Northern's Problems in the North West

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the random cancellations, presumably the drivers turns that aren't covered, will make much sense to passengers.

At least with the emergency timetable they can plan for them. But if there were really 400 cancellations today, I'd suggest they have not gone far enough, and they need to probably cancel 450 in the emergency timetable to ensure it is totally robust.

 

[jayah]

At least with the emergency timetable they can plan for them. But if there were really 400 cancellations today, I'd suggest they have not gone far enough, and they need to probably cancel 450 in the emergency timetable to ensure it is totally robust.

Southern found that many of the cancellations are caused by staff not being able to move around to work trains. You may only need to cut half that number to right the ship.

 

[trainophile]

That’s the thing though, it might not be forgotten about.

If you alienate enough of your customers often enough some of them just won’t come back.

Except for those who don't drive and will remain beholden to public transport. I feel sorry for anyone in that position who has already booked a break at the Lake District, only to now find they may not be able to get there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except for those who don't drive and will remain beholden to public transport. I feel sorry for anyone in that position who has already booked a break at the Lake District, only to now find they may not be able to get there.

Some may decline to go due to that insidious British hate for buses and coaches. But under the emergency TT the branch will be bustituted, and therefore reliable.

 

[Moonshot]

A great many Labour MPs take money from the RMT at an individual level.

I'm sorry, but have you got proof of that? Because if you have, I will be withdrawing my membership

 

[trainophile]

Some may decline to go due to that insidious British hate for buses and coaches. But under the emergency TT the branch will be bustituted, and therefore reliable.

So long as they are proper buses/coaches, i.e. with the capacity for luggage. Many people will take a medium to large size suitcase if they have booked a week away.

 

[30907]

Absolutely shocking that one of the easiest lines to operate (literally could just be a shuttle) is being pulled, especially during the summer months.

For two weeks, according to Northern, and in early June not the summer peak, when IME passenger loadings are usually moderate and the roads not too congested. I'd be concerned if it went into high season or affected weekends, though.

 

[PR1Berske]

This is not Northern's "Ratner Moment"..............but it's darn well close.

 

[AndrewE]

In that part of the world most of the MPs are on the payroll of RMT / ASLEF.

A great many Labour MPs take money from the RMT at an individual level.

There is no problem with that as they are supposed to be looking after the interests of most of us, however most Tories are being bankrolled by financially-interested parties/persons who are definitely not interested in the public good (and if you don't or can't believe or accept that you should be reading Private Eye.)

So long as they are proper buses/coaches, i.e. with the capacity for luggage. Many people will take a medium to large size suitcase if they have booked a week away.

And if you were planning a trip with a bike, tough?

 

[jayah]

I'm sorry, but have you got proof of that? Because if you have, I will be withdrawing my membership

The Register of Members interests for Jeremy Corbyn (and many others) is publicly available for your enlightenment.

 

[jayah]

There is no problem with that as they are supposed to be looking after the interests of most of us, however most Tories are being bankrolled by financially-interested parties/persons who are definitely not interested in the public good (and if you don't or can't believe or accept that you should be reading Private Eye.)
And if you were planning a trip with a bike, tough?

Makes it a bit awkward when it is clear that the inability of Northern to run a service is in no small part down to the 35hr week, 7hr training days and collectively negotiated agreement to offer and take overtime that are causing the problems.

See how long your local petrol station stays open when it is operating in such a framework.

 

[Moonshot]

Makes it a bit awkward when it is clear that the inability of Northern to run a service is in no small part down to the 35hr week, 7hr training days and collectively negotiated agreement to offer and take overtime that are causing the problems.

See how long your local petrol station stays open when it is operating in such a framework.

Are you saying that ASLEF should have absolutely no say whatsoever in dictating to both Northern and their own driver membership when or if they can work overtime by their own choice?

 

[The_Engineer]

But under the emergency TT the branch will be bustituted, and therefore reliable.

Say! Why don't we run no trains at all, then they will all be reliable!!

 

[PR1Berske]

Say! Why don't we run no trains at all, then they will all be reliable!!

"We ran 100% of our 0 trains on time which cause a paradox and now a wormhole has eaten the East Lancs Line."

 

[Robertj21a]

Except for those who don't drive and will remain beholden to public transport. I feel sorry for anyone in that position who has already booked a break at the Lake District, only to now find they may not be able to get there.

You've lost me. Why can't they now get there ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is not Northern's "Ratner Moment"..............but it's darn well close.

To be fair, they haven't *said* it's rubbish, it just is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if you were planning a trip with a bike, tough?

If it's coaches a bike can probably go underneath, the Oxford-Cambridge X5 offers that service. But TBH if you're going on a cycling holiday you can probably cope with cycling Oxenholme-Windermere, it's not *that* far and on the lanes quite a pleasant ride.

 

[BlueFox]

But TBH if you're going on a cycling holiday you can probably cope with cycling Oxenholme-Windermere, it's not *that* far and on the lanes quite a pleasant ride.

Not very convenient if you've got suitcases though. You'd have to leave the bike at Oxenholme, take your luggage on the bus, then go back for the bike.

 

[jayah]

Are you saying that ASLEF should have absolutely no say whatsoever in dictating to both Northern and their own driver membership when or if they can work overtime by their own choice?

In any normal relationship they would negotiate only the rate of pay and the balance between how much overtime is contractural and discretionary. You certainly would not have a no RDW policy when there is plenty of work on, let alone on a ludicrous 35hr contract.

 

[AndrewE]

Makes it a bit awkward when it is clear that the inability of Northern to run a service is in no small part down to the 35hr week, 7hr training days and collectively negotiated agreement to offer and take overtime that are causing the problems.
See how long your local petrol station stays open when it is operating in such a framework.

Has the 35 hr week just been sprung on Northern? The petrol station doesn't have Hidden-type shift length aand frequency/rest controls (would you like to see them abandoned?), and if it had planned its staffing as badly as Northern (or the DfT controlling the franchise) has then it would deserve to go out of business. Also there are probably other fuel supply options for most motorists, apart from in the far north of Scotland. Unlike a train trip Carnforth to Arnside, which I abandoned a day or 2 ago...

If it's coaches a bike can probably go underneath, the Oxford-Cambridge X5 offers that service. But TBH if you're going on a cycling holiday you can probably cope with cycling Oxenholme-Windermere, it's not *that* far and on the lanes quite a pleasant ride.

True, but how about Lancaster to Barrow? Is the bike likely to be allowed on board in reality?

 

[Starmill]

Some may decline to go due to that insidious British hate for buses and coaches. But under the emergency TT the branch will be bustituted, and therefore reliable.

You do realise that rail replacement buses are often cancelled or delayed by bad traffic, broken down vehicles or unavailable drivers don't you?

 

[skifans]

I've noticed on the main page they have put that the temporary timetable will be until the end of July. But each of the individual pdfs is only until 8/9 of June, does this mean the plan is to introduce a new temporary timetable each week? Seems like an unnecessary pain for most commuters and anyone wanting to plan longer term, especially if they are only put on just before they start.

 

[AndrewE]

You've lost me. Why can't they now get there ?

They can get there (eventually) but instead of a timetabled journey by rail with connections they are into the hassle of "off the train, find the coach, load - not as easily as into a train & no toilets - then up every alley into station yards & back out again and finally get to your destination hours late." Can't you see that if someone has paid fro a train ticket they don't expect this sort of a journey?
If you are prone to travel sickness on a bus then this will definitely put you off booking a train ticket! I suggest you try Stoke to Crewe all stations on a bus: I've done it and shall not do it again!

 

[Moonshot]

In any normal relationship they would negotiate only the rate of pay and the balance between how much overtime is contractural and discretionary. You certainly would not have a no RDW policy when there is plenty of work on, let alone on a ludicrous 35hr contract.

Are you a driver yourself? Because if you are, I actually reckon you would be part of the silent majority simply because RDW is so valuable to the average driver.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I've noticed on the main page they have put that the temporary timetable will be until the end of July. But each of the individual pdfs is only until 8/9 of June, does this mean the plan is to introduce a new temporary timetable each week? Seems like an unnecessary pain for most commuters and anyone wanting to plan longer term, especially if they are only put on just before they start.

If it is anything like the temporary Blackpool North timetable which has been operating for a couple of months they will publish each week’s on the Friday evening. One note of caution though, the temporary Blackpool timetable, even though it has had a reduced number of services, has been a complete work of fiction. We’ll see next week whether that is the case here.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not very convenient if you've got suitcases though. You'd have to leave the bike at Oxenholme, take your luggage on the bus, then go back for the bike.

One way round that (and can someone please mention it locally) , is to have a handy man and van to shuttle heavy bags and bikes between the two stations. We did that at Hemel to Milton Keynes during main line blockades for WCML + also any disabled or similar frail passengers got (free) a proper taxi. (to destination)

 

[Robertj21a]

They can get there (eventually) but instead of a timetabled journey by rail with connections they are into the hassle of "off the train, find the coach, load - not as easily as into a train & no toilets - then up every alley into station yards & back out again and finally get to your destination hours late." Can't you see that if someone has paid fro a train ticket they don't expect this sort of a journey?
If you are prone to travel sickness on a bus then this will definitely put you off booking a train ticket! I suggest you try Stoke to Crewe all stations on a bus: I've done it and shall not do it again!

I've done numerous trips all over the country by bus. I can't see why it's a problem for most people, but I accept that some can't cope even over short distances. How do you already know that the coach will have no toilets ? - I wasn't even aware that it was definitely going to be a coach !

 

[Robertj21a]

If it is anything like the temporary Blackpool North timetable which has been operating for a couple of months they will publish each week’s on the Friday evening. One note of caution though, the temporary Blackpool timetable, even though it has had a reduced number of services, has been a complete work of fiction. We’ll see next week whether that is the case here.

Fortunately, the rail replacement bus service put on from Preston to Blackpool has been very good and reliable (as much as road congestion allows).

 

[mandub]

Are you saying that ASLEF should have absolutely no say whatsoever in dictating to both Northern and their own driver membership when or if they can work overtime by their own choice?

They've got no say from Monday.
For west drivers the emergency timetable means Northern can amend or cancel any jobs.
Once a job is amended the driver can then be moved 60 mins either way from their booked start times and be made to work up to 60 mins longer than their booked shift for the day (with a max total enforced overtime of 3hr 30 per week). If job is fully cancelled rather than amended by Northern you can be moved 90 mins and have to work up to 90 mins extra.

 

[AndrewE]

One way round that (and can someone please mention it locally) , is to have a handy man and van to shuttle heavy bags and bikes between the two stations. We did that at Hemel to Milton Keynes during main line blockades for WCML + also any disabled or similar frail passengers got (free) a proper taxi. (to destination)

...but that takes staff on the ground and just above with experience to know it's needed plus the authority to do it, something the railway doesn't seem to have any more. I was going to say "the gig economy railway," but that's not true, as I get the feeling that staff have secure employment and proper training. Just not enough of it, or enough experienced leaders on the ground. Having said that, the Paddington station TV programme does show them in a good light.