EMT and Thameslink (MML)

[A0]

In all seriousness you are looking at it as a crank, not as a regular passenger. Ask them what they want and it is a frequent service, good journey times, air conditioning etc.

You've clearly not traded posts with muddythefish before - he's stuck in 1976.

I'm with you in 2018 and rate the Meridians pretty highly and more so than any MK1 slam door based stock.

 

[muddythefish]

Compartments are only any good if the train is lightly loaded, otherwise they are a right pain - you tend to get each compartment occupied by one person. Why anyone would want to listen to a slow lumbering Sulzer thing up front is beyond me. The MML got a vastly improved service in 1983 when the HSTs arrived, and again when MML brought the Turbostars in for a big timetable improvement in the late 1990s.

In all seriousness you are looking at it as a crank, not as a regular passenger. Ask them what they want and it is a frequent service, good journey times, air conditioning etc.

I have little time for the rose-tinted view of things like VEPs. Rancid horrid things - the Desiros, Junipers and Electrostars are a vast improvement, and that's just one example.

Anyone who enjoys sitting in a cramped, overcrowded environment, in narrow seats surrounded by the great unwashed of the British public, with all their detritus of baggage and food, unable to see out of badly sited windows, with an engine throbbing under their feet, really is a crank, or mad.

Probably both.

 

[tbtc]

Compartments (hurrah) and therefore quietness and privacy, nice soft seats you could sink into, picture windows that matched seating in the opens, no underfloor engines, windows you could open so you listen to the big Sulzers up front, the feeling of space and being in a "proper" train. Heaven compared to the modern "experience".

Ah, the old "modern trains are too noisy, with their under-floor engines... why can't we go back to the Good Old Days when there was a massive engine at the front of the train that I used to love listening to, rather than the relatively small ones underneath carriages" angle? Noisy engines are fine if they are on "proper trains" (i.e. loco-hauled services)?

Compartments and sprung seats are fun at 25mph on a preserved railway but would be a nightmare on the modern railway - can you imagine the anti-social behaviour you'd get nowadays?

Sounds like the old 45s on the MML are going the way of the loco-hauled services on XC - with every passing year the nostalgists remember them as being another couple of carriages longer than the average load (I'm sure that there were some ten coach services, if you insist, but its funny how people always remember the longest rakes rather than the average ones)

 

[muddythefish]

Please don't tell me to grow up.tc.

You've clearly not traded posts with AOwen before. He always insults people who disagree with him or hold opposite views.

Surprised he hasn't been banned. .

 

[A0]

A number of Meridians do have ripped seats and they are also suffering from issues with the public address system which is cutting in and out on various units and inaudible on many others.

The only time I've heard PA problems are when 2 sets are connected. Single units have tended to be fine.

 

[muddythefish]

Tthe longest rakes rather than the average ones)

The longest were up to 12 if I remember correctly, in steam days hauled by Jubilees and the like even longer. Now those were real trains.

 

[A0]

You've clearly not traded posts with AOwen before. He always insults people who disagree with him or hold opposite views.

Surprised he hasn't been banned. .

The mods have better taste than you and are far more open minded. I'd like the MML to be a modern frequent railway, you'd like it run as a museum.

If you want to go and ride behind a Peak in some draughty old Mk1s on an infrequent timetable you need only travel to Loughborough - the GCR will be happy to oblige. The rest of us can travel at 100 mph+ on frequent air con's trains.

 

[43096]

The longest were up to 12 if I remember correctly, in steam days even longer. Now those were real trains.

How often did they run and how long did journeys take? At best it was hourly to each of Nottingham and Sheffield, though I think it was more like every 90 minutes.

Not the only thing that was longer - journey times were slow. Very slow.

 

[A0]

The longest were up to 12 if I remember correctly, in steam days hauled by Jubilees and the like even longer. Now those were real trains.

With no more than 64 seats per coach, compared to 74 in a Mk 3 - so that capacity can be matched with 10 Mk3s.

 

[Kettledrum]

Which Virgin services from Lichfield / Tamworth would those be then? There certainly isn't a frequent service from those stations by Virgin - and certainly nothing like EMT's frequency from Derby.

Agree it's not frequent, but if you want a peak time service, they are very fast.

Best Virgin trains from Tamworth are 06.49 (1 hr 10), 07.15 (1 hr 8) and returning at 16.57 or 17.57 in a similar journey time.

Most of the Derby to London trains have a journey of around 1 hr 50 (before the long walk at St Pancras).

........ and best of all, since switching, I've never had to stand in the aisles, or sit on the floor outside a smelly toilet and I've never seen someone having to sit in a luggage rack either.

 

[richieb1971]

A peak running compartment services in the late 70's probably would have worked then. But when you think how much space is consumed by making compartments, how much revenue in seating is lost by doing that. Well its not the way of the future thats for sure.

I remember as a child sitting in a very loud and plastic seated coach behind a class 45 from London to Bedford. The train shook a lot, was very loud.. especially in the toilet where I was actually scared to pee. It was great to see those chunks of metal from the fields and roads along the MML, but actually riding on them was a different matter. I only travelled on them a couple of times so my experience may have not been the norm.

I remember cabbing a class 45 at Bedford when peak services terminated at Bedford in the mid 80's. The cab was so disappointing. I was expecting something space age, it looked like it had seen better days. In comparison a HST cab was space age.

 

[A0]

How often did they run and how long did journeys take? At best it was hourly to each of Nottingham and Sheffield, though I think it was more like every 90 minutes.

Not the only thing that was longer - journey times were slow. Very slow.

To give a practical example, I believe the launch timetable for the ''Bedpan' electrics in the early 80s was 2 tph Luton - Moorgate stoppers, 1 tph St P - Bedford. Usually using 4 car 317s. Compare that with today.

 

[A0]

Agree it's not frequent, but if you want a peak time service, they are very fast.

Best Virgin trains from Tamworth are 06.49 (1 hr 10), 07.15 (1 hr 8) and returning at 16.57 or 17.57 in a similar journey time.

Most of the Derby to London trains have a journey of around 1 hr 50 (before the long walk at St Pancras).

........ and best of all, since switching, I've never had to stand in the aisles, or sit on the floor outside a smelly toilet and I've never seen someone having to sit in a luggage rack either.

What 'long walk' ?

At St P you walk downstairs and you can be on Thameslink which will get you to the City. A little further - but much less than Euston, gets you to the Victoria or Picadilly lines.

I can use either Northampton or Wellingborough to go into London - 9 times out of 10 I'll use Wellingborough because onward journeys from St P are miles better than Euston.

 

[richieb1971]

I think he is talking about the walk from the tube stations that reside on the rear (road side) side of the station. You have traverse a few corridors underground, go up a few escalators, up a few stairs, turn right, head through the international shopping precinct area, up an escalator and traverse to the EMT platforms. I did that with a suit case recently with 5 minutes until departure. It was a big slog to say the least, made it with 20 seconds before departure and had to stand.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

To give a practical example, I believe the launch timetable for the ''Bedpan' electrics in the early 80s was 2 tph Luton - Moorgate stoppers, 1 tph St P - Bedford. Usually using 4 car 317s. Compare that with today.

Hmm - I can run up to the library and look at the timetables , (it must have been better than that) where there are paper copies in the reference section.

Today's service is far better throughout the day , with the benefit of an almost 24 hour service bar Saturday night to Sunday morning ....the DMU service was pretty dire off peak by all accounts - a local to Luton and a Bedford which was fast to somewhere like Elstree then all stations. (obviously much augmented in the peaks) - while St Albans had a notional call in a LHCS service north of Bedford , this was probably not much used for other than handy fast trips to and from the Great Wen.

Despite ASLEF , "Bedpan" was a huge success, Thameslink has been a huge success, - just a matter of maintaining service standards. Would be interesting if anyone could pull out the service reliabilty and performance when it went from SPX and Moorgate to running south of the river via the Snow Hill tunnels. A bit patchy I assume , but nothing like the meltdown that the poor GN cross London services have seen.

 

[A0]

Somebody has, helpfully, posted the details of the MML timetable between '89 - '93 under BR.

What it shows is a completely haphazard timetable, riddled with odd stopping patterns.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/in...city-services-on-the-midland-main-line/page-2

 

[Chester1]

The trains they are replacing in peak times were often standing room only for Bedford or Luton passengers. So definately not comfortable in practice. Standing in the aisles of an HST, or just outside the toilets in the vestibule of a Meridian or sitting in the luggage rack is pretty awful. I have done all 3 travelling back to the Midlands, at least until the train empties at the first stop on the return journey.

I have never been in a class 700, but they must be bad if passengers are hankering after the halcyon days of being able to relax in the comfort of an HST luggage rack, or smell the sweet aroma of the meridian toilets

The 700s are not good but they are not bad either. They are fine for half hour journeys and adequate for longer journeys. I guess for those that got a seat its a big step down. I commuted for 2 years on Virgin Trains services and liked it. Now I have moved I try to aim for the Virgin Trains services into Manchester. Its not a right though and if there are an adequate number of seats on alternative services its reasonable to prioritise Intercity capacity for long distance travellers.

 

[A0]

Hmm - I can run up to the library and look at the timetables , (it must have been better than that) where there are paper copies in the reference section.

Today's service is far better throughout the day , with the benefit of an almost 24 hour service bar Saturday night to Sunday morning ....the DMU service was pretty dire off peak by all accounts - a local to Luton and a Bedford which was fast to somewhere like Elstree then all stations. (obviously much augmented in the peaks) - while St Albans had a notional call in a LHCS service north of Bedford , this was probably not much used for other than handy fast trips to and from the Great Wen.

Despite ASLEF , "Bedpan" was a huge success, Thameslink has been a huge success, - just a matter of maintaining service standards. Would be interesting if anyone could pull out the service reliabilty and performance when it went from SPX and Moorgate to running south of the river via the Snow Hill tunnels. A bit patchy I assume , but nothing like the meltdown that the poor GN cross London services have seen.

Happy to bow to your superior knowledge and timetable library - just recall reading that was the stopping pattern some years back and reflecting that the GN offered a better service - tables have turned a bit since Thameslink arrived.

 

[A0]

I think he is talking about the walk from the tube stations that reside on the rear (road side) side of the station. You have traverse a few corridors underground, go up a few escalators, up a few stairs, turn right, head through the international shopping precinct area, up an escalator and traverse to the EMT platforms. I did that with a suit case recently with 5 minutes until departure. It was a big slog to say the least, made it with 20 seconds before departure and had to stand.

The route to some of the deep level tube lines at KGX / St P does seem to have become more convoluted but I assume that's LUL trying to manage the volume of passengers.

Either way KGX / St P is miles better than Euston which only has 2 tube lines on site and the one which gets you to the city is always rammed at rush hour.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Happy to bow to your superior knowledge and timetable library - just recall reading that was the stopping pattern some years back and reflecting that the GN offered a better service - tables have turned a bit since Thameslink arrived.

Just a debate - but the pre -electric GN had a service even worse than the Midland ! , the "GN electrics" was a superb success , even though they never initially got the Golden Traffic venue of Cambridge initially - but then settled down to a good , solid railway.

Better traffic options (all day) than the Midland frankly , so putting the latter south of the Thames was an excellent and economic boost for all. In those far off days I lived in the poor purlieus of Haydons Road , and a neighbour who lived there , but bizarrely worked in Radlett - had a work / life balance transformed when Tlk stage 1 came in.....

Anyway - we are where we are ,and just need to somehow get a grip on all this ..

 

[A0]

Just found this - the stopping pattern at Kettering between 8.30 and 12.40 on a weekday in 1987.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70002-hst-numbers-in-1987/page-2#entry1843336

 

[muddythefish]

The mods have better taste than you and are far more open minded. I'd like the MML to be a modern frequent railway, you'd like it run as a museum.

If you want to go and ride behind a Peak in some draughty old Mk1s on an infrequent timetable you need only travel to Loughborough - the GCR will be happy to oblige. The rest of us can travel at 100 mph+ on frequent air con's trains.

The Mk 1s I remember were warm and comfortable, and the service better and infinitely cheaper with a buffet and/or restaurant car. And the trains were staffed properly.

If you enjoy a miserable travelling experience that's your choice.

 

[cactustwirly]

The Mk 1s I remember were warm and comfortable, and the service better and infinitely cheaper with a buffet and/or restaurant car. And the trains were staffed properly.

If you enjoy a miserable travelling experience that's your choice.

Travelling on Mk1s isn't my idea of comfortable...
HSTs however give a substantially better experience.

 

[richieb1971]

HST is best riding train experience i've had in my life time. A modern electric version of the HST with more coaches would be my order of new trains for all electrified railways that could support such a train. Its a pity that the people upstairs always know better. I'm sure I will be slammed for this, i get slammed for everything else.

 

[muddythefish]

My previous post gives a diagnosis as to why there may be empty seats further North,

That's another reason why EMT and MML has lost so many longer distance travellers like me.

Having travelled on the MML for 60 plus years, from steam days to the present, I'm not surprised patronage is declining. I haven't used it for the past couple of years and now use the east coast or the M1 instead - and as a railway supporter I don't say that lightly. Yes, the line really has become that bad.

Meredians are dire, nasty little trains and make for a unpleasant experience, which travelling by train never used to be. Coupled with the constant delays, the dreadful new St Pancras (shopping centre with a station attached), with MML passengers clearly regarded as a nuisance by the station's designers, and the timetable skewed to favour London commuters, it's an easy decision to travel by other means.

 

[A0]

I'm sure I will be slammed for this, i get slammed for everything else.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why that is?

 

[A0]

Having travelled on the MML for 60 plus years, from steam days to the present, I'm not surprised patronage is declining. I haven't used it for the past couple of years and now use the east coast or the M1 instead - and as a railway supporter I don't say that lightly. Yes, the line really has become that bad.

Meredians are dire, nasty little trains and make for a unpleasant experience, which travelling by train never used to be. Coupled with the constant delays, the dreadful new St Pancras (shopping centre with a station attached), with MML passengers clearly regarded as a nuisance by the station's designers, and the timetable skewed to favour London commuters, it's an easy decision to travel by other means.

Two posters on this forum stating they've stopped using the MML does not support the thesis that 'patronage is declining'.

Looking at Wikipedia for Wellingborough, Kettering and Market Harboro - using them as they are solely served by EMT services and all have usage increases of between 5% and 10% from 2012 to 2016.

 

[richieb1971]

Perhaps you should ask yourself why that is?

Perhaps because I want what is best for me, with second consideration for everyone else. I don't think like a businessman, I think like a customer. Because I see this country lacking in effort and succeeding at making bad management decisions. I see everyone falling in line behind these bad management decisions. Just because we have what we have, doesn't mean we can't have better.

I grew up around the railways. I want the UK to be railway proud. Or at least see the railway as an alternative to the car. Right now a 3 hour rush hour traffic jam in a car seems like a better, cheaper and more comfortable choice than taking the train.

 

[MML]

During the 1980's there was a single Northbound express service which stopped at Leagrave would you believe during the peak. It was on occasions a Class 45, although more often than not a Class 47. Stopped on platform 4 with an 8 coach rake destined for Nottingham I believe. Remember watching 'the suits' returning from the city disembarking and I used to assist in closing the slam doors before returning home for my tea. Remaining trains were 8-car DMUs all stations from Elstree to Bedford.

Those were the days.

 

[richieb1971]

Perhaps because I want what is best for me, with second consideration for everyone else. I don't think like a businessman, I think like a customer. Because I see this country lacking in effort and succeeding at making bad management decisions. I see everyone falling in line behind these bad management decisions. Just because we have what we have, doesn't mean we can't have better.

I grew up around the railways. I want the UK to be railway proud. Or at least see the railway as an alternative to the car. Right now a 3 hour rush hour traffic jam in a car seems like a better, cheaper and more comfortable choice than taking the train.

Also, I spent a considerable time in Japan during all of April. I witnessed first hand the efficiency and respect the railway there gets. The trains were immaculate inside and out, always on time. The riding experience was 2nd to none. The people were railway proud. The drivers and staff bowed to the customers.. And then I went on the shinkansen. When everything exceeded my expectations. I didn't even see a weed in the rails.

Until the public demand more, they will get what they get with NR and the franchises. Vote with your wallet. I'd advise not to take jobs that require a train, because your just a ticket purchaser and that money will go into shareholders hands quicker than you can shake a stick at them. We have world role models to look at to make our railways better. We choose to put shareholders first.

I could go on and on. I'm here to observe excuses only, so when I get them I fight back. Thats why I'm here and I don't expect to be popular.