Arriva Rail North DOO

[agbrs_Jack]

I've noticed on the Northern website they currently suggest the 99 bus to Macclesfield is an alternative, despite the fact the 99 is operated by D&G when there's an alternative Arriva service and Arriva buses are supposed to be accepting rail tickets.

The 99 operates from just over a mile away from the station, into the centre of Macclesfield, same with the 38 (Crewe-Congleton-Macclesfield)
The 99 also takes over 30 minutes (Around 40 I believe), So northern expect people to walk ~1.5 miles then get a slow bus when there are trains of the same parent company that speed through non-stop.

 

[northwichcat]

The 99 operates from just over a mile away from the station, into the centre of Macclesfield, same with the 38 (Crewe-Congleton-Macclesfield)
The 99 also takes over 30 minutes (Around 40 I believe), So northern expect people to walk ~1.5 miles then get a slow bus when there are trains of the same parent company that speed through non-stop.

Do many rail users live or work very close to the station?

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Do many rail users live or work very close to the station?

I'd say it's fairly similar walking/driving based on the car park level (normally full) - although a decent amount of people started walking when they introduced the £3 parking charge, Lots of estates around the station (The station is in Mossley rather than Congleton, Mossley is a part of Congleton (Some may say a more wealthy part) though and Congleton is a better name as it's better known and 'Mossley' could cause confusion with Mossley (GM).
Point is, A LOT of people walk, but the car park is still close to full (+cars that park on the stoke side to avoid the £3)

 

[northwichcat]

A lot of impact is taken away, at least in Yorkshire, by the fact you can just catch the bus during strike days with your rail ticket. I did notice quite an increase in staff being able to carry out ticket checks / sales during the strike on Monday compared to previous strikes!

There also seems to be an increase in the number of trains experiencing minor delays (1-3 minutes) on strike days this week compared to previous strike days.

 

[johntea]

Funny you should say that, the 08:59 Leeds to Knaresborough decided it's doors had joined the strike! Put out of its misery about 09:25 after the engineers gave up, luckily the 09:29 service was running!

It got me thinking, it was at Leeds so not much of an issue but who would report and co-ordinate a response to such an issue if it happened at somewhere a bit more ‘remote’ such as at Weston station? Is that a driver or a guard responsibility usually?

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Funny you should say that, the 08:59 Leeds to Knaresborough decided it's doors had joined the strike! Put out of its misery about 09:25 after the engineers gave up, luckily the 09:29 service was running!

It got me thinking, it was at Leeds so not much of an issue but who would report and co-ordinate a response to such an issue if it happened at somewhere a bit more ‘remote’ such as at Weston station? Is that a driver or a guard responsibility usually?

TTL would usually want to speak to the driver in any incidence of this nature. Not because they don't like talking to the guard, but because they need to be in communication with the driver if the unit is failed. It really is a team effort, but more often than not the guard will know considerably more about door faults simply because they see them more.
Rather surprised they found a fitter at Leeds at that time of day. Or was it just a manager who turned up with a wing and a prayer.
Personally I wouldn't want to be on a train with a door fault being run by a scab guard, their knowledge is questionable to say the least.

 

[Robertj21a]

TTL would usually want to speak to the driver in any incidence of this nature. Not because they don't like talking to the guard, but because they need to be in communication with the driver if the unit is failed. It really is a team effort, but more often than not the guard will know considerably more about door faults simply because they see them more.
Rather surprised they found a fitter at Leeds at that time of day. Or was it just a manager who turned up with a wing and a prayer.
Personally I wouldn't want to be on a train with a door fault being run by a scab guard, their knowledge is questionable to say the least.

Just an aside........

Any chance that you could drop the 'scab' from your postings ? - it does nobody any favours and, in my view, rather singles you out as some sort of bitter and twisted individual with a grudge.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Just an aside........

rather singles you out as some sort of bitter and twisted individual with a grudge.

That is right. I am.

Although that said, I kinda feel sorry for the **** guards. A awful lot of them know that if DCO comes in, their little positions they have wormed themselves into might disappear overnight. Must be tough that knowing you might be digging your own grave with a smile..

 

[pompeyfan]

TTL would usually want to speak to the driver in any incidence of this nature. Not because they don't like talking to the guard, but because they need to be in communication with the driver if the unit is failed. It really is a team effort, but more often than not the guard will know considerably more about door faults simply because they see them more.
Rather surprised they found a fitter at Leeds at that time of day. Or was it just a manager who turned up with a wing and a prayer.
Personally I wouldn't want to be on a train with a door fault being run by a scab guard, their knowledge is questionable to say the least.

I know a fair few guards that aren’t partaking in the action and are crossing picket lines, all of them have their reasons, what about these people, their safety competence is the same as the ones who aren’t going in to work.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Then they should be expelled from the union, when they need help tough.

 

[185143]

TTL would usually want to speak to the driver in any incidence of this nature. Not because they don't like talking to the guard, but because they need to be in communication with the driver if the unit is failed. It really is a team effort, but more often than not the guard will know considerably more about door faults simply because they see them more.
Rather surprised they found a fitter at Leeds at that time of day. Or was it just a manager who turned up with a wing and a prayer.
Personally I wouldn't want to be on a train with a door fault being run by a scab guard, their knowledge is questionable to say the least.

Agreed! (And edited...)

 

[Chester1]

That is right. I am.

Although that said, I kinda feel sorry for the **** guards. A awful lot of them know that if DCO comes in, their little positions they have wormed themselves into might disappear overnight. Must be tough that knowing you might be digging your own grave with a smile..

How did calling Nottinghamshire miners & co "scabs" workout for striking miners? Didn't the scabs mines stay open about a decade longer and the areas have prospered better than millitant areas? Its an attitude that is best left in the 80s.

Scabs implies that people who choose not to strike should have put some sort of tribal aligiance before their own views. Plenty of people don't think like that anymore. I don't support DOO on Northern but that sort of language loses sympathy from those who don't hate the tories.

 

[PR1Berske]

Then they should be expelled from the union, when they need help tough.

Yeah, this attitude doesn't help anybody.

 

[Dentonian]

There also seems to be an increase in the number of trains experiencing minor delays (1-3 minutes) on strike days this week compared to previous strike days.

Funnilly enough, no ticket checks on Monday, wheras on previous strike days there have been 5, 6 or 7 waiting to ambush passengers getting off. As regards delays, strike days have been generally better than normal days, but we had the farcical (given the reduction in total number of trains) situation of having to wait outside Piccadilly for a platform to become vacant. The delay at least meant I didn't have to make the choice of very full train or (not exactly empty) bus home, as I didn't have time to get to Piccadilly for the train.

 

[Andrew32]

From what I'm hearing the RMT are willing to make concessions including giving up full door control (both release and closing) on 50% of mileage the understanding that there is a fully safety trained guard (including PTS) on every train and they have full route knowledge.

That might suggest agreement is not that far off. It would be a very strange situation if the agreement the DfT have allowed Southern to reach with ASLEF was not acceptable on Northern.

This solution was offered by the RMT at the start of July 2017 and swiftly rejected by the company after a break in negotiations of around an hour given the fact that the company still had to guarentee a second person on every train.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Yeah, this attitude doesn't help anybody.

No your right it doesn't, however I assume you've not had a job striking colleague making "funny" comments about how much they were earning on RDW whilst you were striking to protect their job !

 

[woodmally]

Quick question then following the update from ACAS regarding the Merseyrail RMT dispute do you think this will have an impact on this dispute?

 

[northwichcat]

Quick question then following the update from ACAS regarding the Merseyrail RMT dispute do you think this will have an impact on this dispute?

No. Northern aren't proposing 100% DCO/DOO so have the option of changing which routes get DCO/DOO, while Merseytravel proposed 100% DCO/DOO. Also Merseytravel is under the control of local Labour politicians while Northern have a franchise let by DfT (under the control of Conservative politicians), even if Rail North (predominately Labour) signed off the spec.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Yeah, this attitude doesn't help anybody.

If you want the benefits of membership of a democratic organisation then you should abide by the decisions of that democratic organisation.

I have no issue with non-union members crossing picket lines, because they don't get the benefits of union membership.

I do have issues with union members- who'll be the first to come running to the shop steward when they're the ones getting picked on- crossing picket lines. I don't care about why they've crossed the picket line, they're still undermining their colleagues and undermining the union they're a member of. And a weak and undermined union isn't going to be much help when they're the ones getting bullied by their boss.

 

[northwichcat]

I do have issues with union members- who'll be the first to come running to the shop steward when they're the ones getting picked on- crossing picket lines. I don't care about why they've crossed the picket line, they're still undermining their colleagues and undermining the union they're a member of. And a weak and undermined union isn't going to be much help when they're the ones getting bullied by their boss.

So you'd be happy for union bosses to bully their members, even if bullying by bosses is completely unacceptable?

If there's members crossing picket lines then surely that suggests it's time for another ballot on the issue and that members are voting with their feet because the RMT are too scared to re-ballot their members due to the change in balloting rules (even though if they still have as much support as last time they'll easily get enough votes to continue with industrial action.) How many members who voted two years expected the RMT to keep on calling strikes and not to re-ballot even if the concessions offered by the employer were minimal?

 

[Tetchytyke]

So you'd be happy for union bosses to bully their members, even if bullying by bosses is completely unacceptable?

Bullying? Of course not.

But if someone deliberately undermines collective action taken by the collective they chose to be a member of, it's better for all concerned if they reconsider their membership of that collective.

If there's members crossing picket lines then surely that suggests it's time for another ballot on the issue

If enough members want that, then they can call for a new ballot. That's the joy of being a member of a democratic organisation.

And if enough members want to end the strike, then the strike will end. Those who want to keep striking would be outvoted and would have to accept it.

 

[Carlisle]

Quick question then following the update from ACAS regarding the Merseyrail RMT dispute do you think this will have an impact on this dispute?

Yes, if the RMT manage to gain a Scotrail deal rather than a Southern one from Merseyrail , id fully expect the number of northern strikes to increase significantly, just as they did on Southern once Scotrail conceded.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Bullying? Of course not.

But if someone deliberately undermines collective action taken by the collective they chose to be a member of, it's better for all concerned if they reconsider their membership of that collective.



If enough members want that, then they can call for a new ballot. That's the joy of being a member of a democratic organisation.

And if enough members want to end the strike, then the strike will end. Those who want to keep striking would be outvoted and would have to accept it.

If that was the case then the dispute on Southern would be well over, the guards and OBS have moved on. Strike days 95% of On Board staff come into work, the Conductors for example don’t see the point they’ve kept their job so why would they strike? In the case of Selhurst they ain’t going to be getting rid of them anytime soon not whilst the 171s are in operation which they’ve just got more of and Milton Keynes is obviously guarded past Clapham Junction along with the duties working with Southeastern drivers. Look at photos of the recent strike picket lines you’ll only see about 3 staff on them. But no the RMT on this occasion especially on the South East region don’t want to give in even though the current arrangements have been in place for over one year

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't guarantee the WLL services remaining guarded. If WMT decide to go DOO on the south WCML (which has not been ruled out) I'm sure they too will switch.

 

[woodmally]

Yes, if the RMT manage to gain a Scotrail deal rather than a Southern one from Merseyrail , id fully expect the number of northern strikes to increase significantly, just as they did on Southern once Scotrail conceded.

One thing I don't understand. Northern cannot scrap DOO plans as they are part of the franchise agreement. How was it achieved in Scotland. Did the Scottish government concede or was it not part of that agreement? I keep hearing RMT wanting the same as in Scotland but I doubt its that simple. Northern keep saying the agreement means they have to implement DOO. I can't see them lying somehow as surely the agreement is on record.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing I don't understand. Northern cannot scrap DOO plans as they are part of the franchise agreement. How was it achieved in Scotland. Did the Scottish government concede or was it not part of that agreement? I keep hearing RMT wanting the same as in Scotland but I doubt its that simple. Northern keep saying the agreement means they have to implement DOO. I can't see them lying somehow as surely the agreement is on record.

Northern's franchise agreement says they must have the driver both opening and closing the doors for 50% of passenger mileage and yes it's in the public domain but with some bits which are 'commercially sensitive' are omitted from the version in the public domain. The RMT has been pushing for driver releases and guard closes, despite knowing Northern can't agree to it, presumably to make it look like their willing to compromise without agreeing to a compromise which Northern might actually accept. It's also worth noting the franchise agreement specifies that Northern are to plan for a non-driving member of franchise staff to be on all DCO services but if certain (unknown) conditions are met the service is allowed to operate with just the driver on board.

 

[Carlisle]

How was it achieved in Scotland. Did the Scottish government concede or was it not part of that agreement? .

The Scottish government conceded after a dispute lasting about 7 months. presumably it wasn’t a major problem for their transport minister to amend the agreement with Abellio to keep guards rather than the original plan to convert the newly electrified lines to ticket examiners as in the SPT area .

 

[pompeyfan]

Genuine question to all RMT members on this page that are taking action, Northern, SWR, Southern, Merseyrail, GA and I’m sure there’s a few I’ve missed as well.

Do you actually think this is a winnable fight? Or are you taking action because of the old mantra of ‘if you fight, you might still lose, but if you run, you’ll definitely lose’.

Personally I can’t see the DfT moving from their initial position, they’ll just get fed up and do what they done on Southern, tear up their contracts, 90 days notice and put people on crap T&Cs because they know the RMT aren’t going to accept that grade.

What does make things a bit more interesting is that some of the TOCs (from what I can tell) is that the 2nd member of staff will maintain all current safety critical knowledge (including knowledge of dispatch), but services will still run if there’s no one to meet the train.

Do any of the guards taking action regret not taking the bribes at the beginning of the disputes? Reduced working week etc....? I’m sure I know the answer to that though.

 

[Dave1987]

Genuine question to all RMT members on this page that are taking action, Northern, SWR, Southern, Merseyrail, GA and I’m sure there’s a few I’ve missed as well.

Do you actually think this is a winnable fight? Or are you taking action because of the old mantra of ‘if you fight, you might still lose, but if you run, you’ll definitely lose’.

Personally I can’t see the DfT moving from their initial position, they’ll just get fed up and do what they done on Southern, tear up their contracts, 90 days notice and put people on crap T&Cs because they know the RMT aren’t going to accept that grade.

What does make things a bit more interesting is that some of the TOCs (from what I can tell) is that the 2nd member of staff will maintain all current safety critical knowledge (including knowledge of dispatch), but services will still run if there’s no one to meet the train.

Do any of the guards taking action regret not taking the bribes at the beginning of the disputes? Reduced working week etc....? I’m sure I know the answer to that though.

I certainly know how my friends and colleagues feel who I work with feel. ‘If you are optional and expendable you will get screwed over’. I don’t believe the actions/words of Peter Wilkinson or our Transport Secretary, Mr Grayling, have done anything to alleviate those fears by them trying to make out this is all just a big political game and just ignoring people’s genuine fears. I don’t believe what has happened on Southern has helped either. One of my very good friends joked with me recently that they would be out of a job soon anyway or the pay and conditions will be degraded so much that the job will become intolerable. It’s all about winning hearts and minds and the Government is not doing that at all, or they just don’t care......

 

[northwichcat]

I certainly know how my friends and colleagues feel who I work with feel. ‘If you are optional and expendable you will get screwed over’. I don’t believe the actions/words of Peter Wilkinson or our Transport Secretary, Mr Grayling, have done anything to alleviate those fears by them trying to make out this is all just a big political game and just ignoring people’s genuine fears. I don’t believe what has happened on Southern has helped either. One of my very good friends joked with me recently that they would be out of a job soon anyway or the pay and conditions will be degraded so much that the job will become intolerable. It’s all about winning hearts and minds and the Government is not doing that at all, or they just don’t care......

It's not surprising the government want to decrease rail subsides and increase rail premiums. The Conservatives have failed to bring the deficit under control - every time Osborne recouped some money from spending cuts he gave it away in ways that pleased the loyal Tories - cutting the top rate of income tax, cutting corporation tax, introducing the married couple's allowance, cutting corporation tax etc. Yet the railways need urgent investment and without tax increases (which would cause the Tories to lose voters as their manifesto promises would be broken) or removing funding from another area like the NHS, Education or Defence the only options are fare rises and TOCs reducing their operating costs.