Gatwick Express with Oyster 60+ card ?

[Richard090]

I have an Oyster 60+ photo card and will be travelling from Gatwick airport to London. If I have understood correctly, at Gatwick I should be able to buy a Gatwick to Zone 6 (or is that E Croydon ?) ticket which I can use on Southern Rail and Thameslink, and wont have to hop on / off anywhere.

First question, can I buy that from a machine, or is it a ticket-office only sale ? Also, what exactly am I asking for and what should it cost (weekday late afternoon) ?

Second question: Can I do the same thing for the Gatwick Express ?

 

[puffing billy]

Yes, you can use your 60+ Oyster card in conjunction with a Gatwick to Z6B single ticket on Southern or Thameslink. You don't have to hop on/off anywhere and the train doesn't have to stop at the Z6B station which I believe is Coulsdon South on that route. The only restriction is the time on a week-day but in the afternoon you'll be OK.

In my experience only some ticket machines offer "Z6B" as a destination but others don't (at least I have never worked out how to select it). I'm not sure about the ticket machines at Gatwick. If the queue for the ticket office to too long then a single to Coulsdon South from a machine should be the same, or about the same, as the zone boundary price.

As for the Gatwick Express; other threads on this forum debate the precise status of that service and the tickets that are valid but I wouldn't chance it. See this statement on the Gatwick Express fares web-page "Please note that Freedom Passes are not valid for travel with Gatwick Express".

But I'm just another train-user also with a 60+ Oyster card so please wait for one of the knowledgeable fare experts to on this forum to provide an "official" response.

 

[SAPhil]

If you are prepared to use Thameslink only then it is cheaper to buy a ticket from Croydon stations than boundary zone 6.

 

[Richard090]

If you are prepared to use Thameslink only then it is cheaper to buy a ticket from Croydon stations than boundary zone 6.

Thanks, but I will have luggage and certainly do not want to be getting on and off the train.

 

[yorkie]

My understanding is that a Freedom Pass acts as an Off Peak Travelcard Season, and therefore an extension from Boundary Zone 6 or the relevant boundary station should be valid on non-stop trains.

Whether or not GTR's on board supervisors will be happy to accept such a combination or not, I do not know.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
As for the Gatwick Express; other threads on this forum debate the precise status of that service and the tickets that are valid but I wouldn't chance it. See this statement on the Gatwick Express fares web-page "Please note that Freedom Passes are not valid for travel with Gatwick Express".
...

Information about the Freedom Pass on the London Councils website also explicitly excludes its use on the Gatwick Express (for journeys between Victoria and Gatwick):

The Freedom Pass is not valid for travel on train services operated by:
...
* Gatwick Express (between London Victoria and Gatwick)
...

If you are travelling by National Rail you need to make sure you are travelling within the Freedom Pass boundaries or you may receive a penalty fare. If you wish to travel beyond the Freedom Pass area you must buy a separate extension ticket before you travel. Extension tickets used in conjunction with a Freedom Pass are NOT valid on services operated by any of the Train Companies listed above. Always show your Freedom Pass with your photograph at the ticket office when buying extension tickets. Holders of Senior and Disabled Persons Railcards may be able to obtain a discount on the price of extension tickets.

(My bolding.)

Yes, there remains the argument that Gatwick Express is not a Train Company but a brand, but nonetheless if I was the OP I wouldn't bother and just travel on Southern or Thameslink services.

 

[yorkie]

It isn't valid to Gatwick because it's only valid within the relevant area which doesn't include Gatwick.

I see no reason why GTR can refuse to accept a combination of tickets on any trains they operate; the train does not need to call at any intermediate station.

 

[bb21]

Trouble with Freedom Pass is that it is not GTR deciding what they want to accept, it is GLA deciding what terms they want to impose on one of its concessionary products, and entering into agreements with operators accordingly, or vice versa. Freedom Passes do not need to be subject to TSA so they can bar travel on, say, the 1050 specifically if they so wished even if all other departures run by the same company for the same journey throughout the day are available to pass-holders.

If terms of the pass specifically excluded Gatwick Express services then I would strongly advise against using it on these services, unless you have very deep pockets. It is a very different kettle of fish to purchasing a Thameslink Only fare and attempting to argue its validity using the TSA and Conditions of Travel.

 

[island]

If you are prepared to use Thameslink only then it is cheaper to buy a ticket from Croydon stations than boundary zone 6.

Thanks, but I will have luggage and certainly do not want to be getting on and off the train.

You would not need to get on and off any trains. Simply buy a Croydon Stations to Gatwick Airport (or v/v) ticket before joining a Thameslink train.

Trouble with Freedom Pass is that it is not GTR deciding what they want to accept, it is GLA deciding what terms they want to impose on one of its concessionary products, and entering into agreements with operators accordingly, or vice versa. Freedom Passes do not need to be subject to TSA so they can bar travel on, say, the 1050 specifically if they so wished even if all other departures run by the same company for the same journey throughout the day are available to pass-holders.

If terms of the pass specifically excluded Gatwick Express services then I would strongly advise against using it on these services, unless you have very deep pockets. It is a very different kettle of fish to purchasing a Thameslink Only fare and attempting to argue its validity using the TSA and Conditions of Travel.

I agree with this. The conditions of the Freedom Pass explicitly exclude Gatwick Express; if they had meant that that one could use it in conjunction with an extension ticket, they would have said so.

 

[James H]

Trouble with Freedom Pass is that it is not GTR deciding what they want to accept, it is GLA deciding what terms they want to impose on one of its concessionary products

The Freedom Pass is not a GLA/TfL product. The scheme is run by London Councils (the 32 boroughs working together).

The 60+ Oyster card is however part of the Mayoral/TfL remit.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It isn't valid to Gatwick because it's only valid within the relevant area which doesn't include Gatwick.

I see no reason why GTR can refuse to accept a combination of tickets on any trains they operate; the train does not need to call at any intermediate station.

I disagree - as bb21 states above, the Freedom Pass isn't subject to the TSA, rather it is a concessionary pass subject to an agreement between London Councils (acting on behalf of all the London Boroughs) and the relevant TOCs. The agreement excludes Gatwick Express services, and the information provided to pass holders makes this clear. (The 60+ Oyster card is the result of a similar agreement between TfL and the relevant TOCs.)

Whilst functionally the Freedom Pass is similar to an Off-peak Day Travelcard on National Rail services, it is a distinct product, with distinct rules.

 

[yorkie]

The agreement will include payment for the train company operating these trains to convey passengers as far as the Zone 6 boundary.

The website refers to GX as an "operator" and also refers to Wrexham & Shropshire and makes a similar claim about not being valid on Stansted Express; clearly the intention is to prevent people attempting to use the passes to an airport, rather than to prevent someone using half the trains between Tottenham Hale and London Liverpool Street.

The wording is very poor but providing an extension is purchased I see no basis for the company to charge for a new ticket just because the passenger took one of their non-stop trains. I believe it would be an abuse of dominance if GTR were to actually charge anyone who was travelling with such a combination of tickets on a non-stop train.

 

[Clip]

The agreement will include payment for the train company operating these trains to convey passengers as far as the Zone 6 boundary.

The website refers to GX as an "operator" and also refers to Wrexham & Shropshire and makes a similar claim about not being valid on Stansted Express; clearly the intention is to prevent people attempting to use the passes to an airport, rather than to prevent someone using half the trains between Tottenham Hale and London Liverpool Street.

The wording is very poor but providing an extension is purchased I see no basis for the company to charge for a new ticket just because the passenger took one of their non-stop trains. I believe it would be an abuse of dominance if GTR were to actually charge anyone who was travelling with such a combination of tickets on a non-stop train.

Surely you are not saying that restrictions on what is basically a PTE product can be ignored - as that is what your post is basically saying - because if so then are you saying time restrictions should be ignored also because a train will be somewhere else after the time restriction ends???

 

[plcd1]

Trouble with Freedom Pass is that it is not GTR deciding what they want to accept, it is GLA deciding what terms they want to impose on one of its concessionary products, and entering into agreements with operators accordingly, or vice versa. Freedom Passes do not need to be subject to TSA so they can bar travel on, say, the 1050 specifically if they so wished even if all other departures run by the same company for the same journey throughout the day are available to pass-holders.

If terms of the pass specifically excluded Gatwick Express services then I would strongly advise against using it on these services, unless you have very deep pockets. It is a very different kettle of fish to purchasing a Thameslink Only fare and attempting to argue its validity using the TSA and Conditions of Travel.

Apologies for a bit of pedantry but the Greater London Authority (GLA) has nothing to with the Freedom Pass. London Councils, the "umbrella" body for the London Borough councils, is responsible for the administration, issuing and payments for the Freedom Pass product. The London Councils website has the relevant meeting papers etc governing the Freedom Pass and the calculations re payments from the boroughs for each mode.

As others have said the 60+ Pass is a Mayoral initiative paid from TfL's budget and has slightly different validities to the Freedom Pass. I can't actually see anything on TfL's website page about the 60+ Pass that "bans" use on Gatwick Express BUT with the proviso that an extension ticket would be required to reach Gatwick. Clearly no London concessionary product stretches as far as Gatwick Airport. I wonder if TfL have somehow missed a trick in not reflecting the same level of detail as London Councils do in terms of listing "Banned" train companies?

 

[Joe Paxton]

The agreement will include payment for the train company operating these trains to convey passengers as far as the Zone 6 boundary.

With the greatest respect, unless you have seen the agreement then you cannot say that for sure. Given the explicit exclusion of Gatwick Express services on the website, then I'd posit that they are specifically excluded from the agreement - i.e. the payment to GTR is for all non-GatEx services to the zone 6 boundary. It's not hard to imagine the current agreement is just a continuation of the pre-2008 situation when GatEx was a distinct operator. (I've some notion in the back of my mind that pre-privatisation the Freedom Pass may not have been valid on BR GatEx services either, but I can't say for sure - the answer will be buried in an archive somewhere!)

The website refers to GX as an "operator" and also refers to Wrexham & Shropshire and makes a similar claim about not being valid on Stansted Express; clearly the intention is to prevent people attempting to use the passes to an airport, rather than to prevent someone using half the trains between Tottenham Hale and London Liverpool Street.

Perhaps I'm being a bit dense but I can't see the references on the London Councils website to W&S and to the Stansted Express?

The wording is very poor but providing an extension is purchased I see no basis for the company to charge for a new ticket just because the passenger took one of their non-stop trains. I believe it would be an abuse of dominance if GTR were to actually charge anyone who was travelling with such a combination of tickets on a non-stop train.

The wording and information on the website could be clearer (an as an aside the expanding menu bar on the left is really irritating!), but if the agreement excludes GTR GatEx services then, well, it excludes GTR GatEx services - i.e. no abuse of dominance by GTR, just them abiding by the Freedom Pass agreement.

I have had a quick search around on the London Councils website to see if I could find the text of the agreement or other related documents, alas to no avail. (However plenty of mentions of the negotiations for each annual settlement between London Councils and ATOC/RDG.)

 

[yorkie]

..., but if the agreement excludes GTR GatEx services then, well, it excludes GTR GatEx services - i.e. no abuse of dominance by GTR...

I don't think you understand what abuse of dominance means.

And GTR are party to the agreement.

I don't see how a passenger who travels on a GTR train that doesn't call at East Croydon can be deemed to have an invalid combination of tickets when they hold a ticket that is valid to the boundary of Zone 6, plus an extension fare from the boundary to their destination, and be charged for a new ticket

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/consumers/abuse_en.html

...A dominant position is not in itself anti-competitive, but if the company exploits this position to eliminate competition, it is considered to have abused it.

Examples include:

• charging unreasonably high prices
• depriving smaller competitors of customers by selling at artificially low prices they can't compete with
• obstructing competitors in the market (or in another related market) by forcing consumers to buy a product which is artificially related to a more popular, in-demand product
• refusing to deal with certain customers or offering special discounts to customers who buy all or most of their supplies from the dominant company
• making the sale of one product conditional on the sale of another product.

GX ceased to be a train company many years ago, yet the wording refers to them as if they were a train company, so that suggests someone has not updated it to reflect the fact that GTR are obliged to convey passengers up to the boundary of Zone 6.

Perhaps I'm being a bit dense but I can't see the references on the London Councils website to W&S and to the Stansted Express?

The WSMR exclusion is under exclusions for Westminster.

Freedom Pass is valid at any time on Chiltern Railways, but NOT on Wrexham & Shropshire

The people who maintain the site probably do not realise GX is not a separate train company, and that the company now operating that route do get paid to convey passengers up to the Zone 6 boundary.

 

[infobleep]

People are confusing the Oyster 60+ with freedom passes it seems and from what I've read they are different.

Thus as I see it, any issues with freedom pass validity is irrelevant to the OP ticketing question as it's an Oyster 60+ product they hold.

 

[bb21]

Apologies for a bit of pedantry but the Greater London Authority (GLA) has nothing to with the Freedom Pass. London Councils, the "umbrella" body for the London Borough councils, is responsible for the administration, issuing and payments for the Freedom Pass product. The London Councils website has the relevant meeting papers etc governing the Freedom Pass and the calculations re payments from the boroughs for each mode.

As others have said the 60+ Pass is a Mayoral initiative paid from TfL's budget and has slightly different validities to the Freedom Pass. I can't actually see anything on TfL's website page about the 60+ Pass that "bans" use on Gatwick Express BUT with the proviso that an extension ticket would be required to reach Gatwick. Clearly no London concessionary product stretches as far as Gatwick Airport. I wonder if TfL have somehow missed a trick in not reflecting the same level of detail as London Councils do in terms of listing "Banned" train companies?

Yes, apologies. I got it confused with the 60+ Oyster card, as several of you corrected above.

My point on the specific validity question remains as it was, obviously.

 

[bb21]

People are confusing the Oyster 60+ with freedom passes it seems and from what I've read they are different.

Thus as I see it, any issues with freedom pass validity is irrelevant to the OP ticketing question as it's an Oyster 60+ product they hold.

You are right. We seem to have all been sidetracked a little.

In the case of 60+ Oyster Photocard (which appears to be the one the OP held), Condition 6 in Section 1 of the terms also explicitly bar travel on Gatwick Express, so my opinion unfortunately remains the same as explained upthread, in the absence of anything to suggest this can be over-ridden with an extension ticket.

https://photocard.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/terms.do

...
6. The 60+ London Oyster photocard is not valid on:
• Virgin Trains
• London Midland and Southern services between Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction
• ScotRail services
• Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted Express services
• Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow, until 20 May 2018 when the service transfers to TfL Rail
• South Eastern High Speed 1 services
...

I understand that enforceability (Is that a word?) on Stansted Express is a little suspect, and the same possibly applies to any service which called at East Croydon but advertised as Gatwick Express, but I don't see any grey area over the "true" non-stop Gatwick Express services clearly advertised as such.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

GX and its predecessors back to 1984 or so never did accept the Freedom Pass (or whatever it was called back then). The current restriction is just a reflection of that.
If you did try and use it on GX you run the risk of a Penalty Fare etc. etc., given the specific wording in the Freedom Pass/60+ rules on the point.
If you do fancy unloading your bags etc. at East Croydon, you will find that the best value fare off peak is the Oyster/Contactless single between GTW and ECR. It's cheaper than GTW to Coulsdon South/Boundary Zone 6!