Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[underbank]

Used to do it on the terraces at football every week!

That's personal choice. There are lots of people who either don't go to football matches or go but sit down. Lots of people have health/mobility issues. You can also walk around, go to the loo, buy a drink, etc at a football match. Completely different scenario and pointless argument in this case.

 

[2HAP]

The trains from which passengers evacuated were:-
2H50 - 2x465, 1x466
2M48 - 1x465, 2x466.
2M50 - 2x376
2S56 - 2x465
2S54 - 3x465

Of the 13 units involved, 2 had no toilets (2M50), 5 of the remaining 11 had toilets out of service. Whether this means all toilets in the units involved, or a number of toilets, I don't know. However, it is not impossible that at least one more train was effectively without toilets.

 

[EM2]

That's personal choice.

I know it is. But it still doesn't mean that people didn't do it. Catching a train is also personal choice.

You can also walk around, go to the loo, buy a drink, etc at a football match. Completely different scenario and pointless argument in this case.

Look at any First Division ground in the 1970s and 1980s and tell me how easy it is to 'walk around, go to the loo, buy a drink, etc'. Terraces would be so crowded that you would be pinned in place, with people so tightly packed that you could often lift your feet off the floor and not fall over.
That's why I was very deliberate to say 'Used to do it on the terraces'.

 

[edwin_m]

If you went to a football match in that era then you would expect those conditions and make sure you "went" beforehand! People expecting to be on a train for maybe 20min might be less prepared, especially as the service was disrupted and they might have decided to jump on the train about to depart instead of going to the toilet and possibly having to wait a while for the next train.

 

[Randomer]

Several member have referred to a "3 hour rule" before controlled evacuation. I seem to have missed where this time frame has come from?

The RDG/NR guidance posted previously seems to show controlled evacuation (onto a rescuing train preferably but onto track if not) being a planned option after an hour in high passenger load conditions.

 

[2HAP]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Lewisham_train_strandings

The Lewisham train strandings occurred on 2 March 2018 in the area of Lewisham, St. John's and New Cross stations during snowy weather. Nine trains were involved. Passengers abandoned five of the trains due to issues including a lack of communication, heating and toilets. No injuries were reported. Network Rail and the Rail Accident Investigation Branch have opened investigations into the incident.

 

[AlterEgo]

(sorry, cannot link to individual tweets or copy as I'm on a work device which blocks it)


Twitter user @DPJHodges, Mail on Sunday political commentator is on a train which has been stuck between Lewisham and London Bridge for at least 45 minutes. An evacuation onto an adjacent train is about to take place according to his feed - very quick decision it seems. See: https://twitter.com/DPJHodges?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Not sure of the headcode of the incident train.

 

[rebmcr]

(sorry, cannot link to individual tweets or copy as I'm on a work device which blocks it)


Twitter user @DPJHodges, Mail on Sunday political commentator is on a train which has been stuck between Lewisham and London Bridge for at least 45 minutes. An evacuation onto an adjacent train is about to take place according to his feed - very quick decision it seems. See: https://twitter.com/DPJHodges?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Not sure of the headcode of the incident train.

While it would be nice if the speedy evacuation here was the result of procedural improvements, I think it's more likely that today's fair weather and off-peak non-disrupted service conditions are the true cause.

 

[AlterEgo]

While it would be nice if the speedy evacuation here was the result of procedural improvements, I think it's more likely that today's fair weather and off-peak non-disrupted service conditions are the true cause.

It’s still very, very fast. 45 minutes since he said the train was stuck to the empty rescue train being alongside. When you factor in lead times that’s exceptionally fast for a decision to have been made - likely within 15-20 minutes of the train being reported a failure.

 

[PermitToTravel]

A hilarious account of the ordeal though - very well written

 

[AlterEgo]

Anyone know the headcode of the stricken train? Unsure exactly how long it was standing for before passengers started reporting it on Twitter.

 

[backontrack]

I don’t think some people really understand that a passenger railway is transporting humans, not inert robots.

Three hours, yards from a station, is bound to cheese some people off. Three hours with no toilets is going to result in someone needing to go. At three hours with no light or heat in this weather, on an apparently crowded train, it's a miracle there were no major medical emergencies. I've seen one report on Twitter from a lady who used a towel to hide the fact she was having a panic attack from other passengers (because hysteria is contagious.)

It's all well and good to say "it's dangerous" and "it's illegal," but if they think they might be in for an overnight stay on a packed train with no toilets or heat a la the New Forest incident, can you blame them? Especially if they were told the power was off because people were walking on the tracks - meaning they knew it was safe?

I know I sound like a stuck record but this keeps happening, and the relevant parties need to get their acts together and understand that in situations like this, people will self-evacuate.

Agreed.

 

[TheAdelante]

This just backs up how all UK trains should have toilets does it not?

 

[robbeech]

There’s reports currently of people stuck on a train for >3 hours again though. Is this a different incident or did something go wrong or are there some lies floating about?

 

[Beebman]

This appears to have been the train involved (2C26 0951 Dartford-CHX): http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W02661/2018/04/05/advanced

It looks like it's been stuck there since about 1020 and it's currently still there according to the Open Train Times map of the area (with a 2Z29 on the opposite line which is presumably the rescue train?)

 

[AlterEgo]

Evacuation train on the move according to @DPJHodges (1 min ago).

 

[AlterEgo]

This appears to have been the train involved (2C26 0951 Dartford-CHX): http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W02661/2018/04/05/advanced

It looks like it's been stuck there since about 1020 and it's currently still there according to the Open Train Times map of the area (with a 2Z29 on the opposite line which is presumably the rescue train?)

So, assuming the train first stopped around 1025, and the evacuation train arrived alongside at 1145, that's 80 minutes. Not the best, but also not too shabby either.

It's not clear why it's taken so long to evacuate one train onto another though. 1145, train pulls alongside, 1405 the evacuation train sets off.

 

[robbeech]

25 minutes ago there was no rescue train movement. I think power supply issues. So it’s another 4 hours + on a train with no facilities job. It appears (from photos) that they’re near some form of access road but I am not sure myself as I don’t know the area so can’t say if that would have been a potentially opportunity to detrain in a controlled manner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

25 minutes ago there was no rescue train movement. I think power supply issues. So it’s another 4 hours + on a train with no facilities job. It appears (from photos) that they’re near some form of access road but I am not sure myself as I don’t know the area so can’t say if that would have been a potentially opportunity to detrain in a controlled manner.

Should consideration be given to having properly surfaced and fenced off evacuation walkways alongside lines where there is space to do this, therefore making an on-foot evacuation safer and easier?

 

[robbeech]

I don’t think it should be expected as the change to infrastructure would be huge. But where it is already available perhaps they should at least look into using it.

 

[Beebman]

Report from the local news media: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...n-southeastern-train-at-lewisham-for-3-hours/

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t think it should be expected as the change to infrastructure would be huge. But where it is already available perhaps they should at least look into using it.

Depends on where. For instance, East West Rail could and should be built with such a thing, as it's basically a full rebuild.

 

[ScotGG]

Four hours again.

http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk...stuck-for-four-hours-at-lewisham-again-today/

 

[Bletchleyite]

Four hours again.

http://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk...stuck-for-four-hours-at-lewisham-again-today/

Not acceptable.

 

[AlterEgo]

This most recent incident seems to have been exacerbated by issues that happened after the rescue train drew alongside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure there are reasons. But what it's telling me is that if a rescue plan to empty a train within an hour of stopping irrevocably cannot be devised (and I understand why it can't), no train should enter service from any terminus without at least one working toilet with a manually operable door. (Even where the power is off and it can't be flushed, a few people can still use it as an emergency matter before it overflows).

So in the first instance SE need to be made to solve their bog problem whatever it costs them, and in the second instance the trains they have without bogs need them fitting. And a train with them fitted starting its journey from any given station with no toilet facility in operation needs a financial penalty to the TOC of maybe £10 less than an outright cancellation.

To me it is about time that toilet urgency for medical reasons was considered a proper disability (because practically it certainly is one, and it's also sexual discrimination because only men can easily pop into a bush or similar) and failure to properly cater for it where reasonably possible was considered discrimination on the same level as failure to provide for more obvious disabilities like wheelchair users.

 

[carriageline]

I’ve been forwarded the control log and, I think it shows that evacuating a train is not as easy or as quick as people think. It also seemed to be a very long and slow process, with train to train being the only option.

Decision was made quite quickly, just implementing it and completing it, not so.

 

[rebmcr]

I’ve been forwarded the control log and, I think it shows that evacuating a train is not as easy or as quick as people think. It also seemed to be a very long and slow process, with train to train being the only option.

Decision was made quite quickly, just implementing it and completing it, not so.

Are you able to discuss some of the reasons that make evacuation difficult and/or slow? I understand that you're unlikely to be able to go into specifics.

 

[backontrack]

I'm sure there are reasons. But what it's telling me is that if a rescue plan to empty a train within an hour of stopping irrevocably cannot be devised (and I understand why it can't), no train should enter service from any terminus without at least one working toilet with a manually operable door. (Even where the power is off and it can't be flushed, a few people can still use it as an emergency matter before it overflows).

So in the first instance SE need to be made to solve their bog problem whatever it costs them, and in the second instance the trains they have without bogs need them fitting. And a train with them fitted starting its journey from any given station with no toilet facility in operation needs a financial penalty to the TOC of maybe £10 less than an outright cancellation.

To me it is about time that toilet urgency for medical reasons was considered a proper disability (because practically it certainly is one, and it's also sexual discrimination because only men can easily pop into a bush or similar) and failure to properly cater for it where reasonably possible was considered discrimination on the same level as failure to provide for more obvious disabilities like wheelchair users.

Hear hear. Once again, it must be remembered that passengers (not 'customers' or 'consumers') are people and not inert robots designed to give the train companies a profit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another useful design element would be for vacuum toilets to be set up to drain urine to the tank without the use of the vacuum facility. Then an "out of use" toilet can be used unpowered for far longer.