester]

Heard on the grapevine that northern have made an offer to ASLEF for a RDW agreement but ASLEF won't consider it unless it is bundled up with other stuff that they want i.e. pay talks/loyalty payment/changes to conditions etc. I imagine they will want £40 an hour or so, similar to TPE RDW agreement. They are in a very strong position at the moment and they are only concerned about their members and getting the best deal possible for them.

I think I’ve mentioned before that ASLEF apparently wanted £100 just to sign on on a rest day plus any enhanced rate. Northern understandably told them to shove it. As one long serving railwayman put it to me that smacks of opportunism and greed.

 

[driver_m]

Have you got proof of that £100 ''demand'? I suspect not, all you're trying to do here is entrench anti-union sentiment on here .

 

[jayah]

Interesting. This from the Labour List here. Mind you it is nearly a year old.

https://labourlist.org/2017/07/the-top-corbyn-allies-who-won-financial-backing-from-the-rmt-union/

This is the full list of Labour MPs who received donations, or donations in kind, from the RMT union, according to the new entry in the Register of Members’ Interests. The union is not affiliated to Labour but its gifts follow bouts of speculation that it could rejoin the ranks of official backers of the party.

Diane Abbott, shadow home secretary and MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington – £2,500

Jeremy Corbyn, Labour leader and MP for Islington North – £5,000

Kelvin Hopkins, MP for Luton North – £5,000

Ian Lavery, party chair and MP for Wansbeck – £5,000

Clive Lewis, MP for Norwich South – £3,000

Rebecca Long-Bailey, shadow business, industrial strategy and energy secretary and MP for Salford and Eccles – £4,600

Andy McDonald, shadow transport secretary and MP for Middlesbrough – £4,000

John McDonnell, shadow chancellor and MP for Hayes and Harlington – amount unknown.

Ian Mearns, MP for Gateshead – £8,000

Grahame Morris, MP for Easington – £4,000

Teresa Pearce, MP for Erith and Thamesmead – £2,500

Angela Rayner, shadow education secretary and MP for Ashton-under-Lyne – £4,000

Cat Smith, shadow minister for voter engagement and youth affairs and MP for Lancaster and Fleetwood – £5,000

Jo Stevens, MP for Cardiff Central – £2,500

And jcollins put a link earlier to an RMT press release here
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-aligns-towards-labour-whilst30618/
which contains the following
"In contrast there is a clear desire amongst RMT members to support Jeremy Corbyn and the left leadership of the Labour Party and that is why we are now be putting in place other concrete steps to throw the weight of the RMT behind supporting the socialist advances that have been made in the Labour Party, this will include aligning ourselves towards Labour, encouraging members to be active in Labour and allowing our Branches and Regions to fund Labour candidates."

So if it is correct, Moonshot, I look forward to hearing that you have withdrawn your membership.

Meanwhile, Moonshot, I hope you will be able to do a straw poll by talking to some of these happy passengers that you see pouring in and out of Victoria and ask them for their views on the reliability of the services and whether it has had any major affect on lives so far. You will also be able to verbally assure them as a representative of Northern that there is really not much wrong and it will all be much better in future. Please tell us what their reaction is

And that is just the RMT! The Mayor of Greater Manchester is among the recipients from ASLEF. So when you are wondering why local politicians seem quiet on rail disruption, except on calls to renationalise there is your answer.

These militant unions with their strikes and overtime bans have a clearly stated interest in renationalisation which they are waging by using every means at their disposal to ensure franchising fails. So far it is proving very successful. The traveling public of the NW are collateral damage.

 

[Rail Blues]

I think I’ve mentioned before that ASLEF wanted £100 just to sign on on a rest day plus any enhanced rate. Northern understandably told them to shove it. As one long serving railwayman put it to me that smacks of opportunism and greed.

Source?

The irony of this is that the free market that the union basher on here are so keen to trumpet has put drivers in a position of economics strength as they've now got a plethora of employers they can sell their labour to and demand favourable terms and conditions and the TOCs seem adverse to investing in training drivers in themselves in the numbers required. However folk seem to get sniffy about this when the outcome is skilled and trained working class folk getting decent pay.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What impact would closing down the MID CHESHIRE line have on the roads? Isn't it true that there are wider economic benefits from running a train service with a subsidy?

That's exactly how the current system works.
The Mid Cheshire line, and nearly all of Northern's network, is subsidised by the DfT in the franchise agreement.
Northern's aim is to turn a profit on the overall operation, subsidy included (with the franchise won in competition with other bidders).
DfT's aim is to reduce the subsidy over time, partly by reducing the costs, and partly by investment and increasing revenue.
Government policy over staffing and job types, and for that matter new trains, is also part of the process.

 

[driver_m]

And that is just the RMT! The Mayor of Greater Manchester is among the recipients from ASLEF. So when you are wondering why local politicians seem quiet on rail disruption, except on calls to renationalise there is your answer.

These militant unions with their strikes and overtime bans have a clearly stated interest in renationalisation which they are waging by using every means at their disposal to ensure franchising fails. So far it is proving very successful. The traveling public of the NW are collateral damage.

Oh look, let's play right-wing bingo
Let's start off with.......

Militant unions. ✓
Strikes ✓

Eyes down everyone. Playing for a line or a full house?

Barons, Ransom, hard working families, Nurses, let's get them all in!

 

[jayah]

This is the issue. They have enough drivers on the books, but they don't sign all routes. If the planned May 18 timetable had gone ahead there's a chance the training requirements wouldn't have been as drastic as they have been so some of it has been unplanned.

The fact is that the structure of labour relations on the railway is so inflexible that it is practically impossible to accommodate any significant change. At any one time a handful of TOCs are unable to run the advertised Sunday service, and that is without planning for serious changes like new routes and stock.

 

[jayah]

Oh look, let's play right-wing bingo
Let's start off with.......

Militant unions. ✓
Strikes ✓

Eyes down everyone. Playing for a line or a full house?

Barons, Ransom, hard working families, Nurses, let's get them all in!

How many strike ballots have the RMT got open at the moment on the railways?

 

[driver_m]

The fact is that the structure of labour relations on the railway is so inflexible that it is practically impossible to accommodate any significant change. At any one time a handful of TOCs are unable to run the advertised Sunday service, and that is without planning for serious changes like new routes and stock.

Funny that, we managed just fine during the intro of pendos and the red revolution timetable. But of course, that'll have nothing to do with the unions will it?

 

[nedchester]

Have you got proof of that £100 ''demand'? I suspect not, all you're trying to do here is entrench anti-union sentiment on here .

Heard it from a number of sources.

Yes, it may well entrench the anti-union lobby. I myself am not anti-union having been in the past a union rep.

There are a number of reasons for this fiasco but the RDW issue is certainly a factor.

 

[jayah]

Funny that, we managed just fine during the intro of pendos and the red revolution timetable. But of course, that'll have nothing to do with the unions will it?

This was 15? years ago.

 

[Moonshot]

What do you mean, "drivers have been observing the RDW ban?"
No drivers can be offered RDW as there is currently no agreement to do so!
You don't know what you're talking about!

I know exactly what I'm talking about.....and you can dress it up in whatever words you want , but the fact remains that drivers are not working rest days. The lack of a RDW agreement ( which shouldnt really exist in the first place imo ) has stopped drivers who are perfectly happy to work overtime voluntarily the opportunity to earn some extra cash.

 

[driver_m]

Jayah first. I'm not in RMT so I've no idea. I'm sure you do though. (Ps never been on strike....I'm SO militant!)

Nedchester. That's hearsay then. If you're going to come out with that, I could equally fire back with the rumour of the cost difference that's going round between solving the crisis, and the cost of putting up with it. But again, it's hearsay, so I won't .

 

[driver_m]

This was 15? years ago.

Yes. And the union rules if anything have become more restrictive to us since then. So go on, furnish me with the reasons why unions stop big changes happening......I'll be here all day.

 

[Moonshot]

I think I’ve mentioned before that ASLEF wanted £100 just to sign on on a rest day plus any enhanced rate. Northern understandably told them to shove it. As one long serving railwayman put it to me that smacks of opportunism and greed.

I rather doubt that ....but ASLEF have been pushing for various other things such as harmonisation of terms and conditions which haven't happened.

 

[AndrewE]

It's true, I do struggle a bit to see what the problem is when you're just sitting down. If roads to/from stations bother you, can't you just read a book or listen to music like other people?

You have clearly never suffered from motion sickness (or paid attention to any of the descriptions or research on it - or are just ignoring other people's problems.) I suggest you read the Wikipedia entry, but if you can't be bothered, here is a quote:

A specific form of motion sickness, car sickness, is quite common and evidenced by intolerance for reading a map or book during travel. Car sickness results from the sensory conflict arising in the brain from differing sensory inputs. Motion sickness is caused by a conflict between signals arriving in the brain from the inner ear, which forms the base of the vestibular system, the sensory apparatus that deals with movement and balance, and which detects motion mechanically. If someone is looking at a stationary object within a vehicle, such as a magazine, their eyes will inform their brain that what they are viewing is not moving. Their inner ears, however, will contradict this by sensing the motion of the vehicle...

(my bold) so your advice to read a book on a bus would be pretty unhelpful, but I suspect that sufferers will be better informed than you are anyway.
A train journey generally is smooth and doesn't wriggle around en route, which is why people are prepared to pay more to go by train. A bus journey calling at all stations invariably involves a lot more vibration plus lots of turns in and out of small streets and, to add insult to injury, still costs you the train fare!

 

[B&I]

And that is just the RMT! The Mayor of Greater Manchester is among the recipients from ASLEF. So when you are wondering why local politicians seem quiet on rail disruption, except on calls to renationalise there is your answer.

These militant unions with their strikes and overtime bans have a clearly stated interest in renationalisation which they are waging by using every means at their disposal to ensure franchising fails. So far it is proving very successful. The traveling public of the NW are collateral damage.

If anyone is doing anything to wreck franchising and push the cause for renationalisation, it is the TOCs and the DfT. Anyone who pretends otherwise is, deliberately or not, engaged in deflection

 

[Camden]

I think it's a great shame as to what's happening on Northern at the moment, as for a fleeting moment it was a rapidly improving network for the people who matter - its passengers.

The argument to the government to invest in the network and its resources appeared to have been won in the areas it needed to most, in order to allow the government to reduce subsidy while driving passenger numbers ever higher through better and more cost-effective services.

Unfortunately we are back to the railways being torn between competing interests, which in turn will only put government off from making the incremental long term investments necessary to keep the improvement momentum up. No matter what is conceded, more will be asked for, dispute will be made to arise. Meanwhile, companies profit.

When the technological advances arrive to make most staff redundant, there will be little complaint from outside the staff component.

 

[jayah]

If anyone is doing anything to wreck franchising and push the cause for renationalisation, it is the TOCs and the DfT. Anyone who pretends otherwise is, deliberately or not, engaged in deflection

What people don't seem to realise is that if it is renationalised, BR or whatever it becomes, will still have an unworkable Labour relations model and the same unions bank rolling the Labour Party will move on to trying to insource bin collections and bring schools back under LEA control. It's not like we haven't seen this film before.

 

[jayah]

Yes. And the union rules if anything have become more restrictive to us since then. So go on, furnish me with the reasons why unions stop big changes happening......I'll be here all day.

It has already been mentioned here that on Northern, despite having a 4 day week on a 35hr contract which is an 8.75hr working day, when training drivers have a 7hr maximum.

This means from Buxton or Leeds there is scarcely time to get to Blackpool to conduct route learning before having to leave again.

 

[nedchester]

The irony of this is that the free market that the union basher on here are so keen to trumpet has put drivers in a position of economics strength as they've now got a plethora of employers they can sell their labour to and demand favourable terms and conditions and the TOCs seem adverse to investing in training drivers in themselves in the numbers required. However folk seem to get sniffy about this when the outcome is skilled and trained working class folk getting decent pay.

I don't disagree with any of this. That is the problem with the privatised railway and there is no doubt that many rail worked have done rather well out of it which begs the question as to why unions such as the RMT want renationalisation?

However, that is a debate for another thread.

 

[Polarbear]

Looking at the Northern website today, (and media reports over the last few days), I see much mention of temporary timetables coming into effect. However, unless I'm missing something, I can't seem to find them on line?

 

[nedchester]

Looking at the Northern website today, (and media reports over the last few days), I see much mention of temporary timetables coming into effect. However, unless I'm missing something, I can't seem to find them on line?

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

The timetables coming into full effect on Monday. Note that in the above link the amendments to services around Liverpool (due to the blockade) are on their website

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...liverpool-lime-street-to-manchester-and-wigan

However, these have also been further amended from that published here (you can see these new amendments at RTT/OTT)

 

[josh-j]

^ They're listed at the bottom of the page here:

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/temporary-timetables

Or under the individual station information pages, when you click "New timetables from 4 June" (slightly confusingly the old timetables show up by default).