Should TfL step into Thameslink?

[NorthKent1989]

and why on earth has Sadiq Khan been silent on this issue that’s affecting a large part of the capital? Correct me if I’m wrong but has he said anything at all?

Back to my main point, should Thameslink have TfL take over its route and cut it to size, you could have basic routes to paces like Bedford, Welwyn, Sevenoaks and Guildford?

It’s like Thameslink cannot make up its mind on what it wants to be a miniature intercity service for the South East, an interurban express metro or London’s second metro system, perhaps getting TfL involve might make it more manageable and clear on what it should be (an express metro line, similar to Crossrail)

 

[Ianno87]

Guildford. That well known London borough.

 

[Mwanesh]

Thameslink should not be part of Tfl .Most people are against it why should London manage whats outside their zone.

 

[JonathanH]

and why on earth has Sadiq Khan been silent on this issue that’s affecting a large part of the capital? Correct me if I’m wrong but has he said anything at all?

Back to my main point, should Thameslink have TfL take over its route and cut it to size, you could have basic routes to paces like Bedford, Welwyn, Sevenoaks and Guildford?

It’s like Thameslink cannot make up its mind on what it wants to be a miniature intercity service for the South East, an interurban express metro or London’s second metro system, perhaps getting TfL involve might make it more manageable and clear on what it should be (an express metro line, similar to Crossrail)

What are TfL going to be able to do? They are facing massive budget issues. They wouldn't be able to throw money at the issue. They would have the same number of staff on the ground to run the service and the same level of staff training to work through.

What interest does TfL have in services to Bedford? Thameslink has to serve Bedford as there is nowhere else for the trains from there to terminate in central London. Bedford is miles away from the responsibilities of Transport for London.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Why not give GTR a bit of time to sort out the mess they've created? As I mentioned in a thread earlier today, TfL was rejected early in the TL Programme. I know you've only had Thameslink for week, but those who've had it for longer have changed journeys because of the existence of Thameslink.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

and why on earth has Sadiq Khan been silent on this issue that’s affecting a large part of the capital? Correct me if I’m wrong but has he said anything at all?

Back to my main point, should Thameslink have TfL take over its route and cut it to size, you could have basic routes to paces like Bedford, Welwyn, Sevenoaks and Guildford?

It’s like Thameslink cannot make up its mind on what it wants to be a miniature intercity service for the South East, an interurban express metro or London’s second metro system, perhaps getting TfL involve might make it more manageable and clear on what it should be (an express metro line, similar to Crossrail)

Thameslink doesn't have a mind to make up: it is whatever the DfT says it should be. That's how franchising works! I suspect Mr Khan is keeping out of it because firstly Thameslink would likely be too much for TfL to deal with and secondly TfL has more than enough on its plate right now with Crossrail.

 

[swt_passenger]

Guildford. That well known London borough.

That’s been a long term withdrawal from the original Thameslink plans anyway, I assumed because it was seen as a useless idea once initial planning started in earnest.

But the basic idea that TfL could fix things easily is farcical.

 

[bramling]

and why on earth has Sadiq Khan been silent on this issue that’s affecting a large part of the capital? Correct me if I’m wrong but has he said anything at all?

Back to my main point, should Thameslink have TfL take over its route and cut it to size, you could have basic routes to paces like Bedford, Welwyn, Sevenoaks and Guildford?

It’s like Thameslink cannot make up its mind on what it wants to be a miniature intercity service for the South East, an interurban express metro or London’s second metro system, perhaps getting TfL involve might make it more manageable and clear on what it should be (an express metro line, similar to Crossrail)

No thanks. The best TOCs to operate the respective services are Great Northern, South Central and South Eastern. The less of Thameslink, in any form, the better.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Why not give GTR a bit of time to sort out the mess they've created? As I mentioned in a thread earlier today, TfL was rejected early in the TL Programme. I know you've only had Thameslink for week, but those who've had it for longer have changed journeys because of the existence of Thameslink.

Thameslink have had time, a few years of it if I recall to prepare for some of the biggest changes most of the South East (and the country) have seen and that first week of Thameslink hasn’t endeared myself and most of Medway I imagine one bit.

I accept that TfL cannot get involved.

No thanks. The best TOCs to operate the respective services are Great Northern, South Central and South Eastern. The less of Thameslink, in any form, the better.

Hard to argue this, I kinda hope this mess will allow some lines to go back to the old timetable and services

 

[Agent_Squash]

Thameslink have had time, a few years of it if I recall to prepare for some of the biggest changes most of the South East (and the country) have seen and that first week of Thameslink hasn’t endeared myself and most of Medway I imagine one bit.

If GTR was replaced by a competent operator, then TL wouldn't have been such a big mess. There is no point trying to 'get rid of Thameslink' - all effort should go into trying to make the service work to unlock more capacity at terminals such as Kings Cross.

 

[TRAX]

Is it Transport for London or Transport for the whole Land ?

 

[700007]

TfL should not have control of this service due to the fact it is intercity and not every service is a Metro.

Sadiq Khan is staying quiet probably due to TfL digging their own grave in debts, topping a billion pounds now. Spending spending spending without covering the costs won't come across well for the Labour Party. It would do them no good taking over this service.

 

[NorthKent1989]

If GTR was replaced by a competent operator, then TL wouldn't have been such a big mess. There is no point trying to 'get rid of Thameslink' - all effort should go into trying to make the service work to unlock more capacity at terminals such as Kings Cross.

That’s fine, but I do hope Thameslink will be withdrawn from Medway entirely.

 

[Domh245]

It is all well and good arguing whether TfL should take over Thameslink, but on a practical level it would never happen. The current minister is very reluctant to give TfL more than he has to (see Croxley, Southern Metro services) and so the odds of them giving away Thameslink, especially as it is a DfT baby (whilst Crossrail is a TfL baby), are very slim indeed.

 

[Antman]

and why on earth has Sadiq Khan been silent on this issue that’s affecting a large part of the capital? Correct me if I’m wrong but has he said anything at all?

Back to my main point, should Thameslink have TfL take over its route and cut it to size, you could have basic routes to paces like Bedford, Welwyn, Sevenoaks and Guildford?

It’s like Thameslink cannot make up its mind on what it wants to be a miniature intercity service for the South East, an interurban express metro or London’s second metro system, perhaps getting TfL involve might make it more manageable and clear on what it should be (an express metro line, similar to Crossrail)

I think Sadiq Khan has got problems of his own without poking his nose into the Thameslink fiasco, I think it's mostly people outside of London who've been adversely affected anyway.

 

[Chrisgr31]

If GTR was replaced by a competent operator, then TL wouldn't have been such a big mess.

Just what competent operator do you have in mind? Northern appears to be in total meltdown, Virgin and Stagecoach got the East Coast so wrong it has been taken away. plenty of complaints around about South Western.

There are stories that the GTR bid included less driver only than the other bidders and their proposals for Thameslink were less ambitious than the other bidders. Its also rumoured that GTR wanted to defer the new timetable until December but the DfT wouldn't let them.

I am not saying that GTR havent made mistakes but its very difficult to know how much of the blame should be laid at their door and how much at the door of DfT.

 

[bramling]

If GTR was replaced by a competent operator, then TL wouldn't have been such a big mess. There is no point trying to 'get rid of Thameslink' - all effort should go into trying to make the service work to unlock more capacity at terminals such as Kings Cross.

Any guarantee it will ever work to a level of reliability regarded as acceptable?

I can guarantee that, right now, people in Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire (and it seems Kent too) wish they'd never heard of Thameslink. The last few days have given a taste of what the future will look like, and people are horrified. People have been waiting 2 or 3 hours for a train to/from certain destinations.

 

[AM9]

TfL should not have control of this service due to the fact it is intercity and not every service is a Metro. ...

Thameslink, (in the sense of all services) is an outer suburban railway network with some higher density services closer to London. The outer services are not 'Inter-City', even if they stop at stations in settlements of City status. In the peak, all of the services (even as far as Peterboro and Ely) are predominately serving commuter dormitory locations. Off-peak, they act as regional services with a mixture of tourist/leisure traffic and other casual travel journeys. Inter-City services are with the exception of Exeter, all outside the old Network South-East area and their commuter traffic is generally much less than other business and leisure travel.

 

[Tobberz]

Although Thameslink isn't exactly accountable to its users as it is, as a resident of a commuter town on Thameslink, I wouldn't want to give the London Mayor control of the trains I use, when I cannot vote for him or influence TFL in any way.

 

[Harbornite]

No...

 

[Agent_Squash]

Any guarantee it will ever work to a level of reliability regarded as acceptable?

I can guarantee that, right now, people in Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire (and it seems Kent too) wish they'd never heard of Thameslink. The last few days have given a taste of what the future will look like, and people are horrified. People have been waiting 2 or 3 hours for a train to/from certain destinations.

If we never tried anything new, nothing would ever improve.

That said, looking at tomorrow's cancellations is a depressing sight...

 

[Agent_Squash]

Just what competent operator do you have in mind? Northern appears to be in total meltdown, Virgin and Stagecoach got the East Coast so wrong it has been taken away. plenty of complaints around about South Western.

There are stories that the GTR bid included less driver only than the other bidders and their proposals for Thameslink were less ambitious than the other bidders. Its also rumoured that GTR wanted to defer the new timetable until December but the DfT wouldn't let them.

I am not saying that GTR havent made mistakes but its very difficult to know how much of the blame should be laid at their door and how much at the door of DfT.

GTR appear to struggle to get their message across to the public. While they may have wanted to defer, they couldn't and didn't inform the public that it would be this bad.

 

[Steve Harris]

Thameslink, (in the sense of all services) is an outer suburban railway network with some higher density services closer to London. The outer services are not 'Inter-City', even if they stop at stations in settlements of City status. In the peak, all of the services (even as far as Peterboro and Ely) are predominately serving commuter dormitory locations. Off-peak, they act as regional services with a mixture of tourist/leisure traffic and other casual travel journeys. Inter-City services are with the exception of Exeter, all outside the old Network South-East area and their commuter traffic is generally much less than other business and leisure travel.

Hmmm... I must be dreaming that London - Norwich services used to be branded Inter-City.

And for those of us with a memory of a elephant, London - Kings Lynn too. I'll give you the City of Ely has expanded with loads of commuters who now travel to London and Cambridge, which has also grown with 'London workers'. Making car travel in the city a very slow long winded affair.

A bit like a Thameslink timetable really !!


As for Tfl taking over. Simple answer is no. As the places ThamesStink servs are nothing to do with London !!

If you want Tfl to take over then i suggest you build a new orbitiol motorway around the coast of East Anglia, Kent, Sussex and Hampshire and cut through Berks, Bucks and Northants and call everything inside it "London" !

We need a goverment department to take over and kick butt !!

Oh. Hang on.

A goverment department is already involved. Argh, no wonder its gone tits up !!!!

 

[AM9]

Hmmm... I must be dreaming that London - Norwich services used to be branded Inter-City. ...

I remember that the Norwich trains ran under the Inter-City colours way back in the '70s but my post referred specifically to those cities that are served by Thameslink branded services and those that fall within the NSE area, - Norwich doesn't fit either of those definitions.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I blame Sir Edward Watkin.

 

[Steve Harris]

I remember that the Norwich trains ran under the Inter-City colours way back in the '70s but my post referred specifically to those cities that are served by Thameslink branded services and those that fall within the NSE area, - Norwich doesn't fit either of those definitions.

Correct, However i was on about the service from Nowich to London which did also serve Ipswich, Colchester and Chelmesford which i believe used to be in the NSE area !!????


And as a sidebar, As you mentioned Ely.
Ely to London used to be a Inter-City branded service in the 80's which were hauled by Stratford Class 47's and if you want to get really technical. (Once the wires went up south of Cambridge), they would change loco's at Cambridge to a Willesdon Class 86 !

And Ely is not yet ThamesStink as it currently stops at Cambridge. Or am i wrong on that tooo ????

 

[causton]

Correct, However i was on about the service from Nowich to London which did also serve Ipswich, Colchester and Chelmesford which i believe used to be in the NSE area !!????


And as a sidebar, As you mentioned Ely.
Ely to London used to be a Inter-City branded service in the 80's which were hauled by Stratford Class 47's and if you want to get really technical. (Once the wires went up south of Cambridge), they would change loco's at Cambridge to a Willesdon Class 86 !

And Ely is not yet ThamesStink as it currently stops at Cambridge. Or am i wrong on that tooo ????

What you are talking about is still nothing to do with what anyone else is talking about.

This thread is about Thameslink, not services in the 1980s hauled by class 47s.

Yes they were Inter-City services, well done, have a point.

Meanwhile, the rest of us in this thread shall keep to talking about Thameslink trains as this is what the thread is about!!!

 

[jon0844]

GTR appear to struggle to get their message across to the public. While they may have wanted to defer, they couldn't and didn't inform the public that it would be this bad.

TOCs usually dislike blaming others in public, as they presumably want to have a chance in future bids (yeah, yeah, blind bidding and all that - but, come on, they all fear being rejected legitimately or not so they have to be careful not to bite the hand that feeds it).

 

[rebmcr]

Sadiq Khan is staying quiet probably due to TfL digging their own grave in debts, topping a billion pounds now. Spending spending spending without covering the costs won't come across well for the Labour Party.

Cancelling the Jubilee and Northern line upgrades, and refinancing a leaseback on the Crossrail fleet is definitely a) cutting spending, and b) covering costs.

Pull the other one!

 

[Steve Harris]

What you are talking about is still nothing to do with what anyone else is talking about.

This thread is about Thameslink, not services in the 1980s hauled by class 47s.

Yes they were Inter-City services, well done, have a point.

Meanwhile, the rest of us in this thread shall keep to talking about Thameslink trains as this is what the thread is about!!!

Which in my first post was i was talking about in both my posts.

However, in my second post i was merely replying to a point which was made by someone else who was already dragging things off topic !

Which you yourself seem to be doing by replying to me, considering i can receive PM's.

I wont say no more than that at it seems you cant get the term 'right to reply' and i dont want to drag this thread more off topic.