Class 365s to Scotrail

[InOban]

For those wondering about delivery of the 365s by rail, I recommend this thread… https://twitter.com/RAIL/status/990134065566310400

I can understand that some lines are limited by axle loading. I can understand that some bogies with longer wheelbases may not be compatible with lines with tight curves like mine. I cannot understand why after many decades of a BR standard loading guage that any passenger vehicle should have been built which does not fit every line and platform.

 

[NSEFAN]

I can understand that some lines are limited by axle loading. I can understand that some bogies with longer wheelbases may not be compatible with lines with tight curves like mine. I cannot understand why after many decades of a BR standard loading guage that any passenger vehicle should have been built which does not fit every line and platform.

It's not even a case of "it won't fit", more "the paperwork doesn't say that it will fit, so assume that it won't to be on the safe side". Network rail is quite slow to gauge clear things, such that a bespoke move is quicker to organise a move by road instead.

 

[D365]

Network rail is quite slow to gauge clear things, such that a bespoke move is quicker to organise a move by road instead.

I’ve seen Class 319s cleared before in a matter of hours. If the need is there it can be done.

However obviously that’s a case where the paperwork is simply ready to go.

 

[mcmad]

The fact they are raising the 365s and taking a couple of inch of the step boards does suggest it wouldnt fit somewhere

 

[InOban]

Precisely. But with decades of BR standard loading gauge, that should never be the case.

Back in the day, each region built stock to suit its own gauge. The original Glasgow Blue Trains were slightly wider than standard, as indeed was I think, Western Region suburban stock. But that was stopped many moons ago.

 

[43096]

Network rail is quite slow to gauge clear things, such that a bespoke move is quicker to organise a move by road instead.

They can do it quickly if they need to. The use of EMT HSTs by VTEC after the snow saw the route from Cricklewood to Hornsey cleared for HSTs within 48 hours, so it can be done.

 

[Domh245]

Precisely. But with decades of BR standard loading gauge, that should never be the case.

Back in the day, each region built stock to suit its own gauge. The original Glasgow Blue Trains were slightly wider than standard, as indeed was I think, Western Region suburban stock. But that was stopped many moons ago.

I think that the Mk1 and Mk3 were about the only such "BR standard loading gauges". After sectorisation things started diverging again, particularly from Network South East - non standard electrical blocks in their DMU couplers to prevent Regional Railways from nicking them, making the 16xs as wide as they could to take advantage of the generous loading gauges on the GWML and Chiltern lines, etc. Why shouldn't they have been maximising things for their own benefit though? It'd have been a hard task to convince anyone to build them to a seemingly more restrictive gauge so that in 20+ years time they could be sent off to some other region - at the time why shouldn't have they expected to keep hold of the 365s until they fell apart (much like most other NSE stock)

 

[NSEFAN]

They can do it quickly if they need to. The use of EMT HSTs by VTEC after the snow saw the route from Cricklewood to Hornsey cleared for HSTs within 48 hours, so it can be done.

Fair enough, although it depends on the difficulty and the urgency. The situation you describe was perhaps both less admin work and more pressing than 365s to Scotrail.

 

[The_Engineer]

They can do it quickly if they need to. The use of EMT HSTs by VTEC after the snow saw the route from Cricklewood to Hornsey cleared for HSTs within 48 hours, so it can be done.

Yes, route clearance can be CHECKED quickly. What cannot be done quickly (nor cheaply) is to modify obstructions found on that route, or the trains themselves. I think ScotRail did the right thing in arranging prompt road transport, as the "by rail" alternative had too many unknowns and potential risks/problems (and delay). If ScotRail had delayed getting the Class 365 to Scotland, then that would have been more of PR disaster.

I don't think ScotRail E&G passengers will give two-hoots how their temporary trains got to Scotland, they just want them in service quickly.......

 

[jopsuk]

aren't 365s notorious for gauging issues? I seem to recall that even to go down the West anglia they need suspicions setting changed and possibly steps removed?

 

[Class 170101]

Not cleared South of Broxbourne as I recall.

BE aren't exactly that great at gauge clearance unless threatened by politicians just look what happened with the steam charter last year or the year before that.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, route clearance can be CHECKED quickly. What cannot be done quickly (nor cheaply) is to modify obstructions found on that route, or the trains themselves. I think ScotRail did the right thing in arranging prompt road transport, as the "by rail" alternative had too many unknowns and potential risks/problems (and delay).

And for all we know they may have checked them quickly and the check threw up some problems. There's also the issue of electromagnetic interference discussed further back, although that wouldn't have prevented them being diesel-hauled.

 

[Highlandspring]

With the current unit livery a variation of the SR logo could work on a similar basis to this.

At the moment the brand guidelines afford for the Night blue / Telegrey 4 version or a Black&White version; but, neither necessarily lends themselves to the current livery (based on the example of 365 523) as the blue may jar against the shade of blue that FCC/GN used on the doors, and, Telegrey 4 is too similar to the grey on the livery. An all grey version would perhaps fit the bill?

Alex Hynes shared a diagram of the livery/branding application that has been developed for the 365s this afternoon on the internal staff Yammer site. They’ll look smart enough.

 

[D365]

Any idea on the total number of Class 365s that will be going their way?

 

[Domh245]

Any idea on the total number of Class 365s that will be going their way?

I've seen 12 mentioned a few times

 

[hexagon789]

Any idea on the total number of Class 365s that will be going their way?

I've seen 10 units mentioned a few times in this thread and the 385 introduction one

 

[gingertom]

I've seen 10 units mentioned a few times in this thread and the 385 introduction one

any idea how many are available?

 

[Hadders]

Any idea on the total number of Class 365s that will be going their way?

Hopefully there'll be a few spare to go back to their old stomping ground when the new GN/TL has its 'Princess' style meltdown and has to be changed, resulting in more rolling stock being required.

 

[hexagon789]

any idea how many are available?

10 I believe, I don't think any more than that are readily available

 

[D365]

Wikipedia states eight units off-lease currently, excluding 523. 21 units will be available in total, not sure when the remaining 12 will be released.

 

[hexagon789]

Wikipedia states eight units off-lease currently, excluding 523. 21 units will be available in total, not sure when the remaining 12 will be released.

I'd happily accept 21 365s, that would be a very welcome capacity boost. Presumably though only 10 are available just now, with the other 11 later on.

 

[whoosh]

They can do it quickly if they need to. The use of EMT HSTs by VTEC after the snow saw the route from Cricklewood to Hornsey cleared for HSTs within 48 hours, so it can be done.

But they had already been cleared for that route years ago. Back in BR days Midland Main Line HSTs used to go to Bounds Green for fuel and maintenance, via the same route.

 

[gingertom]

I'd happily accept 21 365s, that would be a very welcome capacity boost. Presumably though only 10 are available just now, with the other 11 later on.

it would be a welcome boost. The Falkirk Grahamston line electrification goes live next week, giving the opportunity to run electric service to/from Cumbernauld. Would like to think that would allow a badly-needed diesel unit or 2 to be cascaded.

 

[hexagon789]

it would be a welcome boost. The Falkirk Grahamston line electrification goes live next week, giving the opportunity to run electric service to/from Cumbernauld. Would like to think that would allow a badly-needed diesel unit or 2 to be cascaded.

Could use a few more 156s for strengthening some East Kilbrides. I think the 365s could be used for the Alloa/Dunblane and/or E-G via Falkirk Grahamston, or even (as someone suggested) Edinburgh-North Berwick/Dunbar. They would be perfect for any of those.

 

[Stopper]

Very much doubt the Cumbernauld’s will be going electric any time soon. I’d imagine they’ll be replacing as many diesels as they can on the E-G route.

 

[mde]

Alex Hynes shared a diagram of the livery/branding application that has been developed for the 365s this afternoon on the internal staff Yammer site. They’ll look smart enough.

Excellent. I'm sure Al Dalton will get a copy soon enough for the rest of us to see

 

[diamond chap]

Out of interest do they have WiFi and if not will it be installed prior to them starting on the E-G (I saw no mention of it in the internal Scotrail memo posted earlier) ? Given many of the weekday daytime E-G services resemble mobile offices, no WiFi may well cause a few grumbles (although a lot fewer grumbles than would be caused if numerous 170s go without being replaced!)

 

[jon0844]

Thank you very much

I know I sound like a broken record now, but I just want a little chane from Saltire, even if you had Saltire for the suburban/regional services, reverse Saltire for the 365s/385s and 7Cities on the HSTs it would make each service 'category' more distinct.

I'm rather hoping the 365s are retained when the 385s finally enter service, they are very nice units!

They are very nice units, but starting to look a little tired. Although given the controversial 'prepare people for the 700s' refresh, things are starting to wear. There are many problems with internal gangway doors (was on one recently that had one door missing entirely!), the ball vents for ventilation are mostly broken or inoperative, and they're looking a bit tatty.

Externally they look good though, when cleaned.

I do hope that wherever they finally end up, they're giving a better interior look as there's no reason they can't be made to look as good as new.

On the plus side, they're generally very reliable. A few external problems, showing up in the recent hot weather, but nothing exceptional.

 

[jon0844]

Out of interest do they have WiFi and if not will it be installed prior to them starting on the E-G (I saw no mention of it in the internal Scotrail memo posted earlier) ? Given many of the weekday daytime E-G services resemble mobile offices, no WiFi may well cause a few grumbles (although a lot fewer grumbles than would be caused if numerous 170s go without being replaced!)

The GTR ones are getting Wi-Fi fitted between now and the summer (no specific date). I assume the ones off lease will need it fitted separately unless the ROSCO is funding it, in which case they might all be getting it.

There are still some 365s with the old disabled toilets and no call-for-aid buttons in the wheelchair area (which has moved) I believe, so work may be continuing as this work needs to be done before 2020.

Likewise some units have newer buttons in first class to release the doors (some of them, the ex-SET ones perhaps (or vice versa) had no buttons at all and rely on the door sensor that can fail and effectively trap people inside).

 

[43096]

But they had already been cleared for that route years ago. Back in BR days Midland Main Line HSTs used to go to Bounds Green for fuel and maintenance, via the same route.

I think you’ve missed the point, which is that NR can do things quickly if they put their mind to it. The specifics of what I posted was an example of where they have.