Deliberately not touching out when using oyster pay as you go

[hi2u_uk]

I want to tavel from Blackheath to Three bridges . I will have an oyster pay as you go ticket and a paper ticket from gatwick to three bridges
Am i allowed to touch in at Blackheath and not touch out at gatwick . The issue is that in order to touch out with oyster I would have to exit the train, go all the way to the ticket barriers then exit the station and enter again with the paper ticket which will make me look strange as i will be making the trip 2-3 days a week.
Instead i plan to log in to the oyster onlin-e website and enter an exit staton.
Is this allowed ? any other solutions which do not involve me having to get off the train in order to touch out

 

[PeterC]

You can't "self resolve" journeys like that. In the opposite direction you must touch in.
More information here: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/incomplete-journeys#on-this-page-1

The only way to combine Oyster and an extension ticket without needing to leave the train is to load a travelcard.

 

[Hadders]

If you are using Oyster PYAG or Contactless you must touch in and out at the start and end of every journey. In your example that would mean leaving the train at Gatwick Airport to touch out/in. The only exception to this is if you hold a travelcard season on your Oyster card to Gatwick Airport.

Going on line to correct a missed touch too frequently could arose suspicion. Also if you are making a return journey you won't be touching in at Gatwick Airport and would then be travelling without a ticket for which you could receive a Penalty Fare or be reported for prosecution.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If you are using Oyster PYAG or Contactless you must touch in and out at the start and end of every journey. In your example that would mean leaving the train at Gatwick Airport to touch out/in. The only exception to this is if you hold a travelcard season on your Oyster card to Gatwick Airport.

Going on line to correct a missed touch too frequently could arose suspicion. Also if you are making a return journey you won't be touching in at Gatwick Airport and would then be travelling without a ticket for which you could receive a Penalty Fare or be reported for prosecution.

On that point, you are limited to I think three requests per calendar month to resolve incomplete journeys. Furthermore any refunds made using this process are discretionary, and if a pattern is detected that suggests misuse then not only would there be no refunds there might be broader interest from revenue protection types.

In terms of the OP worrying about looking strange by exiting and then immediately re-entering the station, I get that but I wouldn't worry - I'm sure it's not unknown at Gatwick (ditto at East Croydon, where modest savings can be had for journeys to/from Gatwick when using Oyster/contactless if one does this out-in shuffle).

 

[MikeWh]

I want to tavel from Blackheath to Three bridges . I will have an oyster pay as you go ticket and a paper ticket from gatwick to three bridges
Am i allowed to touch in at Blackheath and not touch out at gatwick . The issue is that in order to touch out with oyster I would have to exit the train, go all the way to the ticket barriers then exit the station and enter again with the paper ticket which will make me look strange as i will be making the trip 2-3 days a week.
Instead i plan to log in to the oyster onlin-e website and enter an exit staton.
Is this allowed ? any other solutions which do not involve me having to get off the train in order to touch out

You don't say what time of day you'll be making the journeys, but assuming commuting at peak times as it's 2-3 days a week, this isn't the cheapest way to do it. All fares via London but not Underground.

BKH to GTW Oyster single £14.70x2 + GTW to TBD Anytime return £3.40 = £32.80.
BKH to TBD Anytime return £29.90.
BKH to ECR Anytime return £11.70 + ECR to TBD Anytime return £14.80 = £26.50.
BKH to ECR Oyster single £5.20x2 + ECR to TBD Anytime return £14.80 = £25.20.

 

[hi2u_uk]

Its very inconvenient to leave the train just to do this touch in and out thing at gatwick or east croydon especially if i am on a direct train that is gong to three bridges. Im surprised that there isnt another solution plus i do think the gateline staff will wonder about me if im seen to be doing this regularly .

 

[Royston Vasey]

Its very inconvenient to leave the train just to do this touch in and out thing at gatwick or east croydon especially if i am on a direct train that is gong to three bridges. Im surprised that there isnt another solution plus i do think the gateline staff will wonder about me if im seen to be doing this regularly .

There is a solution. Buy a ticket from Blackheath to Three Bridges rather than gaming the system and complaining about the inconvenience of doing it.

 

[OwlMan]

Its very inconvenient to leave the train just to do this touch in and out thing at gatwick or east croydon especially if i am on a direct train that is gong to three bridges. Im surprised that there isnt another solution plus i do think the gateline staff will wonder about me if im seen to be doing this regularly .

You have the choice of using your Oyster and touching out at the appropriate station or if this is too inconvenient using paper tickets.

 

[LAX54]

There is a solution. Buy a ticket from Blackheath to Three Bridges rather than gaming the system and complaining about the inconvenience of doing it.

Could it be argued that it is two seperate journeys ? 1) Blackheath to Gatwick, and 2).. Gatwick to 3 Bridges, hence the need to tap out ?

 

[robbeech]

Its very inconvenient to leave the train just to do this touch in and out thing at gatwick or east croydon especially if i am on a direct train that is gong to three bridges. Im surprised that there isnt another solution plus i do think the gateline staff will wonder about me if im seen to be doing this regularly .

Others have given the best advice but if you must do this then I’d say that it absolutely will not be a problem to touch out and get back in with a ticket. At stations like this it will not be uncommon at all.
What would be really useful generally would be Oyster readers on the platforms at stations at the edge of Oyster’s validity so people could step off the train and back on but unfortunately we don’t have this is many places and it’s not in their interest to spend the money doing so when there’s a good enough infrastructure already in place.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Could it be argued that it is two seperate journeys ? 1) Blackheath to Gatwick, and 2).. Gatwick to 3 Bridges, hence the need to tap out ?

Blackheath to Three Bridges via Waterloo London Bridge or Victoria are valid routes so one journey as far as the railway is concerned?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Guessing the OP wants to travel peak out and off peak back, oyster PAYG fare £14.70 + £8.30. Off peak return to Three Bridges is £3.30 = £26.30.

Anytime return for the full journey is £29.90.

So I see what they are trying to achieve and have some sympathy, but the cheaper combination is a fortunate consequence of the fragmented ticketing system, but if it wasn't fragmented the loophole wouldn't be there, as for all split ticketing.

There are some times you get lucky (zonal ticket plus point to point, no need to stop there), some where you have to make a compromise (two consecutive point to point, train needs to call) and some times like this, unluckily there's no mechanism to stay on the same train for that fare, and I can't blame TFL or the TOCs for not appeasing this workaround.

I'd be weighing up whether the need to change and loss of time is worth £3.60 a day. I probably wouldn't bother but that's just me. It would all add up, done regularly

 

[Calchas]

I have to resolve quite a few unfinished journeys every month, definitely more than three.

Most happen because they leave the barriers open at rush hour where I work and the current of people tends to push you along quite quickly so I tend to tap the card and keep walking; half the time it fails to register. The other one happens interchanging from long distance national rail to intra London national rail at CLJ where there’s no on platform reader.

I haven’t had any trouble. Always have to ring up though, it doesn’t work online. Whether that really saves me time over walking to find a ticket barrier, who knows. YMMV.

 

[JonathanH]

Coulsdon South has Oyster / Contactless readers on the platform that can be used if you quickly board / alight from a train. This may be another possibility but there is a significant time penalty for travelling via this route rather than the Quarry Line.

 

[hi2u_uk]

can i just check what is the charge if i touch in during peak time and dont touch out

 

[hi2u_uk]

Coulsdon South has Oyster / Contactless readers on the platform that can be used if you quickly board / alight from a train. This may be another possibility but there is a significant time penalty for travelling via this route rather than the Quarry Line.

ive never been on a train that st

Guessing the OP wants to travel peak out and off peak back, oyster PAYG fare £14.70 + £8.30. Off peak return to Three Bridges is £3.30 = £26.30.

Anytime return for the full journey is £29.90.

So I see what they are trying to achieve and have some sympathy, but the cheaper combination is a fortunate consequence of the fragmented ticketing system, but if it wasn't fragmented the loophole wouldn't be there, as for all split ticketing.

There are some times you get lucky (zonal ticket plus point to point, no need to stop there), some where you have to make a compromise (two consecutive point to point, train needs to call) and some times like this, unluckily there's no mechanism to stay on the same train for that fare, and I can't blame TFL or the TOCs for not appeasing this workaround.

I'd be weighing up whether the need to change and loss of time is worth £3.60 a day. I probably wouldn't bother but that's just me. It would all add up, done regularly

im traveling out peak and returning peak on the following day although there may be times when i travel out peak and return peak on the same day. Its also a matter of time as id be late if i have to get off the train which is going direct just to touch out and re-enter the same station

 

[hi2u_uk]

Others have given the best advice but if you must do this then I’d say that it absolutely will not be a problem to touch out and get back in with a ticket. At stations like this it will not be uncommon at all.
What would be really useful generally would be Oyster readers on the platforms at stations at the edge of Oyster’s validity so people could step off the train and back on but unfortunately we don’t have this is many places and it’s not in their interest to spend the money doing so when there’s a good enough infrastructure already in place.

yes i have been looking for oyster readers on the platform at east croydon and gatwick but cant find them. The other silly thing in my opinion is that south of gatwick the barriers dont accept oyster card but they accept key cards (which are accepted on buses in that area) I've no idea why national rail isnt more integrated with regards to all these smart cards. I also dont know why the barriers dont accept a contactless bank card (hopefully at a cheaper price than a paper ticket )

 

[Tetchytyke]

Because they don't.

If you do not touch in or touch out you will be charged a maximum fare. If you do it repeatedly on Contactless your card will be blacklisted. If you do it on Oyster you will find that refunds are discretionary.

If you want to save money this way, there is a time penalty. Your choice.

 

[Joe Paxton]

If you want to save money this way, there is a time penalty. Your choice.

hi2u_uk, it really is as simple as this. You can't have it all.

 

[kieron]

any other solutions which do not involve me having to get off the train in order to touch out

There could be a solution along the lines of "get some different tickets", but we'd need a bit more information to help.

If you're planning to go each way on the same day via central London at peak times, even a zone 1-4 day travelcard and a boundary zone 4-Three Bridges day return would be cheaper than Oyster to Gatwick and a paper return from there.

Most of the things requested on this post could be relevant if you're looking for ways to save money on a Blackheath-Three Bridges rail journey.

 

[JonathanH]

yes i have been looking for oyster readers on the platform at east croydon and gatwick but cant find them.

There aren't any Oyster readers on the platform at either East Croydon or Gatwick Airport and there is no need to install any.

The other silly thing in my opinion is that south of gatwick the barriers dont accept oyster card but they accept key cards (which are accepted on buses in that area)

It isn't silly at all. The extension of Oyster to Gatwick was the result of too many people thinking Gatwick was in London and turning up there with Oyster. The fare structure for Oyster and paper tickets is completely different.

The Key is set up against the paper fare structure.

The railway is not set up to accept the revenue loss of people choosing the better of two completely different fare structures. It would appear very unlikely that Oyster will be extended to anywhere else on or just off the Brighton line.

I've no idea why national rail isnt more integrated with regards to all these smart cards. I also dont know why the barriers dont accept a contactless bank card (hopefully at a cheaper price than a paper ticket )

See above. The railway has an expectation of a certain level of revenue and it is government policy for that revenue to increase. It won't reduce fares to allow smartcards to offer 'cheaper prices than paper tickets'.

There will be winners and losers from any future change to train fares but the overall fare take needs to be the same or greater.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

people thinking Gatwick was in London

The name London Gatwick doesn't help... (the only London airports that are actually in Greater London are Heathrow and City anyway, so it makes little sense that Gatwick has an Oyster/contactless option whereas Stansted, Luton and Southend don't).

 

[JonathanH]

The name London Gatwick doesn't help... (the only London airports that are actually in Greater London are Heathrow and City anyway, so it makes little sense that Gatwick has an Oyster/contactless option whereas Stansted, Luton and Southend don't).

Extending Oyster to Gatwick has helped relieve crowds and queues at the ticket machines there. Stansted, Luton and Southend are much further out of London.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Extending Oyster to Gatwick has helped relieve crowds and queues at the ticket machines there. Stansted, Luton and Southend are much further out of London.

Whilst the crowds thing is undoubtedly true, Luton is 44km as the crow flies from Charing Cross (the 'centre' of London) and Gatwick is 40km. Plus it's possible to get to Luton in 20 mins from a London terminal (with EMT), whereas Gatwick takes at least 25-30 minutes on the fastest trains.

Stansted is 49km from Charing Cross and Southend is 57km, plus the train service to both is a lot slower. But Luton is definitely one where I am a little baffled as to why it isn't on the Oyster/contactless network whilst Gatwick is.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Extending Oyster to Gatwick has helped relieve crowds and queues at the ticket machines there. Stansted, Luton and Southend are much further out of London.

I'd say Gatwick is more enmeshed in the rail network of London (specifically south London) than either Stansted or Luton airports are.

However IIRC there was a push to try and get Luton airport into the Oyster Pay-as-you-go system a few years ago, but nothing came of it. I imagine one issue was that if Luton Airport Parkway was going to be part of the Oyster PAYG area, then so too would Luton station itself - there are lots of commuters from Luton to London, and being part of the Oyster PAYG area would I think result in the TOC losing a degree of flexibility over pricing between Luton and London.

(Also with Oyster, there are some technical limitations - at least with first generation cards - over the maximum number of zones that can be implemented, which might possibly also have been a contributory issue.)

 

[JonathanH]

Whilst the crowds thing is undoubtedly true, Luton is 44km as the crow flies from Charing Cross (the 'centre' of London) and Gatwick is 40km. Plus it's possible to get to Luton in 20 mins from a London terminal (with EMT), whereas Gatwick takes at least 25-30 minutes on the fastest trains.

Stansted is 49km from Charing Cross and Southend is 57km, plus the train service to both is a lot slower. But Luton is definitely one where I am a little baffled as to why it isn't on the Oyster/contactless network whilst Gatwick is.

St Albans is the obvious reason why Oyster hasn't been extended to Luton Airport Parkway together with experience of the issues extension of Oyster to Gatwick created.

I imagine that the operators are regretting not limiting the extension of Oyster to just Gatwick Express which is probably what they should have done.

 

[Joe Paxton]

St Albans is the obvious reason why Oyster hasn't been extended to Luton Airport Parkway together with experience of the issues extension of Oyster to Gatwick created.

I imagine that the operators are regretting not limiting the extension of Oyster to just Gatwick Express which is probably what they should have done.

What issues are those re the Gatwick extension?

(Limiting Oyster & contactless to just GatEx would have been very confusing adn possibly unworkable - see for example how the imminent arrival of Oyster/contactless acceptance at Heathrow for TfL Rail/Crossrail has basically forced the hand of Heathrow Express to start accepting it soon; also see the chaotic week or so in November 2007 when the new franchisee London Midland didn't accept Oyster from Watford Jn whilst the new operator London Overground did - LM sensibly relented and came to an arrangement with TfL.)

 

[MikeWh]

The extension of Oyster to Gatwick was the result of too many people thinking Gatwick was in London and turning up there with Oyster.

Do you have a source for that? AFAIK the DfT were the main driver for that extension and it was for convenience (particularly with contactless) rather than any passenger driven request.

Plus it's possible to get to Luton in 20 mins from a London terminal (with EMT), whereas Gatwick takes at least 25-30 minutes on the fastest trains.

Can you get from Luton Airport Parkway to the actual airport in 10 minutes?

I imagine that the operators are regretting not limiting the extension of Oyster to just Gatwick Express which is probably what they should have done.

If they had done that then the reputation of both the railways and the government would have gone south with every prosecution for ticketless travel issued at Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley and Merstham. Abandoning that idea was one of the few correct decisions that the DfT made.

 

[JonathanH]

What issues are those re the Gatwick extension?

I was thinking of this https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2016/08/oyster-and-gatwick-the-truth/ , this https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2016/08/gatwick-truth-updated/ and this https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2017/08/gatwick-simplification/ and the fact that it is possible for passengers to save money relative to paper fares for some journeys.

 

[JonathanH]

Do you have a source for that? AFAIK the DfT were the main driver for that extension and it was for convenience (particularly with contactless) rather than any passenger driven request.

Happy to be corrected there. I certainly wasn't implying passenger driven request - more an airport / operator one.

If they had done that then the reputation of both the railways and the government would have gone south with every prosecution for ticketless travel issued at Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley and Merstham. Abandoning that idea was one of the few correct decisions that the DfT made.

People turn up at Reigate thinking they can use their Oyster card on a regular basis. Gatwick Express only would have not led to this kind of confusion.