New Transdev Cityzap services registered (and now cancelled)

[atraindriver]

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[AJW12]

As a matter of interest can people be more specific about these free tickets outside Rail Stations and vouchers in the Metro - particularly where Manchester is concerned? I regularly catch the train into Piccadilly - albeit after the height of the morning peak, but I have never seen anyone giving away anything other than Lucozade, other unhealthy sugary confections or cheap Gym membership, either inside the Station or on the concourse outside. Further, I usually pick up a Metro and have never seen any adverts for anything bus based let alone cheap vouchers. Come to think of it, I've never seen cheap vouchers for anything.

Notwithstanding, I think overall publicity is very poor as apart from any promotion at rail stations, the "Twitterati" and bus enthusiasts on forums like this, I doubt anyone has ever heard of Cityzap in Gtr. M'cr - other than just periodically seeing these red/grey buses running up and down Oldham Road & Broadway.

Hiya - yeah I've binned my copy of Metro with the voucher in but here's a Tweet about it, and the picture is the advert they had which covered a whole page towards the end of the paper this week: https://twitter.com/cityzapbus/status/984442718461022208.

And as for the giveaways outside train stations - there have been a few and they usually send out a tweet when they're around. Normally they're outside train stations (Leeds/Manchester) giving out vouchers for one free journey, or £1 (something like that). I'm not sure how close to the stations they go though (or how close they're allowed to go). They tend to be there very early in the morning but then leave quite early too - I wonder if they'd be better trying in the evenings since the platforms to Manchester in the evening are completely rammed. Mind you, I'm not sure that'd be ideal for them since the last bus disappears at 6/6:30.

 

[atraindriver]

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[northwichcat]

3. Yes. - certainly in low car ownership areas - unless all four provisos in 2. are achieved. In reality, NONE will be achieved.

I wouldn't want to live in an area without trains if I didn't own a car. Buses are OK for short distances but having to use a combination of bus+train to get somewhere outside the local area would be a pain, especially if a delayed train means you miss the last bus home. If a delayed train means you miss a connecting train then the train operator is required to take responsibility for getting you home, if the last leg is on a bus or tram and you miss the last one then you have to pay for a taxi home at your own expense or walk, whatever the distance is.

 

[atraindriver]

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[northwichcat]

Should a commercial operation be attempting to undermine a subsidised service when it has absolutely no intention of replacing that service and is in fact merely cherry-picking? Commercial/subsidised is a red herring, though.

I made my comment because I seem to remember a certain TrentBarton senior manager complaining in another forum some years ago about a competing operator using tactics which he appeared to believe were entirely acceptable when used by his own company.

Well in the Macclesfield area High Peak Buses (a Centrebus/Wellglade company) became scared of losing work to G.H.A. Coaches so when a contract High Peak had to run the 27 Macclesfield to Knutsford service came to an end they decided to run a reduced service commercially to prevent it going back out to tender. Then High Peak decided it wasn't commercially viable and cancelled the registration and G.H.A. then registered the service commercially just after the local council had put it back out to tender! The latter improved the service slightly but then they went in to administration and the local council hadn't allowed for funding the service in its budget. End result was a reduced service again, not because demand had fallen but because of the tactics of two bus operators. In the end there were no winners, while the passengers were the biggest losers.

 

[atraindriver]

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[radamfi]

It is usual at this point for someone to start eulogising about Switzerland with its highly integrated timetables and ticketing, but nobody ever seems to comment on the large number of cars using Swiss roads...

I don't think anyone has claimed that car usage is minimal in Switzerland. However, they have a particularly high modal share for public transport, especially in cities, and the country has the highest per capita rail usage in the world.

 

[atraindriver]

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[radamfi]

OK, I'm intensely cynical, but I only ever hear the claim that there is such a high modal share from people with a vested interest in proclaiming it as such, and when I visit what I notice is that a lot of urban public transport outside of Zürich and Genève doesn't seem all that well used. Frequencies are not that high, but fares are even with an Abo, and I tend to think that there's a willingness amongst public transport proponents to believe (and push the idea) that Swiss public transport is some form of transport utopia that in reality it simply isn't.

[Interestingly, over the years I've found that arguing against the received wisdom that Swiss PT is utterly excellent generally garners you the same reaction that you get if you argue with the British railway industry's determined belief that Japanese railways are in every respect better than the British railways and therefore we should slavishly follow them (just as long as it doesn't cost real money).]

Where is my vested interest? What have I got to gain from my posts? Modal share statistics are readily available, for example from the book "Transport for Suburbia: Beyond the Automobile Age" by Paul Mees, although that's getting a bit old now.

You don't need statistics to see how attractive the Swiss offering is. Fares are not cheap showing that people are prepared to put their hand in their pocket for something worth using. Individual route frequencies may not be high either, but the end to end journey time is what counts. There are no big cities in Switzerland and therefore car travel is possible for almost all trips. It is a very rich country and almost anyone who wants a car can afford one. Therefore it is even more remarkable how many people use public transport. Yes, not everyone uses it and outside the major cities, the vast majority of trips are by car.

If you are looking for vested interests, then you might find them more readily closer to home. There must be some reason why best practice from abroad is clearly ignored.

 

[Dentonian]

It's not as straight forward as that. Take Altrincham to Manchester - there's a 263 bus (commercial), Metrolink and Northern. However, the 3 aren't really comparable e.g. under normal circumstances no-one would use the slow 263 bus and if you're taking a bike with you then Northern is the only option. It also needs to be remembered the train doesn't start at Altrincham - from Hale, Knutsford, Lostock Gralam, Northwich, Delamere etc. there is no bus or Metrolink service to Manchester and the fare from Delamere can't be so expensive that it puts everyone off travelling and if you're travelling a shorter distance on the train then it makes sense that you pay a lower fare.

I was thinking more of shorter journeys where running times between the two (or even three) modes is comparable, especially when walking time is included. eg. Moston or Reddish North to Manchester.

 

[Dentonian]

Hiya - yeah I've binned my copy of Metro with the voucher in but here's a Tweet about it, and the picture is the advert they had which covered a whole page towards the end of the paper this week: https://twitter.com/cityzapbus/status/984442718461022208.

And as for the giveaways outside train stations - there have been a few and they usually send out a tweet when they're around. Normally they're outside train stations (Leeds/Manchester) giving out vouchers for one free journey, or £1 (something like that). I'm not sure how close to the stations they go though (or how close they're allowed to go). They tend to be there very early in the morning but then leave quite early too - I wonder if they'd be better trying in the evenings since the platforms to Manchester in the evening are completely rammed. Mind you, I'm not sure that'd be ideal for them since the last bus disappears at 6/6:30.

You've at least reinforced my other point. Amongst the general population, only the Twitteratti even know Cityzap exists.

 

[atraindriver]

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[Dentonian]

I wouldn't want to live in an area without trains if I didn't own a car. Buses are OK for short distances but having to use a combination of bus+train to get somewhere outside the local area would be a pain, especially if a delayed train means you miss the last bus home. If a delayed train means you miss a connecting train then the train operator is required to take responsibility for getting you home, if the last leg is on a bus or tram and you miss the last one then you have to pay for a taxi home at your own expense or walk, whatever the distance is.

I'm assuming (probably wrongly) that the original question is based on large urban areas. I am completely the opposite; as I don't drive, I couldn't live in an area without buses. The average walking distance from home to nearest Rail Station in the UK is 2.7km - nearly 7 times the distance as the nearest bus stop. I suspect that in urban areas outside the South East, the gap is higher still. Obviously, people have different lifestyles in terms of what time of day or night they travel, but even before I became ill, I never travelled anywhere that would not have me returning home from a long distance trip without at least two scheduled departures on the last bus leg - and typically would only travel for an evening out to somewhere with a direct bus home.

 

[radamfi]

Did I claim that you have a vested interest?

Perhaps I am reading something into [the tone of] your reply that you didn't intend, but you appear to be offended that my opinions of Swiss PT differ from yours, and feel it necessary to prove me absolutely wrong and by doing so to make my opinions appear unworthy of any serious consideration, which is itself an example of the point I was making.
Disagreeing with the standard opinion that Swiss PT is wonderful certainly garners very forceful responses, and I find myself wondering why there's such a refusal to accept that opinions on the matter can differ.

You said, "I only ever hear the claim that there is such a high modal share from people with a vested interest in proclaiming it as such".

I have claimed a high modal share. Therefore, I have a vested interest.

I am not allowed to disagree with your opinion, but you are allowed to disagree with mine.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Like a rail replacement bus service, this thread is on a diversion.......

 

[Bayum]

I wouldn't even consider the train in that case then! Plenty of choice of seating on the bus, not so on the train.

So I parked in Rochdale and used the 'Park and Tram', which taking an hour was a bad decision on my part... I am glad I didn't attempt to get a CityZap service, as the M62 eastbound was gridlocked for a good 40 minutes of my journey in the Manchester direction.

 

[radamfi]

So I parked in Rochdale and used the 'Park and Tram', which taking an hour was a bad decision on my part...

The tram goes a long way around. There are frequent Northern train services from Rochdale, taking 15-20 minutes.

 

[Bayum]

The tram goes a long way around. There are frequent Northern train services from Rochdale, taking 15-20 minutes.

But that would also have cost more money.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm assuming (probably wrongly) that the original question is based on large urban areas. I am completely the opposite; as I don't drive, I couldn't live in an area without buses. The average walking distance from home to nearest Rail Station in the UK is 2.7km - nearly 7 times the distance as the nearest bus stop. I suspect that in urban areas outside the South East, the gap is higher still. Obviously, people have different lifestyles in terms of what time of day or night they travel, but even before I became ill, I never travelled anywhere that would not have me returning home from a long distance trip without at least two scheduled departures on the last bus leg - and typically would only travel for an evening out to somewhere with a direct bus home.

I'm not saying an area without buses is a good thing, I'm saying being in an area with only buses would be a bad thing. If you're basing your reasoning on urban areas why are you using the UK average opposed to the average in urban areas? In urban areas you can have three stations within 2.7km of each other.

 

[theblackwatch]

Just a reminder that this thread is about Transdev's CityZap service and that off-topic posts may be deleted if they continue to be posted. Please start another thread if you wish to discuss something else.

 

[theblackwatch]

I see that Transdev are offering discounted £1 single fares on Cityzap (and Coastliner) for people attending York Pride this Saturday (see http://yorkbus.co.uk/news.jsp?newsID=2352 ). As the event is at the Knavesmire and the buses set down/pick up near there, I suspect quite a few will find it more convenient than the train.

 

[185143]

According to what appears to be a letter to drivers, the Manchester CityZap is being axed from July.

https://twitter.com/Transdev_Fans/status/1004462573759225858?s=19

 

[Dentonian]

According to what appears to be a letter to drivers, the Manchester CityZap is being axed from July.

https://twitter.com/Transdev_Fans/status/1004462573759225858?s=19

Whilst the "spirit" of the law isn't aimed at such services, the letter of the law now states 70 days notice for withdrawal, so hopefully it will be late July. Might just get chance to try it before NatEx increase fares - sorry, I mean before the service finishes.

 

[185143]

Whilst the "spirit" of the law isn't aimed at such services, the letter of the law now states 70 days notice for withdrawal, so hopefully it will be late July. Might just get chance to try it before NatEx increase fares - sorry, I mean before the service finishes.

Do it. It's good fun if you get a decent trip on the M62!

 

[Andyh82]

Whilst the "spirit" of the law isn't aimed at such services, the letter of the law now states 70 days notice for withdrawal, so hopefully it will be late July. Might just get chance to try it before NatEx increase fares - sorry, I mean before the service finishes.

I expect it'll be 22nd July which is a West Yorkshire change date

I'm surprised they didn't attempt to the same as the Red Express and extend the journey time slightly by serving more stops and extending the market.

I'm also surprised they didn't move it to Rosso at Rochdale, to reduce dead running

 

[leedslad82]

They launching express services in July on coastliner but the buses will be from York depot rather than Malton so wonder if this will be the new home for the ex cityzap buses

 

[skyhigh]

I expect it'll be 22nd July which is a West Yorkshire change date

I'm surprised they didn't attempt to the same as the Red Express and extend the journey time slightly by serving more stops and extending the market.

I'm also surprised they didn't move it to Rosso at Rochdale, to reduce dead running

Some official confirmation: https://twitter.com/cityzapbus/status/1004667647668183040

Hey, ZAPPERS. We tried, but it's time to move on. Cityzap LDS-MCR is coming to an end after Sun 22 July. Don't worry - we'll still be ZAPPING fast every 30 mins between Leeds and York! Thanks for your support over the past 6 months.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I expect it'll be 22nd July which is a West Yorkshire change date

I'm surprised they didn't attempt to the same as the Red Express and extend the journey time slightly by serving more stops and extending the market.

I'm also surprised they didn't move it to Rosso at Rochdale, to reduce dead running

I would think that the figures are of such levels that they didn't believe additional stops would be enough, especially if it leads to increased resources being required.

As regards Rochdale.... probably a couple of things. Firstly, they've had a while to do this and whilst there will be a saving, moving it and having a bit less dead mileage is probably neither here nor there. Also, with the move out of Haslingden and the ongoing challenges of the Rosso fleet they inherited, it was probably one less thing to worry about.

 

[Flying Claret]

Some official confirmation: https://twitter.com/cityzapbus/status/1004667647668183040

Im not surprised. I commute daily between accrington and 'Uddersfield. The loadings on these from what I've seen have been very low.