Indeed. I think a simple “Change at Machynlleth for stations to Pwllheli” tagged onto the end of both the announcements and the CIS would be acceptable - or if there is no limit, just list the stations in full as now.
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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
The stakeholders in Merionydd will be going apoplectic that the possibility of a Cambrian train not having a Coast portion is being discussed.As Ive said before there's really only a market for about 3 through trains off the Coast to England even in high summer. The current pattern has really only arisen because of unit diagrams with a constrained fleet. Allegedly the new franchise will change that.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
As Ive said before there's really only a market for about 3 through trains off the Coast to England even in high summer. The current pattern has really only arisen because of unit diagrams with a constrained fleet. Allegedly the new franchise will change that.
I fear that will mean the loss of any regular interval type service on the Coast.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
When we get a full hourly service on the Cambrian mainline alternating between a 2 car and then a 4 car will see a lot of spare capacity west of Shrewsbury. The 08xx departure from Machynlleth used to be 4 car a portion from Aberystwyth and Barmouth, The Barmouth portion was taken off on weekdays when extra trains were introduced an hour before and an hour afterward .It can be full at Newtown Monday's and Fridays but otherwise ok, especially as the first train from Pwllheli now connects with the 0630 ex Aberystwyth. The focus on the coast should be on a usable Sunday service and extra capacity on line in high summer not through trains to England.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
TBH I wouldn't mind if they didn't offer any through trains at all - but to me a consistent pattern (be that hourly or two-hourly) is very important, as is a quality cross platform connection, which I don't really think Mach can provide properly as it involves traipsing over the bridge.
If there was a way to construct a bay or an island at Mach it'd do. You could then run the coast as Pwllheli-Mach-Aber-Mach-Pwllheli on a 2 hour frequency connecting with the 4 car Aber service.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Only 5 of the 9 coast trains do it now. There timed to be in Machynlleth first and the ones that don't join up clear out of the platform and shunt across before the arrival from Aberystwyth.
The Coast portion trains do seem well loaded these days. I boarded at Minffordd last week and nearly every seat was taken in both carriages - We also stopped at nearly every request stop too with people leaving/boarding (except Tonfanau).
The Coast portion is weird, it’s like a rural metro set up with stops every few minutes. There’s enough towns to generate healthy traffic throughout the whole route. Also a fair amount of reservations from the Coast to places like Shrewsbury/Telford/Wolverhampton too (but a bit of discretion needed as it was half term). Someone even boarded at a request stop and bought a return to Marylebone!
The Coast portion is weird, it’s like a rural metro set up with stops every few minutes. There’s enough towns to generate healthy traffic throughout the whole route. Also a fair amount of reservations from the Coast to places like Shrewsbury/Telford/Wolverhampton too (but a bit of discretion needed as it was half term). Someone even boarded at a request stop and bought a return to Marylebone!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The best parallel to the Coast is probably a Cornish branch line, but one many times longer. It's good to see it getting good custom.
If you were going to look to improve the service on it, though, given how many stops there are, a high acceleration DMU with a low top speed would probably fit it better than a Class 158. You could I guess customise a 230 or two to be perfect for it (3 car sets), or maybe Stadler would do a UK gauge WINK. And base the service on quality connections, making all Aber services 4-car throughout instead of portion working.
Features like lots of luggage space, space for 4 or even 6 bikes, facing seating and bus style request stop buttons would be good additions.
If you were going to look to improve the service on it, though, given how many stops there are, a high acceleration DMU with a low top speed would probably fit it better than a Class 158. You could I guess customise a 230 or two to be perfect for it (3 car sets), or maybe Stadler would do a UK gauge WINK. And base the service on quality connections, making all Aber services 4-car throughout instead of portion working.
Features like lots of luggage space, space for 4 or even 6 bikes, facing seating and bus style request stop buttons would be good additions.
berneyarms
Established Member
Why would you need to go to those lengths?
You do realise that it is perfectly possible to deliver connections between the coast services and the mainline in both directions at Dovey Junction with cross-platform interchange if an hourly Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth service is provided.
Plus it retains the standard pattern along the coast.
I suspect that’s what is planned by the sounds of things.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Dyfi would actually be really good for quality connections if facilities (staff, toilets etc) were provided. You could build a very nice building sensitive to the location in the "V". But I guess it would be difficult getting planning permission.
Mach is a nuisance having a bridge rather than an island platform with a west facing bay (which would be the ideal), don't know how easy rebuilding it would be.
berneyarms
Established Member
Given the closeness of arrivals and departures at Dovey Junction I’m not sure you’d need many facilities - just look at the ATW timetable pdfs and you’ll see what I mean.
It’s not as big an issue as people seem to think.
If there’s late running I’m sure that the coast train could take the passengers to Machynlleth if necessary.
I think Machynlleth is fine - there is lift access now too and it’s not in the middle of a field. The issue with Dovey Junction is if you were to alight from one side, the doors are closed, you have a look at the relevant departure board and see your train has been cancelled and then you’re stranded for 1-2 hours with nothing! I just can’t see a station building and staffing being provided there. Dovey Junction is great though for when the extra Aber trains call as you have 5 minutes there to change there rather than having to wait an hour at Mach.
Low top speed and good acceleration you say? Double 143s/144s with reconfigured layouts anyone?
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Why would it need staff? Especially as there is only very poor foot access to the station, and no vehicular access. The majority of the stations on this line are unmanned and all seem to cope perfectly well.
For someone who says he has experience of the Cambrian, I do wonder about some of your ideas!
How are you going to rebuild a listed building, with platforms on a narrow embankment and partly on a listed bridge?
Works in principle, but you have to remember you have stations run by other operators and I'm not 100% how/if a note can be added across those stations. Darwin might (Cross Country do something like it I think) be able to master it, but then remember that various operators disconnect from Darwin during disruption sometimes, although i think this has reduced now. If Darwin cannot do it you are relying on other operators control adding it, fine if they are having a quiet day, not so much if not!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If it became the primary interchange it would need people to assist when things go wrong. That, AIUI, is one reason why people are mostly (where the timetable permits) encouraged to change at Mach instead even if it might technically be an "illegal" double back for some journeys.
I am challenged to understand why the PIS code is "difficult to obtain" as someone somewhere must know where the train is to stop and join/split, and the relevant code, even if it is working off the standard schedule. It must be possible to provide the information to whoever sets up the PIS for a given run.
What I am concious is more difficult is communicating to the passengers which set in a train is going where, especially with reversals such as Shrewsbury and Chester and that maybe the current PIS is not the best tool.
What I am concious is more difficult is communicating to the passengers which set in a train is going where, especially with reversals such as Shrewsbury and Chester and that maybe the current PIS is not the best tool.
Perhaps my biggest worry if the Cambrian Coast service is a connection rather than a through portion to Birmingham is that the service will be reduced to 2-cars west of Shrewsbury for all trains. The train (particularly the Aberystwyth portion) was pretty busy between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury when the timetable was just every two hours; with the extra traffic generated from going hourly but no extra seats (still 4 carriages per two hours) I fear many passengers would be without seats. The 159s would have done nicely had the new South Western Railway franchise replaced their fleet on-mass as Greater Anglia are planning; 2x159 (or 158+159) out of Birmingham every hour with one 3-car unit for Aberystwyth and one unit for Pwllheli every two hours and Chester (via Wrexham) in the others.
I don't see why you would need an island platform at Machynlleth; simply have the train from Machynlleth to Pwllheli depart from the same platform as the train to Aberystwyth, following a few minutes behind it. Similarly, in the other direction, the train from Pwllheli should arrive a few minutes ahead of the train from Aberystwyth, then shunt into the depot allowing the Aberystwyth train to pull into the platform just vacated by the train from Pwllheli. You would only need to cross the footbridge if connecting between the Aberystwyth line and the Pwllheli line (as the trains are travelling in opposite directions) in which case (with an hourly Aberystwyth-Birmingham service) changing at Dovey Junction is probably the better option.
230s would not be suitable; too much door and therefore probably not enough space for legroom, toilets and seats and probably not enough uninterupted window area. The 158s are just about as good as it could be assuming the service continues to run through to Shrewsbury/Birmingham. If it is only going to be Pwllheli-Machynlleth, class 156s would be nearer the mark but there are not enough off them available (156s would also be great for Swansea-Pembrokeshire and Heart Of Wales services, which would use all 14 currently due off-lease (9 from Anglia and 5 from ScotRail)) and you would have an isolated micro-fleet (you need 90mph or better stock for Machynlleth to Shrewsbury, which is of course the only link to the rest of the network).
The architects working on the redevelopment of Cardiff Central seem to think it is acceptable to demolish listed buildings; I think what is proposed for Cardiff Central is outragous and unacceptable but nobody seems to be doing anything about it.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Nice to get back onto thread. Thakyou Rhydgalyd. 158s will stay for now, surely as nobody would go to the expense of fitting another fleet with ERTMS
Gareth Marston
Established Member
If we see much improvement beyond the sacred "Core Valley Lines" & "Flagship Hourly Service from Cardiff to Holyhead" I think most of us will be surprised. Its been clear that the political priorities of a small group of people in Cardiff Bay have taken precedence over the transport needs of Wales and the Borders for some time now.
Skates has verbally promised that the Two Hourly Holyhead to Birmingham trains via Wrexham will continue which seems to indicate that the current 158 chop and change join/decouple pattern will continue. If we can get all the current ATW 158 fleet concentrated in the circuit Holyhead/Wrexham/Pwllheli/Aberystwyth/ Shrewsbury/Birmingham International then we can get some improvements but I don't think given the number of diagrams needed versus the fleet size will allow any reforming into 3 car services.
Skates has verbally promised that the Two Hourly Holyhead to Birmingham trains via Wrexham will continue which seems to indicate that the current 158 chop and change join/decouple pattern will continue. If we can get all the current ATW 158 fleet concentrated in the circuit Holyhead/Wrexham/Pwllheli/Aberystwyth/ Shrewsbury/Birmingham International then we can get some improvements but I don't think given the number of diagrams needed versus the fleet size will allow any reforming into 3 car services.
I agree that the future TOC is unlikely to retro-fit an existing fleet with ETCS for the Cambrian, but if the franchise orders new trains then one option would be to order a new fleet of twenty-something 3-car units for the Cambrian and cascade the 158s elsewhere (perhaps being paired up to provide 4-car trains to boost capacity on services which are currently 3-car 175s).
There aren't many ATW 158s not already diagramed for work on that circuit are there? I assume that at least two of the diagrams away from the Cambrian are required to cycle the units through Canton depot (they can't do particularly heavy maintainance in that small shed at Machynlleth can they?) So if the Birmingham-Wrexham service is going to carry on going through to Holyhead, a new fleet is pretty much the only option to get more units for a proper hourly Aberystwyth-Birmingham service. Holyhead-Birmingham really ought to be via Crewe and Stafford, not via Wrexham, in my opinion; at least once HS2 reaches Crewe when the current ICWC Euston-Holyhead services could be re-routed via Birmingham (because they would no longer need to get to London so quickly, as HS2 would be faster anyway).
Gareth Marston
Established Member
2026 is nearly the end of the next franchise (2028) so n Wales to West Midlands via Stafford is out.
The current 158 "circuit" has 16 units in it plus one more that goes on shed In Machynlleth after doing an early morning coast turn. There's 2 in the North Wales to Manchester cicuit, 2 overnight in S Wales and a South Wales turn that starts in Chester. So there's potentially another 4 allowing for a run to Cardiff to add if you can concentrate the fleet.
The current 158 "circuit" has 16 units in it plus one more that goes on shed In Machynlleth after doing an early morning coast turn. There's 2 in the North Wales to Manchester cicuit, 2 overnight in S Wales and a South Wales turn that starts in Chester. So there's potentially another 4 allowing for a run to Cardiff to add if you can concentrate the fleet.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Difficulties pathing via Stafford and, if so, wouldn't be a true Wales and Borders service by passing places like Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Telford and others.
I still think there would be merit in north Wales to Birmingham via Stafford even before HS2; but in that case it wouldn't run to/from Euston and I would be suggesting Birmingham-Bangor-Caernarfon with the Holyheads coming from Manchester (and the Llandundo stoppers from Liverpool). With HS2, the pattern could be Euston-Birmingham-Holyhead, Manchester-Bangor-Caernarfon and Llandudno-Liverpool.
I'm not suggesting that the Wales & Borders franchise cease to serve the Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Telford-Birmingham route. I just think that service (which interworks with the Cambrian) should not run through onto the north Wales coast beyond Wrexham/Chester since north Wales to Birmingham is quicker via Stafford (sometimes even when you change at Chester and/or Crewe and include the time waiting between trains). It would also mean that north Wales coast to Birmingham trains would no longer need to be fitted with ETCS (at present they need ETCS because of the interworking with the Cambrian).
I've posted before that if the paths cannot be found for the most-obvious route (through Chester, Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley) is not possible then I think alternative routes from Stafford to Birmingham (eg. avoiding Wolverhampton) should be investigated.
I personally think long term, trains should run from Birmingham Intl and split at Wolverhampton with half going to Holyhead via Stafford and half to Chester via Shrewsbury (with this half being advertised to Wrexham General as far as Wolverhampton, and ‘Chester’ after. This would speed up direct travel along the North Wales Coast but still give Wrexham a direct link to Birmingham.
What would you do with the Cambrian services in that case? Coming from Telford, the only option is to go into Wolverhampton station which I think could be the most-difficult point to path extra trains through. Coming from Stafford, Wolverhampton station can be avoided by heading directly towards Bescot Stadium using a freght-only line. From Bescot Stadium there are two possible routes to Birmingham; via Soho or via Aston (or the train could take a circular route, out one way and back the other); another option might be to build a chord off Soho route onto the Chiltern line into Moor Street.
The Cambrian services would be as they are now - 1tph to Shrewsbury with 1tp2h extending to Birmingham Intl. Passengers can change at Shrewsbury for the ex-Chester service which would join up at Wolverhampton with the ex Holyhead one.
Though as you suggest, if the pathing permits I see no reason why a self contained Holyhead to Birmingham via Aston or Soho wouldn’t be a good idea and then you’d have a similar set up to now but with 1tp2h going to Chester via instead of to Holyhead.
I don’t know. There are a lot of options for the North Wales Coast!
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I've never understood the sense of entitlement to through trains to everywhere from the North Wales Coast, plenty of other places had one or two trains a day historically from different places but no one seems to want hordes of regular interval services to them today. I'm looking at my 1904 Cambrian Railways timetable and back then I would be waving off trains from Newtown to Paddington, BHM Snow Hill, Euston, Stafford, Wrexham Central, Chester, Liverpool Lime St, Manchester Central, Manchester London Rd, Sheffield Victoria, Nottingham Victoria and Leicester Central!
Let's be brutality honest the footfall on the north wales coast has not grown anywhere near the national average and is only around two thirds that Chester generates. Someone needs to think about what needs to be done to grow usage on the coast not just obsess with through trains to far away places.
Let's be brutality honest the footfall on the north wales coast has not grown anywhere near the national average and is only around two thirds that Chester generates. Someone needs to think about what needs to be done to grow usage on the coast not just obsess with through trains to far away places.
This. A thousand times this!
There are two places people* in North Wales want to go* (primarily) beyond Chester : Manchester and London (via Crewe). Liverpool, Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Birmingham and that upstart coal dock at the mouth of the River Taff are way down the list.
* By people I mean private individuals and corporate bodies (businesses, local authorities etc); by "want to go" I don't necessarily mean the places with the highest demand - though they probably coincide - but the perceived "attractive" destinations.
Flat junctions at Soho and Wolverhampton; intensive service already at Aston. Doubt it would work.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
It's true that increasing expectations have not been matched by increased footfall beyond Chester. Wrexham is also flat, while Chester and Shrewsbury are steadily up.
I also have my doubts about Merseyrail footfall figures which also show a falling trend (though the multimode fare system and the repeated closure of the tunnel infrastructure may be part of this).
But against that, the local service on the coast has not actually improved in 20 years of privatisation - it's still 2tph split between Manchester-Llandudno and Holyhead-Chester.
All that Arriva did was point the existing Holyhead trains in different directions east/south of Chester (and downgrade them from all-175s to a mix of 150/158/175).
Adding Gerald was about the only true addition, plus the separate increase in Virgin services from 3 to 6 a day after WCRM - which was nothing to do with WG or Arriva.
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