EMT and Thameslink (MML)

[muddythefish]

Perhaps because I want what is best for me, with second consideration for everyone else. I don't think like a businessman, I think like a customer. Because I see this country lacking in effort and succeeding at making bad management decisions. I see everyone falling in line behind these bad management decisions. Just because we have what we have, doesn't mean we can't have better.

I grew up around the railways. I want the UK to be railway proud. Or at least see the railway as an alternative to the car. Right now a 3 hour rush hour traffic jam in a car seems like a better, cheaper and more comfortable choice than taking the train.

You don't have to justify yourself to AOwen, who clearly has problems. Many people are in despair at the state of the railways, from privatisation to exorbitant fares, to perennial underfunding to how they are mismanaged from to top to bottom. The recent new timetable fiasco is another example. I agree absolutely with your last sentence - the railway is so appalling now I find myself taking the car more often than not these days. Sad, because I used to love travelling by train.

 

[richieb1971]

Two posters on this forum stating they've stopped using the MML does not support the thesis that 'patronage is declining'.

Looking at Wikipedia for Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harboro - using them as they are solely served by EMT services and all have usage increases of between 5% and 10% from 2012 to 2016.

Some words like "patronage is declining" cannot be measured accurately.

50 people that preferred to take the car could have been replaced by 500 people that had no choice but to take the train. Most people that take the train take it because they have no choice. Apart from to change jobs. We would all expect passenger numbers to be up after all these years, as its well known that railway usage is up 100% (or is that exaggerated?) since the 1980's.

 

[muddythefish]

During the 1980's there was a single Northbound express service which stopped at Leagrave would you believe during the peak. It was on occasions a Class 45, although more often than not a Class 47. Stopped on platform 4 with an 8 coach rake destined for Nottingham I believe. Remember watching 'the suits' returning from the city disembarking and I used to assist in closing the slam doors before returning home for my tea. Remaining trains were 8-car DMUs all stations from Elstree to Bedford.

Those were the days.

Almost certainly someone very high up in BR lived in Leagrave. A quiet word in the timetabler's ear........

 

[A0]

Perhaps because I want what is best for me, with second consideration for everyone else. I don't think like a businessman, I think like a customer. Because I see this country lacking in effort and succeeding at making bad management decisions. I see everyone falling in line behind these bad management decisions. Just because we have what we have, doesn't mean we can't have better.

I grew up around the railways. I want the UK to be railway proud. Or at least see the railway as an alternative to the car. Right now a 3 hour rush hour traffic jam in a car seems like a better, cheaper and more comfortable choice than taking the train.

No, you don't think like a customer. You think like a crank as do certain others on these boards.

Customers like most of the new trains that have arrived - witness the 350s on the WCML for example.

Yes, some are complaining about the 700s, but here's a thing - me and my wife went into London the other day and wandered to St P to use Thameslink to get south of the river. In rolled a 700, my wife's comment? A nice new train, clean, airy, liked how you could see through from one carriage to the next and much nicer than using the Underground.

Cutting EMT services to Bedford is good for many people - I've lost count of the times I've got on a jammed Meridian heading back to Wellingborough which has been standing room only.... until you get to Bedford, at which point it empties out and people travelling to Leicester or Nottingham can finally get a seat. That's madness. Yes it means those poor Bedford commuters get a slightly slower journey on a commuter EMU, but those who are paying fares 30% more than them who have another hour or more on the train might actually get a seat. I suspect Leicester and Nottingham customers are quite pleased about that - apart from the 3 a day who wanted to go to Bedford that is.

In terms of ride quality an HST is fine, but I think the Meridians are just as good and they are much better timekeepers on the stopping services. I also think a Pendo rides just as well if not better than an HST. Ride quality is subjective as is seat comfort.

 

[A0]

Almost certainly someone very high up in BR lived in Leagrave. A quiet word in the timetabler's ear........

Or more likely it was in the pre electric days. And the ECML had similar things in the pre electric days including a Peterborough commuter turn that was HST operated and stopped at places like Huntingdon.

Or the ECML 'sweeper' semi fasts between London and York again which stopped at Huntingdon.

 

[bramling]

Yes, some are complaining about the 700s, but here's a thing - me and my wife went into London the other day and wandered to St P to use Thameslink to get south of the river. In rolled a 700, my wife's comment? A nice new train, clean, airy, liked how you could see through from one carriage to the next and much nicer than using the Underground.

Put her on a station in the morning where the service had for many years been provided by something better (e.g. 365s), and then change this to 700s overnight, and see if she still likes the novelty then. Or joins the large number of people who have complained about the trains. I don't believe all these people are cranks.

 

[richieb1971]

No, you don't think like a customer. You think like a crank as do certain others on these boards.

Customers like most of the new trains that have arrived - witness the 350s on the WCML for example.

Yes, some are complaining about the 700s, but here's a thing - me and my wife went into London the other day and wandered to St P to use Thameslink to get south of the river. In rolled a 700, my wife's comment? A nice new train, clean, airy, liked how you could see through from one carriage to the next and much nicer than using the Underground.

Cutting EMT services to Bedford is good for many people - I've lost count of the times I've got on a jammed Meridian heading back to Wellingborough which has been standing room only.... until you get to Bedford, at which point it empties out and people travelling to Leicester or Nottingham can finally get a seat. That's madness. Yes it means those poor Bedford commuters get a slightly slower journey on a commuter EMU, but those who are paying fares 30% more than them who have another hour or more on the train might actually get a seat. I suspect Leicester and Nottingham customers are quite pleased about that - apart from the 3 a day who wanted to go to Bedford that is.

In terms of ride quality an HST is fine, but I think the Meridians are just as good and they are much better timekeepers on the stopping services. I also think a Pendo rides just as well if not better than an HST. Ride quality is subjective as is seat comfort.

I think your arguments here are very well founded.

350's on the WCML are great. Prices are cheaper on the WCML for whatever reason. I don't know. The ride and time tabling is great as well. But you have to remember you have Southern for competition and you also have Virgin.

Class 700's are ok, but to make those seats more comfortable you have to make journey times faster. So more services servicing bigger places only need to be put in. I think they are supposed to be, but get cut out due to staff shortages and no time to train routes. Thameslink have new trains so they should also have more choices of services and seating. One size that fits all isn't really what Thameslink should be aiming for if they are replacing most of the EMT services during peaks.

I prefer a HST to a pendolino. In comparison to a Meridian I don't like the Meridian as much. Anything with an engine under it isn't going to get my vote. An engine creates vibrations, vibrations cause bolts to come loose. The last time I was on a Meridian the luggage rack was sounding like bending creaking plastic and was not a great sound to hear throughout the 50 odd mile journey from Leicester to Bedford. I do agree though that Meridians have provided a quicker end to end journey for many years for the MML. It all depends on how you measure the different metrics of the time you spend on the train. For me comfort comes first, if the difference in journey time is less than 10 minutes from end to end. If it were a difference of 50 minutes, I would take the Meridian over the HST.

edit - A class 700 comes a long way down the list of preferences.

As suggested above, please don't name call. You seem to have a habit of name calling.

 

[Robertj21a]

You don't have to justify yourself to AOwen, who clearly has problems. Many people are in despair at the state of the railways, from privatisation to exorbitant fares, to perennial underfunding to how they are mismanaged from to top to bottom. The recent new timetable fiasco is another example. I agree absolutely with your last sentence - the railway is so appalling now I find myself taking the car more often than not these days. Sad, because I used to love travelling by train.

I've got this horrible feeling that it was you driving on the M1 last night - old car, middle lane, doing about 50 mph. Driver seemingly away in a world of their own. Yes, sure it must have been you.

 

[A0]

Put her on a station in the morning where the service had for many years been provided by something better (e.g. 365s), and then change this to 700s overnight, and see if she still likes the novelty then. Or joins the large number of people who have complained about the trains. I don't believe all these people are cranks.

Bad choice that - we'd started our journey on the GN, with some trepidation from previous experience as the last couple of times it was standing room only on a Saturday morning - on a 365. The only positive mentioned is this time there were seats on a 4 car 365......

 

[whhistle]

Go and have a look at the fares on comparable distance routes in first class - say London - Wolverhampton.

Maybe so in the First Class, but it doesn't give a good impression when you split it. What's the point in First Class if it isn't to suggest to the customer that they get a lot more than Standard?
The seats aren't that much better, and a free cup of coffee is a bit of a slap in the face considering previous operators used to give everyone free tea and coffee...

Wolverhampton isn't comparable distance compared with say, Leicester. Let's look at something sensible - Coventry. Standard prices are:

Peak:
Coventry to London = £158
Leicester to London = £162.50

Off-Peak:
Coventry to London = £51
Leicester to London = £94

Super Off-Peak:
Coventry to London = £35
Leicester to London = £62.50

So nearly half the price in some cases...

The only grace is that you can use off-peak and super off-peak earlier than on the West Coast. So yes, expensive, compared with a city that is no more than 30 miles west (slightly south-west if you're being like that) - but comparable in miles terms.

Tatty stock - in your opinion. There are certainly much worse condition fleets than the EMT fleet.

Perhaps, but we're talking about the EMT stock and trying to compare it to other major intercity operators to decide whether the product is good or not. Compared with GWR, West Coast and East Coast, it's not good.

Get over it, snowflake! If you want me to do rude, I can do it properly if you wish...

Please do, but don't embarrass yourself - do it via PM.


I'm not saying Stagecoach are choosing to do this or that (far from it, most has been imposed) but some of the internal workings don't make sense and together with the suggestion they're running low on money from the East Coast business... it's fairly simple math.

I agree, the short term management contract doesn't help. But compare with West Coast who went ahead and did some of the things they put in their bid anyway, it's just a bit lacklustre. They pay less than the other big three, staff benefits aren't as good and motivation isn't that high.

Perhaps it's time to stop comparing it with GWR/East/West Coast (maybe the comparison has been fuelled by the HST stock and Intercity's branding) and thinking of it more as Chiltern or Anglia route.

 

[Kettledrum]

Two posters on this forum stating they've stopped using the MML does not support the thesis that 'patronage is declining'.

Looking at Wikipedia for Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harboro - using them as they are solely served by EMT services and all have usage increases of between 5% and 10% from 2012 to 2016.

From my observations, I'd agree that patronage at Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harborough is increasing. It's North of Leicester where it's uncompetitively slow and passengers are going elsewhere. (Leicester can still be served in just over an hour on a fast train).

Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham are decent sized cities - so it's a shame they're not well served.

 

[Kettledrum]

Perhaps it's time to stop comparing it with GWR/East/West Coast (maybe the comparison has been fuelled by the HST stock and Intercity's branding) and thinking of it more as Chiltern or Anglia route.

Thinking of it as Chiltern type route might work for the Southern end of the line, but certainly not for Sheffield, Nottingham, or Derby where an inter-city type service is needed and expected to attract inward economic investment for these cities.

On the through services that Chiltern operate services from Birmingham to Marylebone, the fares are normally much cheaper than the competition from Virgin and they have also tried to attract passengers with the refurbished shiney silver trains (MK3 coaches with plug doors) - a very different approach to what we have seen on the Midlands Main Line.

 

[A0]

I think your arguments here are very well founded.

350's on the WCML are great. Prices are cheaper on the WCML for whatever reason. I don't know. The ride and time tabling is great as well. But you have to remember you have Southern for competition and you also have Virgin.

But that's not always true about the prices e.g:

An off-peak travelcard is being used to provide an equal comparison:

Hatfield £ 19.50
Hemel Hempstead £ 19.40
St Albans City £ 18.50

Stevenage £ 22.80
Luton £ 22.30
Leighton Buzzard £ 21.40

Hardly significant differences. The only point when it *does* change is when you get north of Bedford on the MML and Wellingborough / Kettering are *far* more expensive than Northampton or Huntingdon.

Class 700's are ok, but to make those seats more comfortable you have to make journey times faster. So more services servicing bigger places only need to be put in. I think they are supposed to be, but get cut out due to staff shortages and no time to train routes. Thameslink have new trains so they should also have more choices of services and seating. One size that fits all isn't really what Thameslink should be aiming for if they are replacing most of the EMT services during peaks.

One size fits all is exactly the approach needed for Thameslink - they are about shifting as many people as possible at peak times. Even BR discounted having multiple types of stock on the Bedford line, because when it was electrified they initially looked at having a similar approach to the GN lines i.e. an 'inner' suburban unit and an 'outer' suburban unit. They decided not to proceed with that because the MML doesn't have the clearly different stopping patterns the GN has.

There *will* be a replacement 2 tph Corby service *once* the electrification is done - but you knew that - so to complain about there being only TL services at peak out of Luton and Bedford is disingenuous. What those trains will look like - who knows? But the 379s have been touted and would seem to be a sensible option.

I prefer a HST to a pendolino. In comparison to a Meridian I don't like the Meridian as much. Anything with an engine under it isn't going to get my vote. An engine creates vibrations, vibrations cause bolts to come loose. The last time I was on a Meridian the luggage rack was sounding like bending creaking plastic and was not a great sound to hear throughout the 50 odd mile journey from Leicester to Bedford. I do agree though that Meridians have provided a quicker end to end journey for many years for the MML. It all depends on how you measure the different metrics of the time you spend on the train. For me comfort comes first, if the difference in journey time is less than 10 minutes from end to end. If it were a difference of 50 minutes, I would take the Meridian over the HST.

edit - A class 700 comes a long way down the list of preferences.

As I said, personal preference. If the noise in the carriage was a problem, why not move?

That said, I've been on HSTs which have creaked and rattled. I've been on EMUs where the doors have rattled. There is no 'perfect' unit.

As suggested above, please don't name call. You seem to have a habit of name calling.

*sigh* time for a basic grammar lesson. I did not call you a name. I did not say you were 'x'. Go back an re-read - you said that you believed you "thought like a customer", which patently you don't. Because you'd be quite happy making Leicester and Nottingham passengers stand for an hour to Bedford until those poor little lambs at Bedford alight from their nice EMT service so those who've paid far more to make a much longer journey can then have a seat. All because you think Bedford deserves long-distance services for no practical reason. For that reason I stated you were thinking like a 'crank' - driven by emotion or some other bias. If I'd said you were a crank, then you'd have had a point, but I didn't - for very deliberate reasons.

I've said before, once the Corby's are in place, the long distance (i.e. Nottingham and Sheffield) services EMT run will have no justification whatsoever for stopping at Bedford. The only places I can see there being justification for them stopping at are Kettering - to provide connectivity onto the Corby services and Luton Airport.

 

[A0]

From my observations, I'd agree that patronage at Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harborough is increasing. It's North of Leicester where it's uncompetitively slow and passengers are going elsewhere. (Leicester can still be served in just over an hour on a fast train).

Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham are decent sized cities - so it's a shame they're not well served.

It's a tricky one - the linespeed is slow, which doesn't help and not something electrification would have helped necessarily.

I don't buy the argument people are heading to the WCML i.e. Tamworth or Nuneaton - they hardly get any Virgin WC services now, so it's not really a valid comparison. Even if the times work it only makes a small amount of sense to people living south / west of Derby - to anyone else it's a massive detour.

Again for Sheffield or Chesterfield, there's no obvious place to head to on the ECML - Doncaster? that's a bit out of the way. Newark? again a bit of a trek. Retford's the obvious one but that only gets an hourly direct to KX and the journey time's 1h 30 - 1h 40, compared to 2h 10 for Sheffield - you'll easily consume 30 mins getting to Retford, so it doesn't make much sense as the frequency is poorer.

Nottingham's a different case primarily because it has decent connections to Grantham and Grantham has a decent service to KX - so I can see why that option is used.

Either way, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield have done far better out of Midland Mainline and EMT than they ever did out of BR.

Yes, BR introduced HSTs to the line - belatedly though in 1982, 5 years after they'd turned up on the ECML and GWML - but as I've shown on other posts, they had a bizarre, haphazard timetable.

It was MML who brought in a more structured timetable and added the Turbostars to handle the stopping services, which meant both better journey times and more frequent services to Nottingham and Derby. No it's not perfect, but it's much better than BR offered.

 

[talltim]

The only time I've heard PA problems are when 2 sets are connected. Single units have tended to be fine.

I hear them all the time. It normally starts out ok the but then cuts to very quiet with intermittent loud words

 

[ag51ruk]

I don't buy the argument people are heading to the WCML i.e. Tamworth or Nuneaton - they hardly get any Virgin WC services now, so it's not really a valid comparison. Even if the times work it only makes a small amount of sense to people living south / west of Derby - to anyone else it's a massive detour.

There have actually always been a number of people who travel Derby - Euston via Tamworth in the mornings, for many years - I've done it myself when the times fit. With a good connection at Tamworth, the journey time is quick enough that a couple of trains appear in journey planners as the quickest option at certain times of day - e.g. 0648 from Derby arrives Euston at 0823 with 8 minutes at Tamworth, the quickest morning peak journey available. The main disadvantage is that no advance fares are available for the whole trip, you need an Anytime ticket but that does give you flexibility to use either route

 

[tbtc]

Having travelled on the MML for 60 plus years, from steam days to the present, I'm not surprised patronage is declining

It's funny how the MML has gone from a ninety minute service to Nottingham, a ninety minute service to Sheffield (both run with trains that only had sixty-ish seats per carriage) and about four "commuter" DMUs per hour to an off peak service of fifteen trains per hour (ten Thameslink, five EMT) with many brand new twelve coach trains... whilst patronage is declining!

I know you want to believe that everything was better in the Good Old Days etc, but just think about what you are saying here...

Right now a 3 hour rush hour traffic jam in a car seems like a better, cheaper and more comfortable choice than taking the train.

It's probably always been the case that driving yourself is cheaper than taking the train, if you are only comparing the petrol costs to the cost of a train ticket (which includes the ticket seller, the station staff, the driver, the guard, the signalling staff, the British Transport Police, the cost of maintenance staff, the cost of buying the train).

I'm not sure that this should be surprising anyone.

Similarly, in your own personal car, you don't need to worry about austere vandal-proof fittings, you can have luxuries that TOCs wouldn't want to provide (because they'd soon get ripped/ damaged/ stolen).

Either way, Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield have done far better out of Midland Mainline and EMT than they ever did out of BR.

Yes, BR introduced HSTs to the line - belatedly though in 1982, 5 years after they'd turned up on the ECML and GWML - but as I've shown on other posts, they had a bizarre, haphazard timetable.

It was MML who brought in a more structured timetable and added the Turbostars to handle the stopping services, which meant both better journey times and more frequent services to Nottingham and Derby. No it's not perfect, but it's much better than BR offered.

Agreed - the MML's transformation has been hugely significant - I think that some people forget what a "Cinderella" line it was in BR days - like the lumbering "Peaks" whilst the proper main lines were getting Deltics and HSTs and 87s.

The Victorian alignment means that it's never going to be a fast route (e.g. you can get from Kings Cross to York faster than St Pancras to Sheffield) but MM and EMT have made some major improvements - maybe some posters should stick to trundling along at 25mph on preserved railways and leave the busy modern trains to others.

 

[Kettledrum]

It's funny how the MML has gone from a ninety minute service to Nottingham, a ninety minute service to Sheffield (both run with trains that only had sixty-ish seats per carriage) and about four "commuter" DMUs per hour to an off peak service of fifteen trains per hour (ten Thameslink, five EMT) with many brand new twelve coach trains... whilst patronage is declining!

Agreed - the MML's transformation has been hugely significant - I think that some people forget what a "Cinderella" line it was in BR days - like the lumbering "Peaks" whilst the proper main lines were getting Deltics and HSTs and 87s.

The Victorian alignment means that it's never going to be a fast route (e.g. you can get from Kings Cross to York faster than St Pancras to Sheffield) but MM and EMT have made some major improvements .

Yes huge improvements, but North of Kettering it's still a Cinderella line - so great for Thameslink, but still not good enough for the 21st century passengers from Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield.

Even electrification north of Kettering (which isn't going to happen) wouldn't make journey times anywhere near fast enough for modern demands, and there's not much else you could do with the current alignment to make it financially viable. Hence, why the Eastern leg of HS2 is planned.....and is so important to the east midlands and south yorkshire economies.

 

[A0]

Yes huge improvements, but North of Kettering it's still a Cinderella line - so great for Thameslink, but still not good enough for the 21st century passengers from Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield.

Even electrification north of Kettering (which isn't going to happen) wouldn't make journey times anywhere near fast enough for modern demands, and there's not much else you could do with the current alignment to make it financially viable. Hence, why the Eastern leg of HS2 is planned.....and is so important to the east midlands and south yorkshire economies.

Electrification was never going to solve that - yes it means better acceleration than diesels, but they'd still have been limited to the 90 / 100mph line speed which hobbles the MML currently. The bulk of the speed gains on the ECML were made in the early 1960s with the straightening out of the line and removing junctions etc - such an exercise has never been carried out on the MML, yes it's being looked at for Market Harborough, but compare the MML with the ECML for its first 70 miles, you've got speed restrictions through places like Wellingborough or Bedford which simply don't exist on the ECML between London and Peterboro.

What *could* make a difference would be having tilting trains - in the same way that sped up journeys on the WCML north of Crewe.

The only way to improve Nottingham's service materially would be to re-instate a direct line and speed up Corby - Melton, but there isn't sufficient traffic to justify the works that would be needed to do it.

 

[mallard]

Hence, why the Eastern leg of HS2 is planned.....and is so important to the east midlands and south yorkshire economies.

Except that city-to-city journey times for the East Midlands (Derby, Nottingham, Leicester and places that connect via them) via HS2 will be barely any faster (and in some cases slower) than via existing routes, due to the poor siting (due entirely to cost minimisation) of the "East Midlands Hub". Add a 10-minute connection time and a slow connecting shuttle train journey to the HS2 journey times and it all becomes rather unimpressive. Apart from possibly a couple of new business parks in the Toton area, HS2's economic effect in the East Midlands will be minimal.

 

[muddythefish]

I know you want to believe that everything was better in the Good Old Days etc, but just think about what you are saying here.

Agreed - the MML's transformation has been hugely significant - I think that some people forget what a "Cinderella" line it was in BR days - like the lumbering "Peaks" whilst the proper main lines were getting Deltics and HSTs and 87s..

Sorry, but it was better all those years ago (I speak from experience!) - proper coaches with comfortable seats, better ambience, space to move about and decent legroom, no underfloor engines, with associated noise and rattling, no overcrowding on 4-coach trains that are way too short, restaurant cars with linen tablecloths, cutlery, and freshly cooked meals, proper buffet cars, better staffing, simple ticketing that was easy to understand and didn't give you the feeling you weren't being ripped off or facing a possible court case if you got one minute detail of your ticket wrong, ticket inspectors who didn't see passengers as a "revenue opportunity"......................the list is endless.

Passengers living in Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham and Leicester would say the MML still is a Cinderella line. The West Coast was electrified in the 1960s and the East Coast 20 years later, yet in 2018 it still hasn't been electrified (thanks to Failing Grayling), and is unlikely to be electrified throughout for the foreseeable future. The West Coast has Pendolinos and the East Coast the Class 91s but the MMT has some very old HSTs and the nasty little glorified DMU that is the Meridians. The MML is and always has been last on the list of the main north-south lines for investment.

 

[A0]

Sorry, but it was better all those years ago (I speak from experience!) - proper coaches with comfortable seats, better ambience, space to move about and decent legroom, no underfloor engines, with associated noise and rattling, no overcrowding on 4-coach trains that are way too short, restaurant cars with linen tablecloths, cutlery, and freshly cooked meals, proper buffet cars, better staffing, simple ticketing that was easy to understand and didn't give you the feeling you weren't being ripped off or facing a possible court case if you got one minute detail of your ticket wrong, ticket inspectors who didn't see passengers as a "revenue opportunity"......................the list is endless.

Passengers living in Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham and Leicester would say the MML still is a Cinderella line. The West Coast was electrified in the 1960s and the East Coast 20 years later, yet in 2018 it still hasn't been electrified (thanks to Failing Grayling), and is unlikely to be electrified throughout for the foreseeable future. The West Coast has Pendolinos and the East Coast the Class 91s but the MMT has some very old HSTs and the nasty little glorified DMU that is the Meridians. The MML is and always has been last on the list of the main north-south lines for investment.

I suggest you look up a documentary that was on Channel 5 a couple of weeks ago about the HST. The comments made there about the trains which preceded the HST's was damming. Equally damming was Prue Leith's view of the BR catering - she was invited onto the BR board to do something about it.

There are only 4 x 4 car Meridians in use - the majority are in 5 or 7 car formation and at peak the 4 cars are nearly always tied to a 5 car to make a 9 car formation.

I'm pretty sure from travelling on both Mk1 and Mk2 based stock that they were far from quiet - the absence of air con meant windows being open resulting in wind noise. The doors rattled, the seats squeaked. They stank of stale humans and cigarette smoke.

Most people don't travel on a train to avail themselves of 'fine dining' - indeed on a journey of less than 1 hour, most don't even bother with the on-board refreshments - so why take up valuable space providing full kitchen facilities which might be used on 2 services a day?

And as I stated earlier - on it's own, electrification of the MML would make minimal improvement to the journey time - even BR realised that which is why they were pushing the APT, because it was the only way they could significantly reduce the journey time from London to Leicester.

As for the ticketing - I think BR did more than its fair share of ripping people off - the problem in those days was you turned up to the ticket office and had to buy whatever the bloke behind the window told you. Whereas now you have transparency - you can look up fares on a mobile phone - and most of the restrictions are pretty easy to understand e.g. if it says Virgin Trains Only - getting on board a LNW train would seem to be wrong. If it says 'Not via London' guess what - if you head to Euston or St Pancras you're probably in breach.

You want to live in the 1970s - that's fine. As I said earlier, just go to Loughborough and you can ride loco hauled Mk1s to your heart's content - but the majority of us much prefer a clean, reliable train which turns up frequently - and don't forget places like Kettering or Wellingborough didn't enjoy a regular clock-face timetable as late as 1998. OK, it's a bit compromised at the moment having gone to a 20/40 split, but that's only until the half hourly Corby service is sorted and then it will be back to sensible times as well.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sorry, but it was better all those years ago (I speak from experience!) - proper coaches with comfortable seats, better ambience, space to move about and decent legroom, no underfloor engines, with associated noise and rattling, no overcrowding on 4-coach trains that are way too short, restaurant cars with linen tablecloths, cutlery, and freshly cooked meals, proper buffet cars, better staffing, simple ticketing that was easy to understand and didn't give you the feeling you weren't being ripped off or facing a possible court case if you got one minute detail of your ticket wrong, ticket inspectors who didn't see passengers as a "revenue opportunity"......................the list is endless.

Passengers living in Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham and Leicester would say the MML still is a Cinderella line. The West Coast was electrified in the 1960s and the East Coast 20 years later, yet in 2018 it still hasn't been electrified (thanks to Failing Grayling), and is unlikely to be electrified throughout for the foreseeable future. The West Coast has Pendolinos and the East Coast the Class 91s but the MMT has some very old HSTs and the nasty little glorified DMU that is the Meridians. The MML is and always has been last on the list of the main north-south lines for investment.

I guess that you are about 90 years old so can be excused for getting a bit carried away but you seem to have forgotten the need for life with ration books, terrible illnesses and that many people were living in absolute poverty - yet you were dining with freshly cooked meals on a train to London.

 

[richieb1971]

No, you don't think like a customer. You think like a crank as do certain others on these boards.

Cutting EMT services to Bedford is good for many people

Maybe I wasn't clear myself. I am upset that EMT cut services, but more importantly I am upset of the timing of the cut services. The lesser of 2 evils here is resume the old schedules and paths and give Thameslink the time they needed to resume the new scheduling and paths. There are many more upset people right now than there ever was prior to this mess. What we have is a step gone backwards instead of forwards. I don't see EMT customers championing this move, its just nicer for them. There are prior EMT customers (now Thameslink) customers absolutely crapping themselves that they will have to wait until 2023 until this mess sorts itself out. I am not sure if Thameslink have committed to an official statement of when "ADVERTISED" services will resume.


I am not a crank. If you sense emotional input on my part, its all part and parcel of my life's upbringing that the most fairest option should always be used where possible.

 

[Speedbird96]

Sorry, but it was better all those years ago (I speak from experience!) - proper coaches with comfortable seats, better ambience, space to move about and decent legroom, no underfloor engines, with associated noise and rattling, no overcrowding on 4-coach trains that are way too short, restaurant cars with linen tablecloths, cutlery, and freshly cooked meals, proper buffet cars, better staffing, simple ticketing that was easy to understand and didn't give you the feeling you weren't being ripped off or facing a possible court case if you got one minute detail of your ticket wrong, ticket inspectors who didn't see passengers as a "revenue opportunity"......................the list is endless.

Passengers living in Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham and Leicester would say the MML still is a Cinderella line. The West Coast was electrified in the 1960s and the East Coast 20 years later, yet in 2018 it still hasn't been electrified (thanks to Failing Grayling), and is unlikely to be electrified throughout for the foreseeable future. The West Coast has Pendolinos and the East Coast the Class 91s but the MMT has some very old HSTs and the nasty little glorified DMU that is the Meridians. The MML is and always has been last on the list of the main north-south lines for investment.

Just hearing the amount of too-ing and throwing whether the Midland Main Line was better under BR or under privatisation, and arguments can certainly be made for and against. Since I was born just after the Midland Main Line had been privatised, I can't say from experience my thoughts of BR was like, however there are certainly timetables out there that showed how irregular the service pattern was from Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham before privatisation began.

As someone who has travelled on the Midland Main Line since late-2006, I have seen a fair amount of changes from Midland Mainline to East Midlands Trains. In my experience, Midland Mainline was a very well run operation and admired them right up until the end in 2007. The HSTs were refurbished to a very good standard, the service standards were good and introducing Turbostars allowed the HSTs to work the limited stop services as well as bring a more frequent timetable that was much needed. Of course, the Turbostars couldn't keep up with the 110mph nature of the line and replaced by Meridians in 2004 which was a smart decision. The Meridians are not nasty; yes they may not be perfect (I've had many a pleasant journey on them in their early years) but they are certainly not the worst trains operating on the National Rail network.

Remember, it was the Midland Main Line that came to the rescue when the West Coast Main Line went through major problems with the modernisation programme in 2003-2004 and at least the Strategic Rail Authority and Midland Mainline had the foresight of providing direct rail services from London St. Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly during this period... Yes, journey times to Manchester took longer and yes, the HSTs inherited from Virgin were in awful condition, but showed that the MML could cope with the increasing traffic... Of course, we are in 2018 and is certainly different now then it was 15 years ago when Project Rio commenced.

As for EMT, they haven't been perfect but at least they have tried given the amount of funding they receive... I will give them credit for reintroducing services to Corby which was always planned anyway but at least acquiring further Class 222s for the job is better than nothing at all. The introduction of 125mph journeys certainly helped those who wanted to get to the capital quicker. The timetable recast of December 2008 scratched a few heads, whilst Derby and Sheffield did see further improvements, Nottingham didn't benefit so much (I remember when the fasts only called at Leicester with the odd stopping point at Loughborough) and I can agree that commuters wanting London from Nottingham often travel to Grantham as it is much quicker. Allowing the fasts to stop at East Midlands Parkway and Market Harborough, as well as Leicester was an oversight in my opinion.

The general consensus now; unfortunately EMT had to recast their timetable so as to benefit Thameslink commuters as that has been where the most investment has been placed. What will happen next is who will win the next East Midlands franchise as right now, there is a limbo atmosphere at the moment. I am fairly certain that new trains will be procured and I don't see the HSTs operating past 2020 on the MML.

Interesting times ahead...

 

[A0]

Maybe I wasn't clear myself. I am upset that EMT cut services, but more importantly I am upset of the timing of the cut services. The lesser of 2 evils here is resume the old schedules and paths and give Thameslink the time they needed to resume the new scheduling and paths.

I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable than either you or I - The planner or ChiefPlanner will be able to explain why that's a non starter. Such decisions aren't made for fun.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Just hearing the amount of too-ing and throwing whether the Midland Main Line was better under BR or under privatisation, and arguments can certainly be made for and against. Since I was born just after the Midland Main Line had been privatised, I can't say from experience my thoughts of BR was like, however there are certainly timetables out there that showed how irregular the service pattern was from Sheffield, Derby and Nottingham before privatisation began.

As someone who has travelled on the Midland Main Line since late-2006, I have seen a fair amount of changes from Midland Mainline to East Midlands Trains. In my experience, Midland Mainline was a very well run operation and admired them right up until the end in 2007. The HSTs were refurbished to a very good standard, the service standards were good and introducing Turbostars allowed the HSTs to work the limited stop services as well as bring a more frequent timetable that was much needed. Of course, the Turbostars couldn't keep up with the 110mph nature of the line and replaced by Meridians in 2004 which was a smart decision. The Meridians are not nasty; yes they may not be perfect (I've had many a pleasant journey on them in their early years) but they are certainly not the worst trains operating on the National Rail network.

Remember, it was the Midland Main Line that came to the rescue when the West Coast Main Line went through major problems with the modernisation programme in 2003-2004 and at least the Strategic Rail Authority and Midland Mainline had the foresight of providing direct rail services from London St. Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly during this period... Yes, journey times to Manchester took longer and yes, the HSTs inherited from Virgin were in awful condition, but showed that the MML could cope with the increasing traffic... Of course, we are in 2018 and is certainly different now then it was 15 years ago when Project Rio commenced.

As for EMT, they haven't been perfect but at least they have tried given the amount of funding they receive... I will give them credit for reintroducing services to Corby which was always planned anyway but at least acquiring further Class 222s for the job is better than nothing at all. The introduction of 125mph journeys certainly helped those who wanted to get to the capital quicker. The timetable recast of December 2008 scratched a few heads, whilst Derby and Sheffield did see further improvements, Nottingham didn't benefit so much (I remember when the fasts only called at Leicester with the odd stopping point at Loughborough) and I can agree that commuters wanting London from Nottingham often travel to Grantham as it is much quicker. Allowing the fasts to stop at East Midlands Parkway and Market Harborough, as well as Leicester was an oversight in my opinion.

The general consensus now; unfortunately EMT had to recast their timetable so as to benefit Thameslink commuters as that has been where the most investment has been placed. What will happen next is who will win the next East Midlands franchise as right now, there is a limbo atmosphere at the moment. I am fairly certain that new trains will be procured and I don't see the HSTs operating past 2020 on the MML.

Interesting times ahead...

Good posting - well done and thank you.

MML's co-operation in setting up Operation Rio was excellent (frankly - they were happy to be paid for it , and pleased to get the extra work and resources) , I half expected about 6 hard meetings to get the specification included , but they had prepared a really good briefing paper with the options and it took no more than a couple of good, workmanlike meetings to get the plan organised with all parties , including the late Central Trains. (running Nottingham to Nuneaton as a "shuttle") , one particular highlight showing good old railway skills was calling the duty signalman on the phone at Dore and Totley for his advice , which he willingly did in between his tasks. Freight retimed a couple of services down the Hope Valley. All good

The sets received from Virgin XC had been stored even without the decency of a sweep through , with many droplight windows left open .......(so that rainwater got in) ..however they were soon put back into good order and are (of course) partly in service.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'm sure somebody more knowledgeable than either you or I - The planner or ChiefPlanner will be able to explain why that's a non starter. Such decisions aren't made for fun.

The whole impact of changing the existing timetable for Thameslink (bar crudely knocking out whole trains) , is unmanageable for the moment due to (a comprehensive impact on about 1/3 of the UK south of the Thames in terms of volume of passengers , let alone the ECML , freight etc ! (b) the well known and severe pressures on the long term and short term planning teams in both Freight and TOC land , let alone Network Rail.

Both train operators and NR are clearly working very hard on the basic timetable production process , and frankly there is an actual limit on what can and cannot be achieved , despite lots of extra overtime etc being worked in all areas.

On what i can see from here (now retired of course) , I get the impression on Thameslink that the timetable appears to be "OK" functionally , (from a production point of view and without going into a list of changes all over about specific station calls etc , all of which has been done to death on here and other forums no doubt) , but the real challenge is getting the driving community fully qualified on the new route sections ,and in many cases - new traction types etc. Was it not termed the largest train driver recruitment programme ever ? ....

Remember , there have been severe overhauls and challenges in the past - I was still in school and a long way from where I reside now - but the major timetable upgrade of 1967 affecting the whole of the Southern Region was vilified and there were many , many calls to scrap it and go back to the old plan. Brave managers held tight , mad some significant local changes and recovered the day - after some torrid weeks. What was on the horizon - Bournemouth Line electrification (the end of steam) , and lurking not too far away , "Operation London Bridge" ....someone needs to write this up.

 

[sheff1]

Agreed - the MML's transformation has been hugely significant - I think that some people forget what a "Cinderella" line it was in BR days - like the lumbering "Peaks" whilst the proper main lines were getting Deltics and HSTs and 87s.

I would not call express services, many with restaurant cars, to/from Sheffield alternately via Nottingham and Derby all day long a Cinderella service.

The transformation has indeed been significant. One thing MML did early on was remove the restaurant service from the northbound peak trains from St Pancras - this caused me, and many others, to transfer to the East Coast route to Doncaster. On a more prosaic front, the loss of the cross-platform interchange at Leicester between fast and semi-fast services - again an all day feature when I first started using the route under BR - has made journeys from Sheffield to the likes of Kettering, Bedford and Luton less convenient. Obviously smaller flows than Sheffield - London, but not insignificant.

What engines powered the trains in BR days (which is what I assume the second part refers to) is not relevant at all to most passengers, myself included.

 

[Kettledrum]

, Nottingham didn't benefit so much (I remember when the fasts only called at Leicester with the odd stopping point at Loughborough) and I can agree that commuters wanting London from Nottingham often travel to Grantham as it is much quicker. Allowing the fasts to stop at East Midlands Parkway and Market Harborough, as well as Leicester was an oversight in my opinion.

The general consensus now; unfortunately EMT had to recast their timetable so as to benefit Thameslink commuters as that has been where the most investment has been placed.

very good post, Speedbird96!

In respect of the Nottingham fasts stopping at East Midlands Parkway - I recall that the line speed into Nottingham is really slow, so this stop doesn't add as much as you might have thought. It would be interesting to consider how much investment would be needed to increase the line speed into Nottingham.

You are right about all the investment going onto the Thameslink services. This has actually left very few paths available for the longer distance MML services. Ideally you would have more paths and you'd operate limited stop fast trains to Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby. There are too few paths now for East Midlands Trains, so the "fast trains" have to make too many stops.