Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Bletchleyite]

1tp2h Holyhead to Llandudno Junction (Valley, Rhosneigr, Ty Croes, Bodorgan, Llanfairpwll, Bangor, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr, Conwy, Llandudno Junction)
1tp2h Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog (Deganwy, Llandudno Junction and all stations)

These used to be on a 3-unit (I think) circuit. Worked quite well as it allowed commuter-time services to be provided on the Valley in both directions.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

When I questioned ATW back in 2013 about lack of Sunday service to Llandudno. The below was the response I got.


Thank you for your correspondence and considered comments.


With reference to there being no services between Llandudno Junction and Llandudno on a Sunday, our timetables are planned several months ahead of the current timetable and discussions between ourselves, rail user groups, Department of Transport and the Welsh Assembly take place to determine the expected passenger loadings. We run our services in accordance with the instruction from the Department of Transport as a result of passenger counts and the above discussion. Therefore, there are no plans presently to run a service on a Sunday during the winter period. However, I have forwarded your correspondence to out Train Planning team for their consideration.


Thank you for contacting Arriva Trains Wales, and if I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.


Yours sincerely






[redacted]

Customer Relations Advisor

Arriva Trains Wales


Tel 08456 061 660

E-mail Customer.Relations@arrivatrainswales.co.uk

Web www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk

Address St Mary’s House, 47 Penarth Road, Cardiff, CF10 5DJ

 

[berneyarms]

In other words it was not a franchise obligation.

One would hope that this will change.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

At the risk of being boring - a simple deal to open Ledbury SB earlier on a Sunday morning - quite recently transformed the usefulness of the Worcester - Hereford (and of course back to Brum) on that day - the cost was a modest increase in signalling staff + OPEX. This "trial" was then seemlessly put into the new LM and LNW Franchise specification and agreement. Not that tricky is it ?

Shall we say - a maximum of £10,000 per annum to staff the line - and maybe another £30,000 to add a passenger service , - either stand alone , or reworked into the (to be known) passenger service. A simple costed option in my book.

The doubling of the H0W service (from 1 to 2 SO round trips- - trial basis by the SRA and then rolled into the Franchise was done eons ago , and those services are better performers than the weekday ones , I am told.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The doubling of the H0W service (from 1 to 2 SO round trips- - trial basis by the SRA and then rolled into the Franchise was done eons ago , and those services are better performers than the weekday ones , I am told.

This is not massively surprising - country branch lines in scenic areas have massive tourist potential - the Swiss realised that years ago, and with societal views tending slightly away from flying somewhere for a weekend and instead going by train for a UK weekend break...

The Conwy Valley could do well with a decent Sunday service if it was publicised right, for instance. Fort Bill also throws business away to the coaches by only having a Sunday train too late to connect onwards to the South East other than by Sleeper - the morning one doesn't run all year.

Actually, lets have a thread on that...there's probably more to discuss:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/do-we-underuse-our-country-branch-lines-for-tourism.163837/

 

[WelshBluebird]

In other words it was not a franchise obligation.

One would hope that this will change.

Pretty much the exact reply ("it isn't defined in the franchise") as I've got from ATW when asking why there aren't any Boxing Day or New Years Day valleys services, and why there isn't a more regular Sunday valleys service!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pretty much the exact reply ("it isn't defined in the franchise") as I've got from ATW when asking why there aren't any Boxing Day or New Years Day valleys services, and why there isn't a more regular Sunday valleys service!

"No Sunday service" really does need to disappear from the timetables nationally. As recently as the late 1990s everything was shut on a Sunday - no longer the case now though where Sunday is often a normal (if truncated) shopping day but by car only!

I know there's the staff issue, but to me the solution to that is that all new staff work Sundays (i.e. all of them unless on leave) until it filters through and it can just step back to being part of the normal rota.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The HoW was cleverly worked out to maximise both "get home from Wales weekend traffic after a break - and of course the return") - as well as more local days out , like walking parties etc.

The revenue per journey was (and is) , accordingly very decent , as you get local and longer distance journeys.

It is astonishing that somewhere like Llandudno , a major resort , does not get Sunday services all year ...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

"No Sunday service" really does need to disappear from the timetables nationally. As recently as the late 1990s everything was shut on a Sunday - no longer the case now though where Sunday is often a normal (if truncated) shopping day but by car only!

I know there's the staff issue, but to me the solution to that is that all new staff work Sundays (i.e. all of them unless on leave) until it filters through and it can just step back to being part of the normal rota.

Remember , the dire Regional Railways cuts (imposed by the Government across all sectors) , took out a lot of services. We have a differing economy and society now.

In terms of signalling rosters , best added to the base rosters , etc - which might mean +1 member of (new) staff , - always good news for somewhere like Wales. I think the HoW meant some more hours at Sunday rates for the Pantyffynon signalman , though I doubt they complained as the turns were quite sociable.

 

[craigybagel]

The doubling of the H0W service (from 1 to 2 SO round trips- - trial basis by the SRA and then rolled into the Franchise was done eons ago , and those services are better performers than the weekday ones , I am told.

The HoW was cleverly worked out to maximise both "get home from Wales weekend traffic after a break - and of course the return") - as well as more local days out , like walking parties etc.

The revenue per journey was (and is) , accordingly very decent , as you get local and longer distance journeys.

It is astonishing that somewhere like Llandudno , a major resort , does not get Sunday services all year ...

It does help that the timings on the HOW on a Sunday are when people want to travel. Passenger numbers on that line are down Monday - Friday since the new timetable, despite most of the line going from 4 trains a day to 5, because the new timings don't match up with travel patterns. This is no fault of ATW, the limits of infrastructure and rolling stock availability meant that it was the only way to satisfy the demands from Cardiff Bay for more services. If a trial is done with Llandudno, I hope that the effort is made to timetable services at times that help and not hinder people, otherwise misleading conclusions may be drawn. Looking at the figures on the HOW, you might assume the line has no future with passenger numbers going down when in reality it's the timetable holding things back.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It does help that the timings on the HOW on a Sunday are when people want to travel. Passenger numbers on that line are down Monday - Friday since the new timetable, despite most of the line going from 4 trains a day to 5, because the new timings don't match up with travel patterns. This is no fault of ATW, the limits of infrastructure and rolling stock availability meant that it was the only way to satisfy the demands from Cardiff Bay for more services. If a trial is done with Llandudno, I hope that the effort is made to timetable services at times that help and not hinder people, otherwise misleading conclusions may be drawn. Looking at the figures on the HOW, you might assume the line has no future with passenger numbers going down when in reality it's the timetable holding things back.

Incredible how some lines are still suffering with Government imposed cuts from 28 years ago that should be easily reversible especially after the involvement of the dynamic private sector for so long

I can remember the Llandudno Winter Sunday issue being discussed when i was at the Rail Passengers Council in the early 2000's. The solution then was it would automatically be solved when the coast was re signaled...which has been put off and put off and delayed.....

 

[Gareth Marston]

Rhodri Clark should know better or was there an editorial decision to "Arriva bash"

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/toilets-many-arriva-trains-wales-14598405

The toilets on many Arriva trains in Wales are to be locked to save money
It would be illegal to have toilets that the disabled can't use - but if you don't have any toilets, it's fine apparently

By
Rhodri Clark

• 09:47, 1 MAY 2018

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The toilets on many of Arriva Trains Wales' oldest Pacer trains are set to be locked - as upgrading them to meet modern disability requirements has been deemed too expensive.

Officials are now understood to accept they cannot replace the trains, which operate on the Valleys and Cardiff line routes, in time to meet the the deadline for accessibility improvements next year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they really are going to do that I hope they are going to install portabogs at stations.

 

[Gareth Marston]

If they really are going to do that I hope they are going to install portabogs at stations.

here's a statement form the Welsh Government

A spokesperson for Welsh Government said:
“By 31st December 2019, all trains must include provisions for people of reduced mobility (PRM) in line with EU and UK Government standards. Transport for Wales and Welsh Government have included plans to achieve these standards in their procurement. These include handholds, passenger information displays, universal access toilets, priority seats and provision for wheelchairs. There are also enhanced accessibility standards for new stations or for stations where major work takes place.
“Procurement documents for the Wales and Borders Rail Service and South Wales Metro mandate PRM compliance and no exemptions are planned. By 2020, new trains will be being introduced across the Wales and Borders rail network. Ahead of this, work is already in place to modify existing trains so that they are PRM compliant and plans are in place to deal with Pacers. These plans do not involve locking of toilet doors.
“We understand speculation is likely to intensify as we approach the decision. As legally neither Transport for Wales nor the Welsh Government will be able to comment on the procurement process while it is still ongoing, we will not respond to any further speculation until the process has concluded.”

Forum members may like to speculate how the so far undeclared and unknown winner of the process is going to be able to order and have delivered PRM complaint rolling stock by 2020?

However it appears it will (in the eyes of Cardiff Bay) be the frnchise winners fault if it doesn't happen!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess they are going to apply for a derogation. Which in the situation would be the most sensible thing to do, particularly if they also did something like putting a wheelchair accessible polybog on at least some stations too.

 

[gareth950]

I do love this line:

"By 2020, new trains will be being introduced across the Wales and Borders rail network."

It's 1st May, not 1st April, right?

 

[gareth950]

here's a statement form the Welsh Government

Forum members may like to speculate how the so far undeclared and unknown winner of the process is going to be able to order and have delivered PRM complaint rolling stock by 2020?

However it appears it will (in the eyes of Cardiff Bay) be the frnchise winners fault if it doesn't happen!

I'm guessing that TfW have already got a pre-specified, pre-planned ready to go order for new trains with CAF.

Because, as we know, the bidders have complete freedom in this process to choose what trains they want...........

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I couldn't care less who they buy them from provided the fleet is substantially expanded with decent quality DMUs. (There's little case for bi-modes on W&B other than the Valleys given the lack of any proposed electrification).

Class 195s would fit perfectly and could start construction straight after the Northern ones are done.

 

[craigybagel]

I guess they are going to apply for a derogation. Which in the situation would be the most sensible thing to do, particularly if they also did something like putting a wheelchair accessible polybog on at least some stations too.

But as the government said in their statement today:

Procurement documents for the Wales and Borders Rail Service and South Wales Metro mandate PRM compliance and no exemptions are planned

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm guessing that TfW have already got a pre-specified, pre-planned ready to go order for new trains with CAF.

Because, as we know, the bidders have complete freedom in this process to choose what trains they want...........

Have they contracted Kwik Fit to assemble the units in time?

 

[gareth950]

But as the government said in their statement today:

So how are they going to achieve that? 24/7 operation at the CAF factory until 31/12/2019?

 

[Parallel]

Interesting. I wonder if that means they will refurbish the pacers and 153s by 2020 or will have new trains running by 2020.

Both equally as unlikely.

 

[Gareth Marston]

TBH I couldn't care less who they buy them from provided the fleet is substantially expanded with decent quality DMUs. (There's little case for bi-modes on W&B other than the Valleys given the lack of any proposed electrification).

Class 195s would fit perfectly and could start construction straight after the Northern ones are done.

No one is that upset about CAF just the lack of transparency from Welsh Government.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interesting. I wonder if that means they will refurbish the pacers and 153s by 2020 or will have new trains running by 2020.

Both equally as unlikely.

Neither will of course happen but of course it won't be the Welsh Governments fault in ant size shape or form

 

[craigybagel]

So how are they going to achieve that? 24/7 operation at the CAF factory until 31/12/2019?

No idea, I'm as baffled as anyone else. But for me, it's the most interesting point from the press release today and one I think that shouldn't be ignored.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

WG, like Merseytravel, is capable of ordering a fleet of trains without a TOC in place if they get Treasury approval.
DfT did it for IEP and the Thameslink 700s, and then mandated their use by the TOCs.
It might be the case that CAF (or whoever) already has trains under construction for WG (abroad).
Unbelievable, but possible.
But I still don't see how they transform the entire current fleet in 20 months without a derogation.
Maybe Vivarail is involved.

 

[gareth950]

WG, like Merseyrail, is capable of ordering a fleet of trains without a TOC in place if they get Treasury approval.
DfT did it for IEP and the Thameslink 700s, and then mandated their use by the TOCs.
It might be the case that CAF (or whoever) already has trains under construction for WG (abroad).
Unbelievable, but possible.
But I still don't see how they transform the entire current fleet in 20 months without a derogation.
Maybe Vivarail is involved.

But it begs the Q yet again, if orders for new trains have been placed by Welsh Govt / TfW, why keep it secret?
Are these trains being built under armed guard somewhere?
Welsh Govt needs to release you cannot award a rail franchise using the same procurement process that you do for an NHS software contract, yet that is what it has done.

 

[PHILIPE]

The winning bidder together with all the previously secret info is supposed to be due to be announced in May and as we are now in May will probably be announced on the 31st to keep us in suspense

 

[Gareth Marston]

Here's a civil service mentality solution for you.

Run Pacers as long as possible then close all the lines north of Radyr for conversion to Light Rail whilst the CAF plant in Newport (procured within the rules of course!) builds the Light Rail stock.

Hopefully a world class bus operator will be on hand to transport folk to work in Cardiff down the non congested A470

Its all OK as the closure was always part of the process to transform Core Valley Lines into the worlds greatest urban transit system and everything will be PRM Compliant.

 

[gareth950]

Here's a civil service mentality solution for you.

Run Pacers as long as possible then close all the lines north of Radyr for conversion to Light Rail whilst the CAF plant in Newport (procured within the rules of course!) builds the Light Rail stock.

Hopefully a world class bus operator will be on hand to transport folk to work in Cardiff down the non congested A470

Its all OK as the closure was always part of the process to transform Core Valley Lines into the worlds greatest urban transit system and everything will be PRM Compliant.

However, unfortunately for the politicians having to defend those decisions, the chaos of bussing everyone up and down the A470 (or most likely people driving their own cars, exacerbating the congestion still further) will be happening in the run up to and during the Assembly elections of May 2021. A perfect storm.