Selly Oak to Avonmouth Routeing?

[somebody]

Hi all, first post!

Saw on here that a new routeing guide was out so I had a look, and I'm quite confused about a route I've been planning to take over the next few weeks- from Selly Oak to Avonmouth.

The Routeing Guide states no doubling back, which makes sense in most situations, except to get a train from Selly Oak to anywhere near Bristol requires heading backwards to either University or Birmingham New Street. But this isn't allowed, and there isn't an easement I could find.

I thought I'd then find the answer by checking the Online Journey Planner on the NRE site, which then informs me there's no way to do this journey without buying two tickets!

That can't be right, can it?

 

[mathmo]

Whilst before the new routeing guide came out, this was discussed quite recently: see this thread. But I don't know very much at all about Birmingham stations and travel round there so I'll leave this to the experts!

In fact, Birmingham Group seems to be a valid routing point for this journey (same fare as Selly Oak - Avonmouth) and I think this means this doubling back is allowed - but don't quote me on that!

 

[tony_mac]

The Nationalrail journey planner says that direct services from Birmingham to Bristol don't go via Fiveways or University, but this may well be wrong. It's certainly wrong on some other journeys that I looked at.

You could change at University, though.

Although I am getting something a bit weird; I tried University to Avonmouth.

The 10:36 departure, change at Cheltenham and Bristol TM is shown as needing more than 1 ticket - which looks like University to Bristol, and Bristol to Avonmouth.
However the same trains from Cheltenham to Avonmouth are fine on 1 ticket.

This may be why some journeys are showing more than 1 ticket needed, when it isn't.
...
It shows half of the journeys from Selly Oak to Bristol via Birmingham as being ok, but seemingly all journeys from University via Birmingham as being ok.
I wouldn't worry about it anyway!

 

[somebody]

You may well be right that some trains don't pass through Five Ways or University, but some definitely do- those that don't must use the X-city diversion route. University is an oddity as some longer distance trains call there but as you said they still show more than one ticket is required!!

I must be missing a rule here somewhere?

 

[tony_mac]

no, I don't think so, you have probably spent more time looking at the rules than they have!

It thinks that the :12 departures from New Street to Bristol pass through Selly Oak, but not University. The :42 departures apparently don't pass through either.

...and none of them go through Northfield, but they all go through Longbridge....

 

[First class]

I've looked at some random head codes of Birmingham-Bristol trains. All of the ones I viewed go as follows:

BirminghamNS[BHM]2208	2212	2209	2217	7B	5	 
Five Ways [FWY]	Pass	2216	Pass	No log	 	 	 
University [UNI]Pass	2217	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Selly Oak [SLY]	Pass	2218	Pass	2223	 	5	 
Bournville [BRV]Pass	2218	Pass	No log	 	 	 
LIFODWJ	 	Pass	2219	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Kings Norton [KNN]Pass	2220	Pass	2226	 	6	 
Northfield [NFD]Pass	2221	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Longbridge [LOB]Pass	2222	Pass	2228	 	6	 
LONBRS	 	Pass	2223	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Barnt Green [BTG]Pass	2225	Pass	2230	 	4	 
Bromsgrove [BMV]Pass	2228	Pass	2232	 	4	 
STKWKSJ	 	Pass	2231	Pass	2234	 	3	 
ABTSWDJ	 	Pass	2238	Pass	2241	 	3	 
Ashchurch [ASC] Pass	2244	Pass	2248	 	3	 
Cheltenham[CNM]	2251	2253	2254	2255	 	2	 
BNWDJN	 	Pass	2259	Pass	2300	 	1	 
GLOSTYJ	 	Pass	2300	Pass	No log	 	 	 
STNDSHJ	 	Pass	2304	Pass	2305	 	1	 
CHFIELD	 	Pass	2312	Pass	2314	 	2	 
YATEMDL	 	Pass	2316	Pass	2317	 	1	 
Yate [YAE]	Pass	2316	Pass	No log	 	 	 
YATES	 	Pass	2317	Pass	No log	 	 	 
WSTLGHJ	 	Pass	2321	Pass	2320	 	-1	 
Bristol Pk[BPW]	2326	2328	2325	2328	2	On time	 
FILTONJ	 	Pass	2329	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Filton AW [FIT]	Pass	2330	Pass	2329	 	-1	 
STPLNAR	 	Pass	2334	Pass	No log	 	 	 
DRDAYSJ	 	Pass	2337	Pass	2334	 	-3	 
BRSTLEJ	 	Pass	2338	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Bristol TM [BRI]2345	 	2338	 	3	-6

As you can see, this particular train DOES pass through Fiveways, University and Selly Oak...

BirminghamNS[BHM]2208	2212	2209	2217	7B	5	 
Five Ways [FWY]	Pass	2216	Pass	No log	 	 	 
University [UNI]Pass	2217	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Selly Oak [SLY]	Pass	2218	Pass	2223	 	5	 
Bournville [BRV]Pass	2218	Pass	No log	 	 	 
LIFODWJ	 	Pass	2219	Pass	No log	 	 	 
Kings Norton [KNN]Pass	2220	Pass	2226	 	6

This is the same route for at least 5 other trains I sampled.

 

[tony_mac]

But National Rail journey planner says that it doesn't, hence it doesn't know that you might be doubling-back through University.

The Northfield / Longbridge thing shows that the data is obviously wrong - there is no route through one and not the other.

Birmingham New Street (BHM) to Bristol Temple Meads (BRI) avoiding University (Birmingham) (UNI)

Outward: Thursday 09 July, 2009

    1       2       3       4       5
    BHM     BHM     BHM     BHM     BHM
    BRI     BRI     BRI     BRI     BRI
    20:12   20:42   21:12   22:12   23:10
    21:38   22:19   22:41   23:45   07:08
    1:26    1:37    1:29    1:33    7:58

although all of the stations I checked that show 'no log', are the same stations that the journey planner says the train doesn't pass through.

 

[John @ home]

You may well be right that some trains don't pass through Five Ways or University, but some definitely do- those that don't must use the X-city diversion route. University is an oddity as some longer distance trains call there but as you said they still show more than one ticket is required!!

I must be missing a rule here somewhere?

We debated some months ago this particular issue of the validity of routes where a train runs non-stop through one a number of routes some but not all of which are valid according to the routeing guide. On that occasion it was the validity of Sheffield - Leeds route Not Doncaster tickets on the 2359 Sheffield - Leeds. This train ran non-stop Sheffield - Leeds and sometimes, but not always, went via Doncaster. The web sites refused to sell a route Not Doncaster ticket for this train. XC have now resolved that issue by terminating the train at Sheffield.

In this instance, I suspect an approach to ATOC seeking a definition of valid Selly Oak to Avonmouth routes may well produce a positive response. The ‘disputed routeing procedure’ is described on page 7 here http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/instructions.pdf

John

 

[tony_mac]

...As you can see, this particular train DOES pass through Fiveways, University and Selly Oak...
This is the same route for at least 5 other trains I sampled.

I think that the :42 departures from New Street don't.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A quick search on my Fastis machine at work shows that a Selly Oak-Avonmouth ticket is valid on the xx12 departures from Selly Oak, but not the xx42 departures, in both cases via New Street.

 

[somebody]

That's very very odd, as all the Selly Oak departures* call at all the stations up to New Street, so there shouldn't be any difference there!

I shall contact ATOC and see what they say, quite interesting really. I'm not worried about carrying out the journey, especially as I can't buy a ticket for it according to the Journey Planner, would just be nice to know!

Thanks to all for their inputs so far.

*Apologies, after reading the above I thought the issue was with the Selly Oak departures, not the New Street ones. My bad!

 

[tony_mac]

The XX:42 from New Street doesn't go through Selly Oak, it takes a different route to Kings Norton apparently.

The journey planner will, however, let you double-back from University or Five ways on any service as it doesn't think the trains pass through those stations, although it does know that the XX:12 goes through Selly Oak.

I think that there is also something very weird going on at the Avonmouth end; you can at least check the prices of the 'multiple' tickets to find out where it thinks you are not permitted.

(To avoid confusion XX:42 from New Street would be the connection for the XX:12 from Selly Oak)

 

[bnsf734]

I put this jouney into Advantix using July 25 as a travel date and it comes up with a fare of £14.00 (CC Advance single). The London Midland website concurs with this - I read this as accepting that only one ticket is required.

NRE website however states that 2 tickets are required - a £14.00 CC single and a single Selly Oak to Brum NS. This looks like a discrepancy between booking systems.

Confused - I am!!

Calv

 

[clagmonster]

Looking at this in detail, Birmingham group and Barnt Green are appropriate routing points for Selly Oak. Bristol group is the only routing point for Avonmouth.
Some trains run from New St to Kings Norton via Camp Hill, and therefore if you used one of these from New St you ticket would be valid as you would not have doubled back. Unfortunately, which trains these are are not officially in the public domain. A list is available on the PSUL website at http://www.avoe05.dsl.pipex.com/2009.htm which I quote below:
"Birmingham Grand Junction - St Andrew's Junction - Bordesley Junction - Lifford East Junction - Kings Norton Junction (51,57) CC [partly common with adjacent entries]
0542 SuX Birmingham New Street - Cardiff Central
0642 SuX Birmingham New Street - Paignton / Plymouth
D 1900 SSuX Bristol Temple Meads - Manchester Piccadilly [from 18 May 2009]
D 1817 SuO Paignton / D 2000 SuO, 2000 SSuX Bristol Temple Meads - Birmingham New Street
D 2100 SSuX Cardiff Central - Birmingham New Street [until 15 May 2009]
D 2008 SuX Paignton - Birmingham New Street [until 15 May 2009]
D 1555 SuO Penzance - Birmingham New Street
D1 1825 SO, 1825 SSuX Plymouth - Birmingham New Street [D1 = from 28 March until 10 May 2009]
D 1905 SuO Plymouth / D 2200/2210 SuO Bristol Temple Meads - Birmingham New Street
D2 0956 SO, D1 1554 SO Worcester Shrub Hill - Birmingham New Street [D1 = from 28 March 2009; D2 = from 11 April 2009]
CrossCountry trains from Manchester Piccadilly to the Cheltenham line except Sundays 1 February until 22 March and from 8 November2009
CrossCountry SuO trains from the Cheltenham line to Manchester Piccadilly except Sundays 1 February until 22 March and from 8 November2009"
I would advise asking station staff for details, however.
As for other trains from New St, sadly you can't use these as there is no applicable easement, and Five Ways and University are not members of the Birmingham group.
Using map CE, travel would also be allowed from Birmingham via Smethwick and Worcester to Bristol.

At the Bristol end, you are able to double back to Temple Meads as Stapleton Rd, Lawrence Hill and Temple Meads are all members of the Bristol group.`

 

[tony_mac]

There is also the odd case of the 10:36 University - Avonmouth

requires the purchase of more than 1 ticket, as the journey cannot be completed with a single ticket.
UNI BRI Anytime Single £37.50
BRI AVN Anytime Day Single £2.00

Fri 10 Jul
University (Birmingham) (UNI) to Cheltenham Spa (CNM)
 Departs 	Arrives 	Duration
10:36 	11:10 	0:34

Cheltenham Spa (CNM) to Bristol Temple Meads (BRI)
Departs 	Arrives 	Duration
11:25 	12:13 	0:48

Bristol Temple Meads (BRI) to  Avonmouth (AVN)
Departs 	Arrives 	Duration
12:34 	13:02 	0:28

Yet the following is ok

CNM AVN Off-Peak Day Single £9.90

Fri 10 Jul
Cheltenham Spa (CNM) to Bristol Temple Meads (BRI)
Departs 	Arrives 	Duration
11:25 	12:13 	0:48

Bristol Temple Meads (BRI) to Avonmouth (AVN)
Departs 	Arrives 	Duration
12:34 	13:02 	0:28

Any idea what might cause that?

 

[87015]

As for other trains from New St, sadly you can't use these as there is no applicable easement, and Five Ways and University are not members of the Birmingham group.

Maybe not as a technically, but you will have NO problems doing so via New St on any train. I've done it many times and never once had an eybrow raised, let alone been challenged. They can't force you to only use the xx42 and not the xx12 from New St when the differences (which change if anything is up the spout anyway) are not in the public domain.

And I'll ask again, how are you supposed to do it from stations between Redditch and Kings Norton? The 'no doubling back' is nonsense in this situation and is treated as such locally.

 

[clagmonster]

In practice, I have no doubt that you are right, I was only quoting the official rules. This case, along with a number of others are particularly silly, as I don't see how an ordinary punter is supposed to know that there are two routes from New St to Kings Norton that a train bound for the south west could take, let alone know which trains take which route.
For Redditch and Averchurch doubling back via New St is officially valid through an easement, as has been previously mentioned.
For stations between Kings Norton and Barnt Green the only way that would be officially valid would be into New St then via Smethwick, Kiddy and Worcester.
I am not at all surprised by your experiences of it never being questioned, however. In fact, I am pleased as it shows guards still have common sense over such matters and is yet another exaple of how the routing guide is not fit for purpose.

 

[somebody]

Dear Sam

Thank you for your enquiry regarding a journey from Selly Oak to Avonmouth. I am pleased to confirm that travel via Birmingham New Street is allowed. Although this means there is a double back through Selly Oak, this is an exception to the rule for this particular journey. For some reason our retailing systems do not allow this double back if you travel via University and Cheltenham and we are looking into this matter for you as the same exception to the rule should apply.

Thank you for taking the time to write. I hope this information is helpful.

Yours sincerely

xxx
Customer Relations Manager

===

 

[Mojo]

If that is the case, then why isn't there an easement published in the RG? I first mentioned this over a year ago and no action taken so far... don't hold your breath, but in the meantime we can be rest assured that common sense prevails amongst people checking tickets, as demonstrated by the comment from 87015.

 

[devon_metro]

Just blag it anyway, how truly unreasonably are the staff if they say otherwise!

 

[Bayum]

All XC trains towards Bristol, pass through Selly Oak... But don't stop there... Which I think is what the problem was... If travelling via University, you can obviously get on a XC Turbostar to Cheltenham, and then get a XC 220/1 or HST from Cheltenham to Bristol!

 

[Mojo]

All XC trains towards Bristol, pass through Selly Oak... But don't stop there... Which I think is what the problem was...

Only the trains at xx12 do, which is what lead to the confusion.

If travelling via University, you can obviously get on a XC Turbostar to Cheltenham, and then get a XC 220/1 or HST from Cheltenham to Bristol!

If you did that though you'd be doubling back, however the reply from ATOC has cleared the issue up, and it is permitted to travel as far north as New Street when going south.

 

[Bayum]

So, if only the ones at xx:12 do that... Where do all the other ones go =S

 

[somebody]

Bayum - Camp Hill line to Kings Norton.

They seem to have updated the NRE site as well now.

Doesn't explain how they figured this out from the Routeing Guide - assuming they'll just update something for the next version?

 

[clagmonster]

Via Proof House Jn and Camp Hill.

 

[Railjet]

If that is the case, then why isn't there an easement published in the RG? I first mentioned this over a year ago and no action taken so far... don't hold your breath, but in the meantime we can be rest assured that common sense prevails amongst people checking tickets, as demonstrated by the comment from 87015.

There is now (I haven't seen it before) an easement (300370) which states: "Customers travelling from Selly Oak, Bournville, Kings Norton, Northfield and Longbridge via Bromsgrove may travel via Barnt Green. This easement applies in both directions."

Can anyone make any sense of this? :???:

 

[Mojo]

This is in the new August 2009 RG and didn't exist when I posted my reply, it presumably comes from the OP's email to ATOC.

Makes no sense to me as passengers Selly Oak to Longbridge via Bromsgrove may already travel via Barnt Green. It also doesn't apply for Five Ways or University (presumably they want people to get off at Cheltenham and change for the Cardiff - Nottingham service).

Surely it should say something similar to the easement for Bristol local stations: "Journeys to and from Barnt Green to Five Ways inclusive may doubleback via Birmingham New Street."

 

[323235]

I think that the :42 departures from New Street don't.

the xx:42 goes via the Camp Hill avoiding line

 

[somebody]

This is in the new August 2009 RG and didn't exist when I posted my reply, it presumably comes from the OP's email to ATOC.

Makes no sense to me as passengers Selly Oak to Longbridge via Bromsgrove may already travel via Barnt Green. It also doesn't apply for Five Ways or University (presumably they want people to get off at Cheltenham and change for the Cardiff - Nottingham service).

Surely it should say something similar to the easement for Bristol local stations: "Journeys to and from Barnt Green to Five Ways inclusive may doubleback via Birmingham New Street."

That either makes absolutely no sense, or is written in a daft way! I can only assume that they mean you can travel to New Street and then on trains that pass through Barnt Green, ie all ones to Bristol, regardless of the route through B'ham.

 

[Old Timer]

I doubt very, very much that any of the Guards on the local services would say anything to someone travelling in/out from New St to one of the Cross City south stations, bearing in mind it is all but impossible to do such a journey with the current train service pattern.