Battery electric trains or Hydrogen Trains?

[randyrippley]

The conclusion in the 1970s was that gas turbine wasn't suitable for rail, due to the fuel consumption on idle being nearly as much as on full power. Trains have intermittent bursts of full power when accelerating but most of the time are at a lower power level. There was some fleet service of Turbotrains, notably in France, but once the oil crisis hit in 1974 it was always unlikely any more would be built.

From what I can tell a fuel cell has a related problem, that isn't good at changing power output quickly. So (unless the gas turbine has improved drastically). either would need to be "hybridised" with a bank of batteries or supercapacitors so that the prime mover could run moreorless constantly, storing the energy when not immediately needed to give a boost during acceleration.

That's exactly why I mentioned batteries / capacitors being used. To be efficient the turbine has to run at constant speed and you would need an energy storage system to do this.
As for fuel cells, as far as railways go I'll believe it when I see it. I don't believe anything exists on the scale required

 

[randyrippley]

BTW, hydrogen isn't used like a conventional "fuel":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

Essentially you'll have an electric train, with a hydrogen fuel cell providing the electricity instead of catenary (or a diesel engine + generator).

But you CAN use hydrogen as a conventional fuel, and turbine technology is far more mature than fuel cells

 

[HSTEd]

Recuperated gas turbines have now got much better in efficiency terms than they were the last time they were seriously considered however.

 

[broadgage]

I agree with those who state the future is or should be 25Kv overhead electrification of almost all the high speed or heavily used parts of the network.
Attempting to carry enough batteries or hydrogen to power a heavy train at line speeds for hundreds of miles is not really viable. It IS just about possible, but that does not make it sensible or economic.

I am NOT stating that research into alternatives is wasted, there will always be parts of the network that are uneconomic or otherwise problematic to electrify.
In 5 years time I expect to see the first battery powered units in regular use, and eventually I expect battery power to be near universal for those parts of the network that are not electrified.

When OHLE reaches Taunton for example, I could foresee an electric train with a modest size battery proceeding on 25Kv from Paddington to Taunton, and then on battery power through to Minehead.
When the OHLE reaches points further west than that, there will be many opportunities for fast 25Kv services from London to main line stations in Cornwall, and the train or a part thereof continuing under battery power to branch line destinations.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I am NOT stating that research into alternatives is wasted, there will always be parts of the network that are uneconomic or otherwise problematic to electrify.

In 5 years time I expect to see the first battery powered units in regular use, and eventually I expect battery power to be near universal for those parts of the network that are not electrified.

I do not share your optimism regarding pure battery powered operation. There are plenty of on-line references to the start of the 379 BEMU trial commencing but I can find none regarding its conclusion. None have subsequently been ordered; indeed the 769 project is arguably a step backwards as far as re-equipping current trains is concerned. It's difficult to avoid concluding that battery technology is still a long way from being suitable for powering trains of any weight more than a fairly short distance with a reasonable level of reliability. But of course batteries are an important part of a hydrogen fuel-cell traction system: in reality such a system is just another form of hybrid that happens to avoid using internal combustion.

It would certainly be interesting to know whether combusting hydrogen to provide railway traction is a genuinely feasible possibility: it seems not to be being considered at the moment.

 

[D365]

I do not share your optimism regarding pure battery powered operation. There are plenty of on-line references to the start of the 379 BEMU trial commencing but I can find none regarding its conclusion. None have subsequently been ordered...

As far as the concept goes, the IPEMU concept was decided to be technically sound. There is certainly potential for replacing diesel units on unelectrified secondary lines. There are a number of scenarios on fully or partially electrified lines for which battery-electric hybrid rolling stock may present a solution.

The Tesla/Panasonic lithium-ion batteries have at least twice the energy density of the Valence U-Charge batteries used in the Class 379 trial. Bombardier has confirmed that the Aventra platform is capable of being delivered with onboard battery storage. Vivarail as well is putting resources into the development of their own battery train system.

Based on this evidence I'd say the industry is anything but discounting battery technology.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As far as the concept goes, the IPEMU concept was decided to be technically sound. There is certainly potential for replacing diesel units on unelectrified secondary lines. There are a number of scenarios on fully or partially electrified lines for which battery-electric hybrid rolling stock may present a solution.

The Tesla/Panasonic lithium-ion batteries have at least twice the energy density of the Valence U-Charge batteries used in the Class 379 trial. Bombardier has confirmed that the Aventra platform is capable of being delivered with onboard battery storage. Vivarail as well is putting resources into the development of their own battery train system.

Based on this evidence I'd say the industry is anything but discounting battery technology.

And yet while there are definite orders for hydrogen powered trains there appear to be none for any powered purely by batteries. This in spite of the fact that battery powered road vehicles are becoming more and more acceptable. Scaling does appear to be a very real issue.

 

[James James]

But you CAN use hydrogen as a conventional fuel, and turbine technology is far more mature than fuel cells

Sure... but the the only projects I know of either use a fuel cell (Coradia iLint) or are planning to (Zillertalbahn).

Clearly, it's mature enough.

 

[reddragon]

Birmingham trams have batteries, Vivarail have a class 230 run by batteries.

Due to the boom in electric cars there is currently a worldwide battery shortage (which is why you have to wait a few months for your EV to be delivered)

When the many giga-factories making batteries start coming on line next year (VW have ordered £48 billion of batteries), expect battery trains to follow.

 

[D365]

And yet while there are definite orders for hydrogen powered trains there appear to be none for any powered purely by batteries. This in spite of the fact that battery powered road vehicles are becoming more and more acceptable. Scaling does appear to be a very real issue.

Have a look at this Wikipedia article; JR East, OBB and Auckland would beg to differ.

That's without mentioning the Class 777 Merseyrail battery trial unit.

Birmingham trams have batteries, Vivarail have a class 230 run by batteries.

Due to the boom in electric cars there is currently a worldwide battery shortage (which is why you have to wait a few months for your EV to be delivered)

When the many giga-factories making batteries start coming on line next year (VW have ordered £48 billion of batteries), expect battery trains to follow.

Indeed, you'll be seeing more of 230002 very soon.

As I've mentioned above, Tesla/Panasonic technology is a clear improvement on the Valence U-Charge batteries, the latter being very much proven on British rails.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Have a look at this Wikipedia article; JR East, OBB and Auckland would beg to differ.

Oh dear, I did just that and then looked for more information.

OBB has indeed ordered Talent 3s. This design is capable of incorporating battery power but I can find no suggestion that any of OBB's will be so fitted. A red herring in terms of this discussion.

The JR East and Auckland trains all depend on running part of their journeys on electrified routes before running relatively short distances along non-electrified branches. At least the Japanese outer termini have charging available through provision of a short stretch of OHLE. In other words these are all bi-modes with the associated weight penalties. A UK equivalent would be running with electrical power/charging from Preston to Oxenholme with battery power forward to Windermere.

That's without mentioning the Class 777 Merseyrail battery trial unit.

Indeed, you'll be seeing more of 230002 very soon.

As I've mentioned above, Tesla/Panasonic technology is a clear improvement on the Valence U-Charge batteries, the latter being very much proven on British rails.

All in all no sign, at least not yet, that battery powered trains can eliminate diesel power from the likes of the Cambrian or Kyle lines. Though I doubt that hydrogen power will be a practical option either!

 

[D365]

The JR East and Auckland trains all depend on running part of their journeys on electrified routes before running relatively short distances along non-electrified branches. At least the Japanese outer termini have charging available through provision of a short stretch of OHLE. In other words these are all bi-modes with the associated weight penalties. A UK equivalent would be running with electrical power/charging from Preston to Oxenholme with battery power forward to Windermere.

Windermere, Hastings etc. are exactly the use cases that the IPEMU investigation was concerned. 50 miles charging, 30 miles on battery. Weight penalty is, at most, 8 tons per four car unit. Less than a 5% increase on an Electrostar.

All in all no sign, at least not yet, that battery powered trains can eliminate diesel power from the likes of the Cambrian or Kyle lines. Though I doubt that hydrogen power will be a practical option either!

With the limiting factor obviously still being charge density for some time, we [as an industry] are not looking yet at using IPEMUs to replace DMUs on services that are more than 40% unelectrified.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Windermere, Hastings etc. are exactly the use cases that the IPEMU investigation was concerned. 50 miles charging, 30 miles on battery. Weight penalty is, at most, 8 tons per four car unit. Less than a 5% increase on an Electrostar.

With the limiting factor obviously still being charge density for some time, we [as an industry] are not looking yet at using IPEMUs to replace DMUs on services that are more than 40% unelectrified.

Government has stated its aspiration to see an end to rail diesel haulage by 2040 and as more clean air zones appear around the country I suspect there will be strong public support for this in due course. Battery technology is improving but it doesn't seem to be doing so quickly enough for the 2040 deadline. The thread title poses the question of battery or hydrogen. I would suggest that other options are needed and will also need to be developed alongside those two.

 

[Andy25]

Oh dear, I did just that and then looked for more information.

OBB has indeed ordered Talent 3s. This design is capable of incorporating battery power but I can find no suggestion that any of OBB's will be so fitted. A red herring in terms of this discussion.

The JR East and Auckland trains all depend on running part of their journeys on electrified routes before running relatively short distances along non-electrified branches. At least the Japanese outer termini have charging available through provision of a short stretch of OHLE. In other words these are all bi-modes with the associated weight penalties. A UK equivalent would be running with electrical power/charging from Preston to Oxenholme with battery power forward to Windermere.



All in all no sign, at least not yet, that battery powered trains can eliminate diesel power from the likes of the Cambrian or Kyle lines. Though I doubt that hydrogen power will be a practical option either!

I think it totally depends on the lines being looked at, shorter diagrams at lower speeds with access to hydrogen economy could suit hydrogen trains very well The technology also exists.

Batteries will come in but the Mersey rail trial vehicle needs 5 tonnes of batteries just to cover short distances so still a long way off being widely suitable.

Room for both!!

 

[D365]

Batteries will come in but the Mersey rail trial vehicle needs 5 tonnes of batteries just to cover short distances so still a long way off being widely suitable.

Why's that? As I've said, 50 miles charging, 30 miles on battery was proven by the IPEMU trial. Not sure what batteries the Class 777 is using but should well be improved from the Valence U-Charge type.

 

[Andy25]

Why's that? As I've said, 50 miles charging, 30 miles on battery was proven by the IPEMU trial. Not sure what batteries the Class 777 is using but should well be improved from the Valence U-Charge type.

As range extenders/gap jumping maybe to some extent but 5 tonnes of batteries is a lot of dead weight to be carrying round when not being used.

So sceptical how much it will be used, could be wrong! Hydrogen currently has a range of 500km so much more useful, batteries could end up being betamax

 

[D365]

As range extenders/gap jumping maybe to some extent but 5 tonnes of batteries is a lot of dead weight to be carrying round when not being used.

So sceptical how much it will be used, could be wrong! Hydrogen currently has a range of 500km so much more useful, batteries could end up being betamax

As I’ve also said, 5 to 8 tons of battery per four car Electrostar is less than 5% additional mass.

What’s to say batteries can’t be used as range extenders for fuel cell trains? That concepr has been set out in one of the design standards that I’ve been referring to.

 

[The_Engineer]

What’s to say batteries can’t be used as range extenders for fuel cell trains? That concepr has been set out in one of the design standards that I’ve been referring to.

Batteries ARE used on Alstom's Coradia Lint trains, mainly because the peak accelerating power required exceeds that which can be obtained from the Hydrogen Fuel Cell. So the battery is not a range extender, it is a peak power booster.

This battery also allows for the recovery of braking energy, so further improving the economics of the system. I would imagine Alstom would not change this arrangement on the Class 321 trials being proposed.

 

[superkev]

As I’ve also said, 5 to 8 tons of battery per four car Electrostar is less than 5% additional mass.

What’s to say batteries can’t be used as range extenders for fuel cell trains? That concepr has been set out in one of the design standards that I’ve been referring to.

It's not the weight that kills batteries its the cost and life currently around £300/kw and 7year life.
For interest just half a pint of diesel generates around 1kw. A 40kw Nissan leaf battery is the equivalent of just 2.5 gallons.
K

 

[xotGD]

It's not the weight that kills batteries its the cost and life currently around £300/kw and 7year life.
For interest just half a pint of diesel generates around 1kw. A 40kw Nissan leaf battery is the equivalent of just 2.5 gallons.
K

I think you are mixing up kW and kWh.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Birmingham trams have batteries, Vivarail have a class 230 run by batteries.

Some of the trams have batteries fitted, they're slowly being upgraded, but they're not in use yet.

The battery-running sections of the line (parts of the Birmingham West Side Extension and the Wolverhampton City Centre Extension) are under construction at present.

 

[superkev]

I think you are mixing up kW and kWh.

Yes sorry meant Kw/hr. Car makers seem to quote kw too when they mean Kw/hr.
K

 

[edwin_m]

Yes sorry meant Kw/hr. Car makers seem to quote kw too when they mean Kw/hr.
K

It's actually kWh - kilowatts multipled by hours. So if a battery suppliers 3kW for 2hr that makes 6kWh.

 

[snowball]

Yes sorry meant Kw/hr. Car makers seem to quote kw too when they mean Kw/hr.
K

It should be kWhr or kWh, not kW/hr, since you get it by multiplying the kilowatts by the hours, not dividing them.

Edit - time overlap with edwin.

 

[edwin_m]

Causes confusion because the watt is a unit of power but when multiplied by time it's a measure of energy. Bit like a light-year being a measure of distance not time...

 

[NotATrainspott]

One watt-hour is 3600 joules. Using Wh makes it easier to reason about real-world applications - e.g. a laptop with a max power draw of 10W will last at least six hours with a 60Wh battery, or a car with a 100kWh battery can cruise at 25kW power for four hours. It'd be just as correct to say the laptop had 216kJ or the car had 360MJ battery capacity. It's exactly like how kilometres per hour is favoured for everyday applications over metres per second.

 

[B&I]

Oh dear, I did just that and then looked for more information.

OBB has indeed ordered Talent 3s. This design is capable of incorporating battery power but I can find no suggestion that any of OBB's will be so fitted. A red herring in terms of this discussion.

The JR East and Auckland trains all depend on running part of their journeys on electrified routes before running relatively short distances along non-electrified branches. At least the Japanese outer termini have charging available through provision of a short stretch of OHLE. In other words these are all bi-modes with the associated weight penalties. A UK equivalent would be running with electrical power/charging from Preston to Oxenholme with battery power forward to Windermere.



All in all no sign, at least not yet, that battery powered trains can eliminate diesel power from the likes of the Cambrian or Kyle lines. Though I doubt that hydrogen power will be a practical option either!

How else are they going to charge, if not using OHLE, third rail or something similar at one end of the line ? An extension lead ?

 

[HSTEd]

The deeside railway BEMU trial used seperate plug in chargers.

 

[gingertom]

The Deeside railway BEMU trial used separate plug in chargers.

turnround times weren't that great though, having to wait for the thing to charge up to make the return leg.

 

[HSTEd]

turnround times weren't that great though, having to wait for the thing to charge up to make the return leg.

Well in the Deeside study I believe line capacity was a major issue, which is why even the expanded service was only six trains a day (which was double the original strength) - but was not enough to save the line.
Would have been interesting if it had gone the toher way, things might have been very different.