EMT and Thameslink (MML)

[43074]

There was a bit of commuting from Kettering/Wellingborough to Bedford, a solution that would have maintained the link might have been to extend the peak Corby shuttle services to run through to Bedford instead. From north of Kettering though the numbers are/were pretty small at that time of day anyway.

Northbound the concern was overcrowding due to shorter formations on evening peak services, so a pick up only restriction at Bedford would probably have been a better solution that would both control crowding and maintain the link from there Northbound.

 

[nottsnurse]

Journeys such as Leicester to Bedford, arriving at Bedford at 0900, returning at 1700 is not possible. This isn't good.

That's not what you said though. I quote,

And what if someone wants to travel from Luton or Bedford to Wellingborough, Kettering, Corby, Leicester, Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield etc.

The example you initially gave was the opposite of the one you're stating now.

Whilst I'm sure the huge amount of people who travel between Leicester and Bedford every morning peak are going to inconvenienced by this change, this is something that was forced upon EMT by a London-centric DFT, whose primary concern seems to getting the good burghers of Luton and Bedford onto Thameslink (commuter) services that have been prioritised at the expense of EMT (Inter City) ones.

Let's not forget, the MML has been the victim of cutbacks to planned improvements, with the lion's share of those that have happened being restricted to the area covered by Thameslink. Whilst London dormitory-towns continue to see funding for improvements, those of us further afield are having to make do with legacy rolling stock of dubious quality and changes to our timetable to prioritise Thameslink services. The only option to try and claw back some degree of service improvement for those of us who don't benefit from Thameslink is to remove stops in those areas that do.

 

[43096]

True but apart from more money, what else would there have been?
Which seems to fit into the whole "Stagecoach desperate for cash" above anything else.

Company in wanting to make profits shock.

Which bits of capitalism are you struggling to understand?

 

[richieb1971]

I was going to say not utilizing the wymington slow line with a small unit to wellingborough would be nice instead of a bus. But the fools closed that as well. Not that a spare unit would be available if course. In the 80s you could charter a dmu for school trips. The progress of privatisation.

 

[edwin_m]

I was going to say not utilizing the wymington slow line with a small unit to wellingborough would be nice instead of a bus. But the fools closed that as well. Not that a spare unit would be available if course. In the 80s you could charter a dmu for school trips. The progress of privatisation.

It's only temporarily closed during electrification.

Joined-up thinking might be to order another 230 or two and run a shuttle as part of a common fleet with the Marston Vale line.

 

[richieb1971]

It's only temporarily closed during electrification.

Joined-up thinking might be to order another 230 or two and run a shuttle as part of a common fleet with the Marston Vale line.

Isn't going to happen in the world of privatization. All Thameslink seem to care about at the moment is profits (prepaid tickets and caring faff all about the customer service they are delivering, albeit the fault of NR).

EMT aren't exactly at fault here since they are doing as ordered to do.

What you have here is a possibility that one company could help out the other, but the referee saying its not going to happen. That is railway privatization.

 

[Class 170101]

I doubt there will many commuters betrween Bedford and stations north now. They would have almost certainly swapped to the congested M1.

 

[whhistle]

Company in wanting to make profits shock.

Which bits of capitalism are you struggling to understand?

There's a significant difference between "making a healthy profit" and being desperate for cash that everything is very over priced in comparison to other companies who do the same thing, while at the same time, standards aren't that high.

For example, tatty stock, chargable first class food... I generally don't see this on the East or West Coast, or on GWR (although I realise the latter has special chargable Pullman services).

But thanks for being rude all the same.

 

[tbtc]

Let's not forget, the MML has been the victim of cutbacks to planned improvements, with the lion's share of those that have happened being restricted to the area covered by Thameslink. Whilst London dormitory-towns continue to see funding for improvements, those of us further afield are having to make do with legacy rolling stock of dubious quality and changes to our timetable to prioritise Thameslink services. The only option to try and claw back some degree of service improvement for those of us who don't benefit from Thameslink is to remove stops in those areas that do.

Agreed.

Look at the two TOCs:

• Thameslink has had brand new twelve coach trains
• Thameslink has had massive amounts of money spent on infrastructure
• Thameslink has seen an increase in frequency on the MML corridor (e.g. from eight/hour to ten/hour off-peak)

.

• EMT has seen journeys slowed down (to accommodate Thameslink services)
• EMT has seen timetables mucked about with (to accommodate Thameslink services), e.g. there's no London - Sheffield service between 16:47 and 18:02 (though there are nineteen northbound Thameslink services from St Pancras during this period, compared to only three services to Leicester)
• EMT have had to get in some 1970s trains just to maintain the existing timetable (due to the timetable being slowed down)
• EMT passengers have seen electrification cancelled (other than the short bit to Corby)

...meanwhile people on here blame Stagecoach, presumably because they usually blame Stagecoach for things?

EMT are just following Government orders - I'm sure Stagecoach would like the revenue from peak Bedford - Leicester trips, but given the lack of peak paths for Leicester there's not the capacity for such luxuries (hence putting on a bus).

In the 80s you could charter a dmu for school trips. The progress of privatisation.

Given how busy lines are nowadays, how many paths do you think we should keep spare in case a school wants to hire one for a jaunt?

Given how stretched fleets are nowadays, how many trains do you think we should keep spare for such eventualities?

chargable first class food...

Shocking - imagine asking passengers to pay for the food they want to eat... this is an outrage!

 

[A0]

I was going to say not utilizing the wymington slow line with a small unit to wellingborough would be nice instead of a bus. But the fools closed that as well. Not that a spare unit would be available if course. In the 80s you could charter a dmu for school trips. The progress of privatisation.

Oh grow up. The slows have been closed temporarily to allow the re-doubling, upgrade and electrification to happen. By being closed they can get far more done in less time than having endless evening and weekend closures.

Major works like that don't happen by magic - it's not like relaying track on a Hornby set regardless of what you think.

 

[A0]

It's only temporarily closed during electrification.

Joined-up thinking might be to order another 230 or two and run a shuttle as part of a common fleet with the Marston Vale line.

Anything less than a 100mph DMU will be in the way between Kettering and Bedford at the moment - and that's before you have to find a platform for it to sit at in Bedford.

What's being done at the moment is the right answer - Bedford and Luton get more seats and a marginally slower journey for the next 2 years - but journeys which are competitive with similar distance towns from London.

 

[A0]

There's a significant difference between "making a healthy profit" and being desperate for cash that everything is very over priced in comparison to other companies who do the same thing, while at the same time, standards aren't that high.

For example, tatty stock, chargable first class food... I generally don't see this on the East or West Coast, or on GWR (although I realise the latter has special chargable Pullman services).

But thanks for being rude all the same.

I don't think EMT's stock is tatty - the HSTs seem fine and the Meridians are probably nearingthe point where they need a refresh but they're not tatty - certainly not by the standards BR had.

As for 'free food' - last time I checked you paid a ticket to be transported from point A to point B - not to be fed and watered en route. Free food isn't a consistent 1st class offering, it isn't offered on many short haul flights (which are longer than most EMT journeys) nor on ferry crossings.v

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't think EMT's stock is tatty - the HSTs seem fine and the Meridians are probably nearingthe point where they need a refresh but they're not tatty - certainly not by the standards BR had.

As for 'free food' - last time I checked you paid a ticket to be transported from point A to point B - not to be fed and watered en route. Free food isn't a consistent 1st class offering, it isn't offered on many short haul flights (which are longer than most EMT journeys) nor on ferry crossings.v

I disagree, the Meridians have duct tape everywhere, and they have ripped seats.
If that's not tatty, then I don't know what is!

The HSTs are a bit better, but they're looking quite tired.
The untouched toilets & original seats don't really help the look.

 

[A0]

I disagree, the Meridians have duct tape everywhere, and they have ripped seats.
If that's not tatty, then I don't know what is!

The HSTs are a bit better, but they're looking quite tired.
The untouched toilets & original seats don't really help the look.

Not seen that on any of the dozen or so Meridians I've been on over the last couple of months. A slightly thin seat cover perhaps, hence my comment about due for a mid life refresh, but still far better than much stock in BR days.

 

[Qwerty133]

Not seen that on any of the dozen or so Meridians I've been on over the last couple of months. A slightly thin seat cover perhaps, hence my comment about due for a mid life refresh, but still far better than much stock in BR days.

A number of Meridians do have ripped seats and they are also suffering from issues with the public address system which is cutting in and out on various units and inaudible on many others.

 

[43096]

There's a significant difference between "making a healthy profit" and being desperate for cash that everything is very over priced in comparison to other companies who do the same thing, while at the same time, standards aren't that high.

For example, tatty stock, chargable first class food... I generally don't see this on the East or West Coast, or on GWR (although I realise the latter has special chargable Pullman services).

Go and have a look at the fares on comparable distance routes in first class - say London to Bristol, Wolverhampton, Nottingham and Newark. The food is not "free" it is included in the ticket price.

Tatty stock - in your opinion. There are certainly much worse condition fleets than the EMT fleet. A succession of short-term franchise extensions/direct awards don't help as it is very difficult to make the investment case.

 

[cactustwirly]

Go and have a look at the fares on comparable distance routes in first class - say London to Bristol, Wolverhampton, Nottingham and Newark. The food is not "free" it is included in the ticket price.

Tatty stock - in your opinion. There are certainly much worse condition fleets than the EMT fleet. A succession of short-term franchise extensions/direct awards don't help as it is very difficult to make the investment case.


Get over it, snowflake! If you want me to do rude, I can do it properly if you wish...

In terms of intercity stock, EMT is definitely the worst!
Surely it doesn't cost the earth to replace ripped fabric etc.

 

[muddythefish]

I was going to say not utilizing the wymington slow line with a small unit to wellingborough would be nice instead of a bus. But the fools closed that as well. Not that a spare unit would be available if course. In the 80s you could charter a dmu for school trips. The progress of privatisation.

Agreed. I've stopped using the MML because of this absurd situation. The railway is being run for the benefit of engineers (and the privatised profiteers of course), not passengers.

 

[43096]

In terms of intercity stock, EMT is definitely the worst!
Surely it doesn't cost the earth to replace ripped fabric etc.

Can't say I've seen any ripped fabric, though admittedly I haven't used the 222 fleet much recently.

Certainly the HSTs are going through a C6 overhaul programme at Neville Hill currently, which includes seat cushion replacement and vestibule lighting upgrade.

 

[muddythefish]

There's a significant difference between "making a healthy profit" and being desperate for cash that everything is very over priced in comparison to other companies who do the same thing, while at the same time, standards aren't that high.

For example, tatty stock, chargable first class food... I generally don't see this on the East or West Coast, or on GWR (although I realise the latter has special chargable Pullman services).

But thanks for being rude all the same.

I wouldn't say they've reached the tatty stage yet, but they are nasty little trains compared to the comfortable (but sometimes careworn) Mk 1 and later rolling stock that ran on the line in BR days.
Give me a Peak and 10 coaches (often including restaurant car) over the appalling Meridians any day of the week.

 

[43096]

I wouldn't say they've reached the tatty stage yet, but they are nasty little trains compared to the comfortable (but sometimes careworn) Mk 1 and later rolling stock that ran on the line in BR days.
Give me a Peak and 10 coaches (often including restaurant car) over the appalling Meridians any day of the week.

Rose tinted glasses. Mark 1s had uncomfortable seats, were cold in winter and boiling hot in summer. Timetable was rubbish - 90mph max and the service was both slower and less frequent than it is now. Give me an air-conditioned train running at 125mph over the 1950s/60s junk.

 

[muddythefish]

Rose tinted glasses. Mark 1s had uncomfortable seats, were cold in winter and boiling hot in summer. Timetable was rubbish - 90mph max and the service was both slower and less frequent than it is now. Give me an air-conditioned train running at 125mph over the 1950s/60s junk.

Compartments (hurrah) and therefore quietness and privacy, nice soft seats you could sink into, picture windows that matched seating in the opens, no underfloor engines, windows you could open so you listen to the big Sulzers up front, the feeling of space and being in a "proper" train. Heaven compared to the modern "experience".

 

[richieb1971]

Oh grow up. The slows have been closed temporarily to allow the re-doubling, upgrade and electrification to happen. By being closed they can get far more done in less time than having endless evening and weekend closures.

Major works like that don't happen by magic - it's not like relaying track on a Hornby set regardless of what you think.

Please don't tell me to grow up. I would actually agree with you if work was actually done in recent weeks. Perhaps I don't know every little thing there is to do with railways and their construction, but having being down that line on recent occasions I can report the following (lets base this on the fact that the last trains ran early April on that line if my sources are correct).

1) Signals are still in place where the 2nd line would go (the track that is laid won't be joined up until they go).
2) No new track has been laid
3) No electrification work has taken place


In fact, all has been done is a bit of ballast movement. There are some light digger equipment littered around. Considering your correct statement that the line was closed and they could work quicker with the line out of service, Its a very poor assessment of productivity done in the time we are talking here. I'd expect very heavy machinery, a permanent staff presence and a lot of noise of happening. On every occasion I've been down there I can hear birds chirping in the distance. There is literally nothing going on. I was in Japan the whole of April, in the time I left and returned some Gantries on the fast lines have been put up, which is not part of the line which was closed. Considering this thread is about getting things moving, for the better, with improvements. Things are going slower than snail pace. I'm sure NR are short on resources and things need to fall into place before the next phase can go on, that is always the excuse. However, if that was the case, why shut the railway so early? Its a bit like road work cones that are out 6 months in advance of any work done etc.

 

[Kettledrum]

Agreed. I've stopped using the MML because of this absurd situation. The railway is being run for the benefit of engineers (and the privatised profiteers of course), not passengers.

Lots of people have stopped using EMT on the MML too - for a variety of reasons, including train departure times, too many stops and cramped services. Passengers from South West of Derby are using the fast Virgin Services from Lichfield or Tamworth, passengers from Nottingham are using East Coast services from Grantham and passengers from Sheffield are using East Coast Services from Doncaster or Retford.

The latent demand on this route from passengers put off using the MML at the moment is huge.
Thameslink has been great for the stations at the southern end of the route, but done nothing for services further North.

North of Leicester, the MML has a 3rd class service, with awful journey times.

The location of the MML platforms at St Pancras just adds to the door to door journey times as they are such a long walk from anywhere.

 

[Kettledrum]

I have been wondering how the EMT trains have been loading in the peak hours , with the reduction of LAP / LTN and Bedford calls , presume lots of empty seats. Anyone have any observations ?

My previous post gives a diagnosis as to why there may be empty seats further North,

Peak trains going South are full from Market Harborough or Kettering, so no there were rarely any seats for anyone from Luton or Bedford anyway. Commuters going home may have got a seat at St Pancras in the evening if they got on the train early enough. Passengers without seat reservations were often unlucky and would have to stand until the seats became free at Bedford or Luton.

Really annoying for a long distance passenger who had paid through the nose for an open return for maximum flexibility, only to have to stand. That's another reason why EMT and MML has lost so many longer distance travellers like me.

 

[richieb1971]

I think the problem here is that Thameslink only offer a class 700. If Thameslink are covering EMT services from Bedford their trains should be as comfortable as the trains they are replacing.

I hope Thameslink sort out their dire cancellation rate sometime soon and hopefully someone up top can suggest a different spec class 700 which has better facilities. Have all the 700's been built yet? If not they should consider putting the production line on hold until this can come up for review.

Its my understanding that all electrics can only do 100mph on the MML south of Bedford. That needs to be reviewed as well. Quite a few years ago I knew a food trolley guy who sat up front on a ghost train (empty stock move probably) to get back to Bedford and he said the 319 he was on exceeded 100mph all the way.

 

[43096]

Compartments (hurrah) and therefore quietness and privacy, nice soft seats you could sink into, picture windows that matched seating in the opens, no underfloor engines, windows you could open so you listen to the big Sulzers up front, the feeling of space and being in a "proper" train. Heaven compared to the modern "experience".

Compartments are only any good if the train is lightly loaded, otherwise they are a right pain - you tend to get each compartment occupied by one person. Why anyone would want to listen to a slow lumbering Sulzer thing up front is beyond me. The MML got a vastly improved service in 1983 when the HSTs arrived, and again when MML brought the Turbostars in for a big timetable improvement in the late 1990s.

In all seriousness you are looking at it as a crank, not as a regular passenger. Ask them what they want and it is a frequent service, good journey times, air conditioning etc.

I have little time for the rose-tinted view of things like VEPs. Rancid horrid things - the Desiros, Junipers and Electrostars are a vast improvement, and that's just one example.

 

[muddythefish]

The location of the MML platforms at St Pancras just adds to the door to door journey times as they are such a long walk from anywhere.

One reason why the St Pancras was badly conceived. Passengers from the north on the MML were an afterthought, stuck out at the end of the station compared to the lavish provision and citing of the Eurostar platforms.

 

[A0]

Lots of people have stopped using EMT on the MML too - for a variety of reasons, including train departure times, too many stops and cramped services. Passengers from South West of Derby are using the fast Virgin Services from Lichfield or Tamworth, passengers from Nottingham are using East Coast services from Grantham and passengers from Sheffield are using East Coast Services from Doncaster or Retford.

The latent demand on this route from passengers put off using the MML at the moment is huge.
Thameslink has been great for the stations at the southern end of the route, but done nothing for services further North.

North of Leicester, the MML has a 3rd class service, with awful journey times.

The location of the MML platforms at St Pancras just adds to the door to door journey times as they are such a long walk from anywhere.

Which Virgin services from Lichfield / Tamworth would those be then? There certainly isn't a frequent service from those stations by Virgin - and certainly nothing like EMT's frequency from Derby.

 

[Kettledrum]

I think the problem here is that Thameslink only offer a class 700. If Thameslink are covering EMT services from Bedford their trains should be as comfortable as the trains they are replacing.

The trains they are replacing in peak times were often standing room only for Bedford or Luton passengers. So definately not comfortable in practice. Standing in the aisles of an HST, or just outside the toilets in the vestibule of a Meridian or sitting in the luggage rack is pretty awful. I have done all 3 travelling back to the Midlands, at least until the train empties at the first stop on the return journey.

I have never been in a class 700, but they must be bad if passengers are hankering after the halcyon days of being able to relax in the comfort of an HST luggage rack, or smell the sweet aroma of the meridian toilets