Northern's Problems in the North West

[Adlington]

According to the Manchester Evening News

A spokesman for Northern and Network Rail said: “In order to make space on the network for the thousands of extra services, the timing of all GTR and most Northern services had to be changed.

“All of these new journeys needed to be individually approved by Network Rail to ensure the national rail network runs safely and smoothly.

“Unfortunately, as a result of the sheer number of changes required and the late running of some engineering improvements, the process took longer than anticipated, approvals for service changes were delayed and some timetable requests were changed.

“Whilst circumstances differ across the country, this meant that train companies had much less time to prepare for the new timetable which required trains and drivers to run on different routes.

“The differences between the timetables submitted and those approved created a requirement for training that had not been anticipated.

“This meant that the necessary specialist training was not able to be completed in time for drivers to learn new routes and for operators to address all the logistical challenges.”

 

[hwl]

According to the Manchester Evening News

A very edited version of this mornings NR / GTR / Northern Joint statement in full here:
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....orthern-apologises-for-may-timetable-troubles

 

[47802]

A very edited version of this mornings NR / GTR / Northern Joint statement in full here:
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....orthern-apologises-for-may-timetable-troubles

That doesn't cut it really, while all the above may be true, some senior people within the industry must have been aware what was going on , and as such why wasn't action taken sooner?

 

[jayah]

That doesn't cut it really, while all the above may be true, some senior people within the industry must have been aware what was going on , and as such why wasn't action taken sooner?

It really grates that the solution to crowding is automatically to run even more tiny trains.

Tiny trains cause congestion, clog the arteries and should be treated like a disease.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I dont do cryptic, I just do facts. I can safely tell you there are no plans to just have a shuttle service , whether you like it or not. I myself would use the train from my local station if it had a direct service. But it doesnt...so I drive.

I'm afraid you're wasting your time trying to convince Bletchleyite on this one. Despite the fact that countless surveys highlight that TPE passengers from Yorkshire (and beyond) to Manchester Airport would not use the train at all were it not for the through services they continue to insist that the solution is always a German or Swiss style timetable. And they also fail to mention that if TPE services terminated at Piccadilly instead of the Airport they would be in Piccadilly's platforms much longer in order to meet timetabling rules on turnround times for terminating services. Piccadilly simply does not have that sort of spare platform space available and it was much easier (ie cheaper, and significantly so) to double the Airport's platform count from 2 to 4 as demand for rail services has grown since the line opened. I wonder if their next suggestion will be to send TPE's Scottish services to Victoria...

 

[Bungle965]

Buses on the Windermere branch all day today.
Sam

 

[IanXC]

Things have never been perfect, but at the moment *any* delays/ disruption is going to be blamed on the changes (even those that were fairly typical before).

Even within a 5% tolerance, some things will go wrong daily, which will beg questions about "so you think its okay that MY train was cancelled" but the reality is that such things happened in the past, happen now and will continue to happen in the future.



I'm not suggesting we ban all cross-Manchester services (the infrastructure at Victoria would never cope with it!), but I do think that trying to arrange crew changes at Oxford Road etc seems dangerous.

But, even if we do have the same number of cross-Manchester services, we could do something about the knot of them. The new Northern franchise, with its "everywhere must have a direct link to Manchester Airport, and Bradford must have a direct link to everywhere" approach means that it'll be much harder to deal with disruption.

For example, the Calder Valley line will get an hourly Southport service, an hourly Liverpool service, an hourly Chester service and an hourly Manchester Airport service? Great for people who like direct services (and, I appreciate, some people will use a direct train who would be put off by having to change), but a nightmare to try to fit around everything else.

If you ran all Calder Valley services through to Wigan (with some continuing to Southport) then it'd be much easier to cope when things went wrong - if every Calder Valley train is fifteen minutes late then it'd matter less if they all ran through to Wigan than if they went through to four western destinations.

Similarly, you could run four CLC services per hour through to Manchester Airport (on top of four Ordsall Chord service to the Airport), at the expense of Cleethorpes/ Barrow, which would make a more resilient timetable in the event of any delays. But the tail wags the dog and the handful of people wanting to go from Cleethorpes/ Barrow to the Airport trump the idea of a simple timetable for most passengers.

That kind of thing. Maybe a regular service from the Stockport corridor (pick some from a list of Buxton, Hazel Grove, Stoke, Crewe, Alderley Edge, Greenford) to the Chorley corridor (Preston, Blackpool, Barrow, Windermere etc). I'm not asking for more trains, I'm not asking for more paths through Manchester, just to try to keep timetables simpler so that there are common "turn up and go" corridors that can deal with disruption better. Giving everywhere a direct hourly link to everywhere else isn't working.

(this said, I agree with your point that, until we get the staffing sorted out, its too early to fully condemn the new timetable)



The recent problems have been a great advert for simple light rail networks - trams in Sheffield/ Manchester seem to cope without disruptive crew changes at bottleneck stops or arguments about Rest Day Working. Similarly, the trams are run with simple routes, rather that trying to give every station a direct service to Media City/ Meadowhall etc. People seem to like simple frequent routes instead of providing a direct service between every pair of termini. Trams can also get back into regular service after disruption without the delays that trains are experiencing.

Light rail is looking more flexible than heavy, at the moment, rightly or wrongly.



It's impressive that removing the Scarborough - Liverpool service from the Piccadilly throat has freed up three paths per hour (in each direction), but the Chord seems a very expensive solution to that problem.

I've always thought this is one of the problems of the Greater Manchester timetable, a fixation on hourly services drives an unreliable product from a passenger perspective. Contrast this with West Yorkshire where the objective is much more often a half hourly service pattern. TfGM (and its predecessors) have always seemed much more interested in connectivity between specific station pairs, than WYCA (and its predecessors) who have been more interested in number of calls at stations.

 

[PR1Berske]

It really grates that the solution to crowding is automatically to run even more tiny trains.

Tiny trains cause congestion, clog the arteries and should be treated like a disease.

I get the point you're making (you've used the same phrase over on the P15/16 thread).

HOWEVER, the reality is what it is. Smaller or reduced workings have their place on the network (no TOC wants to be transporting empty air across branches). Unless and until the purchase of new stock comes into play, particularly financially, there are only so many options each TOC can use. Tiny trains are not a disease, they're a consequence of the current state of the network, more a symptom than an illness.

 

[daodao]

I'm afraid you're wasting your time trying to convince Bletchleyite on this one. Despite the fact that countless surveys highlight that TPE passengers from Yorkshire (and beyond) to Manchester Airport would not use the train at all were it not for the through services they continue to insist that the solution is always a German or Swiss style timetable. And they also fail to mention that if TPE services terminated at Piccadilly instead of the Airport they would be in Piccadilly's platforms much longer in order to meet timetabling rules on turnround times for terminating services. Piccadilly simply does not have that sort of spare platform space available and it was much easier (ie cheaper, and significantly so) to double the Airport's platform count from 2 to 4 as demand for rail services has grown since the line opened. I wonder if their next suggestion will be to send TPE's Scottish services to Victoria...

There is a need to cut back the number of trains using the ex-MSJ&A line though Piccadilly platforms 13/14 & Knott Mill/Deansgate stations. They should be confined to 12 paths/hour: 6 trains/hour for services from the ex-CLC Liverpool line (4 passenger/2 freight), 4 trains/hour from the Bolton/Wigan direction (preferably electric ones) and 2 trains/hour from Rochdale and beyond via the Ordsall chord, to maintain the Airport-West Yorkshire link. The new routing of 2 TPE trains/hour to the Airport via Victoria and this route is daft; these trains should revert to the previous route via Guide Bridge and terminate at Piccadilly in the ex-GC platforms.

 

[jamesst]

122 cancellations listed as of 8am today. Absolutely appalling.

 

[B&I]

Yesterday, the guard on a train and route which shall remain nameless announced ober the PA that, in a reflection of his / her personal feelings about Northern's services, she / he would not be checking ot selling tickets. This morning at Broad Green, all trains cancelled or indefinitely delayed in both directions and passengers asking how thry can get their season tickets refunded.

No doubt someone will be along to tell me in a moment that everything is wonderful, but from where I'm standing (currently on the platform at Broad Green) this is a service and company in meltdown, which has managed at a stroke to drive away any new custom it will have attracted after electrification. And nobody, from Boiled Egg Features down, seems to be doing anything at all about it

 

[absolutelymilk]

Is the Lime Street closure likely to give some respite as drivers/guards/trains won't be needed for that stretch? Or does it bring alternative problems?

 

[Moonshot]

122 cancellations listed as of 8am today. Absolutely appalling.

On the back of the announced cancelled services, have you altered your travel plans today?

 

[Moonshot]

Is the Lime Street closure likely to give some respite as drivers/guards/trains won't be needed for that stretch? Or does it bring alternative problems?

No. Because services are planned to start at Edge Hill as an example

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No. Because services are planned to start at Edge Hill as an example

No, starting from Huyton/South Parkway as of tomorrow.
There will be a limited local service to Lime St on the Huyton routes in some weeks.
No TPE west of Manchester.

 

[Moonshot]

No, starting from Huyton/South Parkway as of tomorrow.
There will be a limited local service to Lime St on the Huyton routes in some weeks.
No TPE west of Manchester.

I d better check that as it was showing edge hill on a roster I was looking at

 

[vidal]

122 cancellations listed as of 8am today. Absolutely appalling.

0830 and up to 169.

Good job things are improving then.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

0830 and up to 169.
Good job things are improving then.

Might it actually mean they are getting on top of the mismatch of trains and crews?
Cancellations ought to improve what's left of the service.
Looking for silver linings really.
Any formal "recovery plan" is bound to thin out the timetable anyway, in the short term.

 

[vidal]

It seems to be taking out huge swathes of the service though. Try getting from Manchester to anywhere on the old CLC in this evening's rush.

Its only a matter of time before something happens on a crush loaded platform or a member of staff is assaulted because someone's train is cancelled at the last moment.

 

[trainophile]

0714 Blackburn to Southport

This service was cancelled throughout due to a decision by the train operating company.

That’s a new one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Might it actually mean they are getting on top of the mismatch of trains and crews?
Cancellations ought to improve what's left of the service.
Looking for silver linings really.
Any formal "recovery plan" is bound to thin out the timetable anyway, in the short term.

It is better that they are cancelled in the morning than 5 minutes before departure. And yes, an emergency timetable will require thinning out. They might well get away with returning to the kind of frequencies in the pre-1998 timetable (e.g. Southport line was only hourly or thereabouts).

 

[underbank]

I myself would use the train from my local station if it had a direct service. But it doesnt...so I drive.

Well there is a direct service from my local station, but I've never actually been able to use it. Simply because I usually get early morning flights (7am to 9.30am) and the trains simply can't get me to the airport with enough time to go through check in/security/passport control etc. On the rare occasion I've gone with a later outbound flight, the return has arrived back late evening, again too late to allow time to pick up luggage etc before the last train home. So despite there being direct trains, I also drive. For a proper airport service, the trains need to arrive soon enough for the early morning departures (i.e. 5 am) and the last needs to be late enough for the late evening/delayed arrivals (i.e. 1 am). That's more likely to be achieved with shuttles rather than long distance direct trains.

 

[Moonshot]

Well there is a direct service from my local station, but I've never actually been able to use it. Simply because I usually get early morning flights (7am to 9.30am) and the trains simply can't get me to the airport with enough time to go through check in/security/passport control etc. On the rare occasion I've gone with a later outbound flight, the return has arrived back late evening, again too late to allow time to pick up luggage etc before the last train home. So despite there being direct trains, I also drive. For a proper airport service, the trains need to arrive soon enough for the early morning departures (i.e. 5 am) and the last needs to be late enough for the late evening/delayed arrivals (i.e. 1 am). That's more likely to be achieved with shuttles rather than long distance direct trains.

That will still leave the issue of getting from Piccadilly by train at 1 in the morning. But in any event, in line with the rest of the network, pax numbers have grown at airport station over the years.

 

[47802]

0830 and up to 169.

Good job things are improving then.

Might it actually mean they are getting on top of the mismatch of trains and crews?
Cancellations ought to improve what's left of the service.
Looking for silver linings really.
Any formal "recovery plan" is bound to thin out the timetable anyway, in the short term.

Obviously doesn't understand Sarcasm

It would clearly help if they were at least consistent in the trains they cancelled, on Tuesday going up the Cumbrian Coast on the 37 in the afternoon the following 68 service was cancelled but at least Sellafield workers were able to get that train, Wednesday the earlier train was cancelled but the later train ran, yesterday it looks as though both were cancelled so what the heck the Sellafield commuters did? and no doubt its the same story all over the place.

 

[B&I]

On the back of the announced cancelled services, have you altered your travel plans today?

No, sure if a train's cancelled you can just whip out your trusty retractable pogo stick and bounce to your destination in exactly the same amount of time

 

[B&I]

I d better check that as it was showing edge hill on a roster I was looking at

Jesus wept. Is it any wonder Northern can't run anything, when their own staff don't even know what stations their services are and are not running to ?

 

[TrW]

As non Industry expert can anyone tell me whether this is the minor inconvenience and near to normal service previously mentioned, that I should just expect as a paying passenger?

The top two lines are the ones I use.

 

[B&I]

0714 Blackburn to Southport



That’s a new one.

Obviously space didn't permit them to add 'against a background of decades of lack of interest and underinvestment by local and national politicians, brought to a head by an attempt to impose a new timetable which was completely unrealistic due to chronic staff shortages and infrastructure problems'

 

[Bertie the bus]

That doesn't cut it really, while all the above may be true, some senior people within the industry must have been aware what was going on , and as such why wasn't action taken sooner?

There's more to get annoyed about than just the feeble excuses in that press release:

How are we making this up to customers?
Passengers are encouraged to apply for Delay Repay compensation for affected journeys and we are working hard to respond to all claims as soon possible.

So just doing what you are contractually obliged to do then and on my travels I haven't encountered any of this encouragement.

 

[RAPC]

Last night took me almost 4 hours to get home from Manchester to Leyland. Arrived at 17:05 for the 17:34 service from Oxford Road. That was showing as cancelled, then reinstated then cancelled. Only the :34 services were still in the system, with everything else cancelled, so staff told us to wait for the 18:34, which was cancelled 10 minutes before departure. They then sent us to Victoria for the 19:05, despite it showing as cancelled. Oxford Road speak to control who are adamant that it will be running and reinstated. Get to Victoria and it is cancelled. Staff there are shaking their heads and bemoaning the fact that Oxford Road are fobbing people off to get them off their station. Victoria staff warn us that that the 20:05 was likely to be cancelled and tell us to head back to Oxford Road for the 19:34. They check with control as we push back on this and yes say control, that is definitely running.

19:34 was cancelled when we arrived a few minutes before departure. Oxford Road had ordered a coach that could take some of us north, but it wasn't due to arrive until 8pm and was going to take a lot longer than a service if one every comes. Tempers are getting a bit short on the station as a number of passengers are fed up of the shuffle between stations and still no trains. Control are consulted and they absolutely, positively, definitely will be running the 20:05 from Victoria. Oxford Road staff promise to keep the coach on-site if by any chance anything happens to that service. We are told to hop on a TPE York service round to Victoria. Fortunately the 20:05 does indeed run and I get to Leyland around 9pm.

Everything was shambolic at the stations. No forward planning, just finger crossing that the train in an hour will come. No plan B (the coach request was at my instigation when the 18:34 was cancelled) and control either having no real clue what is going to happen, or staff being economical with the truth. I believe that control were telling them what they were relaying to us though. Clearly no support or thought given to anyone at an unstaffed station, as the only attempts to help or do anything proactive were driven by complaints to staff.

This morning the first few trains were cancelled that I went for, so I decided to call it a day and head home to do some work as I am fortunate enough to do that. Talking to passengers yesterday struggling to get home, you understand the real impact this on-going shambles is having. A scaffolder from Blackpool having to leave at 6am to have a chance of being at work in Manchester at 9am and then not getting home regularly after 9pm, despite finishing work at 5pm. The lady who is having to take next week off to take her child out of nursery as she won't have any cover and can't guarantee to get to the nursery before it closes. Finally there was a nurse who has already missed the start of early shifts multiple times last week and this week, causing colleagues to have to stay on and cover her. As a result, she has had to change to later shifts, which has had a knock-on to childcare, increasing her costs, causing the hospital problems and meaning she sees less of her family.

I wasn't a fan of the idea of an emergency timetable when it was first pushed last week, but after living through the on-going problems and seeing things get worse, not better, I can't see much else of an option any time soon.