Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[BigCj34]

This is true ! My calling that corridor "The Little North Western" is a simplification, although I feel justified in calling it that as Skipton - Wennington comprises the lions share of the old Little North Western (and the current day route).

The route is interesting and scenic, if a little slow. However it will be a lot more useful with later departures.

Given that there are very few cross-country routes between Preston and the Scottish central belt, the Bentham line is very useful for getting to Leeds or indeed parts of the north-east from North Lancashire and South Cumbria, and certainly quicker than going via Manchester.

 

[yorksrob]

Given that there are very few cross-country routes between Preston and the Scottish central belt, the Bentham line is very useful for getting to Leeds or indeed parts of the north-east from North Lancashire and South Cumbria, and certainly quicker than going via Manchester.

A lot less stressful and overcrowded as well, in my experience.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If these times remain the same and there's no changes to the current local services, they will mostly leave just before a local.

A neccesity so they dont catch up the locals.

 

[Bantamzen]

A neccesity so they dont catch up the locals.

I was just about to say that myself. Timetable-wise Leeds to Skipton are shown as the same running times for both locals and the Carlisle/Morecombe skip-stoppers, however in reality they do often make up time behind the locals especially in the peaks. Just as an example yesterday the 17:56 Leeds-Skipton (2H60) arrived into Skipton at 18:38, and the 18:06 Leeds-Carlisle (2H96) arrived just four minutes later at 18:42. If a local ran directly in front of the skip-stoppers then the latter would regularly be slowed down behind.

It is a problem for Northern planners, how to convince local passengers to use the EMU services rather than the shorter yet longer distance DMU services. Perhaps when the 331s are running in pairs, and the DMU cascade has made a significant difference then the Morecambe / Carlisle services can be lengthened meaning more capacity for the peak services and passengers, as more local passengers can shoehorn onto the locals?

 

[northernchris]

I was just about to say that myself. Timetable-wise Leeds to Skipton are shown as the same running times for both locals and the Carlisle/Morecombe skip-stoppers, however in reality they do often make up time behind the locals especially in the peaks. Just as an example yesterday the 17:56 Leeds-Skipton (2H60) arrived into Skipton at 18:38, and the 18:06 Leeds-Carlisle (2H96) arrived just four minutes later at 18:42. If a local ran directly in front of the skip-stoppers then the latter would regularly be slowed down behind.

It is a problem for Northern planners, how to convince local passengers to use the EMU services rather than the shorter yet longer distance DMU services. Perhaps when the 331s are running in pairs, and the DMU cascade has made a significant difference then the Morecambe / Carlisle services can be lengthened meaning more capacity for the peak services and passengers, as more local passengers can shoehorn onto the locals?

I've seen before when a solo 153 worked the 1645 Leeds-Morecambe it was shown on the boards as first stop Skipton to prevent Airedale line passengers from boarding. Removing Bingley may help, as well as the Steeton & Silsden call from the peak Carlisle. When the Morecambe used to leave Leeds at 1639 that had a painful amount of padding down the Aire Valley as it was shoehorned in around the locals meaning it was allocated more time between Leeds and Skipton than the stoppers!

 

[Chester1]

A proportion of Manchester to South Wales services are currently diagrammed for two-car units, but off the top of my head I wouldn't be able to say which ones.

I am surprised that any are booked as 2 car, Its rare to see any ATW between Stockport and Manchester that are 2 car.

Don't fall in to the same trap Virgin fell in to with XC. Extra services doesn't automatically mean fewer passengers on existing services.

I disagree about 2 coaches being adequate for all the Manchester - North Wales services. At busy periods, including parts of summer, they get good loads west of Chester. And outside peak hours, the Northern services will omit stations between Warrington & Chester.

And don't forget if they put 2 coach 195s on the Leeds - Chester services, they have only about 125 seats - fewer than a 156 or 158.

I agree it would not really be adequate, I am a regular user of the line for most of its length. The WG is very keen on an hourly Holyhead-Cardiff service after paying to redouble part of Chester-Wrexham and if the extra 1tp2h is 2 coaches it would exactly componsate for reducing Manchester to Llandudno services to 2 coaches. Reducing the number of doubled up units is the only way W&B will be able to increase frequency before it gets new stock. I agree that the higher frequency between Manchester and Chester will increase demand overtime too. I am just pointing out that introducing the service won't necessarily increase capacity by much, its not just Northern which is short of DMUs.

 

[Charlie150275]

I'm certainly very glad that the Little North Western enhancements are going ahead

Me too! Cant wait for a 19:xx from Leeds to Morecambe!

 

[Kite159]

It is a problem for Northern planners, how to convince local passengers to use the EMU services rather than the shorter yet longer distance DMU services.

Simple solution, make Leeds - Skipton pick up only on the DMU services and if any commuters chance it then it's a new fare to Gargrave (or wherever the next stop is).

 

[Bantamzen]

Simple solution, make Leeds - Skipton pick up only on the DMU services and if any commuters chance it then it's a new fare to Gargrave (or wherever the next stop is).

Sounds simple but with a rammed DMU how would you enforce it? Much better to add capacity to both local and skip-stoppers in the peaks than trying to reduce numbers on the DMU services by trying to make them pick up only in West Yorkshire.

 

[30907]

Sounds simple but with a rammed DMU how would you enforce it? Much better to add capacity to both local and skip-stoppers in the peaks than trying to reduce numbers on the DMU services by trying to make them pick up only in West Yorkshire.

There are 2 possibilities for enforcing U stops.
1. Run all the trains (and no others) from Leeds P1 with additional manual check at the buffer stop end. Inflexible operationally, costly, unpopular.
2. Run non stop. Tolerable, but removing Shipley potentially causes issues for Bradford commuters unless you enhance Bradford-Skipton.
Bantamzen is right - and ISTR that is what is being done when new stock arrives.

 

[YorkshireLad]

Not as exhaustive as the Manchester one but,

Seeing as there's no mention of services from Leeds to Lincoln is it safe to assume the extra services between Retford/Worksop and Sheffield are off?

 

[CHAPS2034]

I am surprised that any are booked as 2 car, Its rare to see any ATW between Stockport and Manchester that are 2 car.

As Bovverboy has noted there are a fair few 2 car 175s operating on the ATW services from S Wales into Piccadilly. I see them every day.

CW

 

[xotGD]

Simple solution, make Leeds - Skipton pick up only on the DMU services and if any commuters chance it then it's a new fare to Gargrave (or wherever the next stop is).

Make it first set-down Skipton and I might agree!

Ideally, the 18.06 Carlisle needs a 153 on the back as far as Skipton, or the diagram needs to be a 3 car 158. When this service leaves later from May it will attract even more local commuters.

 

[Kite159]

Pick-up only can be done via the guard opening the local door only to pick up the passengers heading for stations beyond Skipton.

After-all how many Skipton commuters prefer using a 158 over a 333, due to the interior layout? (A bit like at Waterloo when Woking folk turn down a 450 working the XX:15 services for a 159 on the XX:20 services due to having a better interior layout)

 

[Bantamzen]

Make it first set-down Skipton and I might agree!

Ideally, the 18.06 Carlisle needs a 153 on the back as far as Skipton, or the diagram needs to be a 3 car 158. When this service leaves later from May it will attract even more local commuters.

Pick-up only can be done via the guard opening the local door only to pick up the passengers heading for stations beyond Skipton.

After-all how many Skipton commuters prefer using a 158 over a 333, due to the interior layout? (A bit like at Waterloo when Woking folk turn down a 450 working the XX:15 services for a 159 on the XX:20 services due to having a better interior layout)

My experience is that Aire passengers will just ram onto the first, and closest service they can. I've sometimes ended up on the 17:40 to Skipton and that can be surprisingly quieter than those around it, mainly it seems because that comes ECS from Neville Hill and leaves from P11C, so maybe the answer is as simple as moving the Carlisle services to P9-12? I've seen passengers jump on the Bradford FS services and change at Shipley in both directions, so as long as a Carlisle / Morecambe was close in timing (preferably in front) of a stopper, with the former leaving from one of the island platforms and the stopper the west facing bays you might convince most people heading as far as Skipton to board the latter instead?

 

[IanXC]

My experience is that Aire passengers will just ram onto the first, and closest service they can. I've sometimes ended up on the 17:40 to Skipton and that can be surprisingly quieter than those around it, mainly it seems because that comes ECS from Neville Hill and leaves from P11C, so maybe the answer is as simple as moving the Carlisle services to P9-12? I've seen passengers jump on the Bradford FS services and change at Shipley in both directions, so as long as a Carlisle / Morecambe was close in timing (preferably in front) of a stopper, with the former leaving from one of the island platforms and the stopper the west facing bays you might convince most people heading as far as Skipton to board the latter instead?

I suspect there may be something in that. Certainly worthy of a trial I'd say!

 

[skpudding]

So when is this timetable getting loaded up then ? I’m bored ...

 

[stu99]

So when is this timetable getting loaded up then ? I’m bored ...

By the 7th April.

 

[xotGD]

Pick-up only can be done via the guard opening the local door only to pick up the passengers heading for stations beyond Skipton.

After-all how many Skipton commuters prefer using a 158 over a 333, due to the interior layout? (A bit like at Waterloo when Woking folk turn down a 450 working the XX:15 services for a 159 on the XX:20 services due to having a better interior layout)

I definitely prefer a 158 over a 333. And as was noted upthread, the 158 virtually catches up to the 333 in front of it by the time it reaches Skipton. Pity about the lack of wifi in the 158s, but a comfy seat wins it for me.

 

[nw-sparks]

So when is this timetable getting loaded up then ? I’m bored ...

The TPE Liverpool/Newcastle and Liverpool/Scarborough services appeared in my database last night, so I think it must be close. Maybe.

 

[Mathew S]

The TPE Liverpool/Newcastle and Liverpool/Scarborough services appeared in my database last night, so I think it must be close. Maybe.

The Scottish services are all in there as well, from what I can see.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The TPE Liverpool/Newcastle and Liverpool/Scarborough services appeared in my database last night, so I think it must be close. Maybe.

TPE perhaps being easier to do than Northern - a smaller fleet and smaller shortfall in units needed to fulfil all of their proposed enhancements. Plus someone has to go on the graph first so the others can fit around them?

 

[northwichcat]

TPE perhaps being easier to do than Northern - a smaller fleet and smaller shortfall in units needed to fulfil all of their proposed enhancements. Plus someone has to go on the graph first so the others can fit around them?

I also think TPE have to be done first and then Northern have to fit their services around the TPE ones.

 

[Halish Railway]

My experience is that Aire passengers will just ram onto the first, and closest service they can. I've sometimes ended up on the 17:40 to Skipton and that can be surprisingly quieter than those around it, mainly it seems because that comes ECS from Neville Hill and leaves from P11C, so maybe the answer is as simple as moving the Carlisle services to P9-12? I've seen passengers jump on the Bradford FS services and change at Shipley in both directions, so as long as a Carlisle / Morecambe was close in timing (preferably in front) of a stopper, with the former leaving from one of the island platforms and the stopper the west facing bays you might convince most people heading as far as Skipton to board the latter instead?

Interesting, it would be useful if there was a semi-fast 333 to Skipton at around 17:20 (instead of a 158) leaving from P5 at Leeds. We could see if it is just commuters going for a nicer 158 and taking some strain off the 17:26.

 

[xotGD]

If the Carlisle left a couple of minutes after a Bradford, you wouldn't get the Shipley commuters and those changing at Shipley for the intermediate stops piling on the Carlisle.

 

[Bantamzen]

Interesting, it would be useful if there was a semi-fast 333 to Skipton at around 17:20 (instead of a 158) leaving from P5 at Leeds. We could see if it is just commuters going for a nicer 158 and taking some strain off the 17:26.

There has been some talk of semi-fast EMU services previously. Perhaps with a re-cast the current extras in the peaks could be made into semi-fast?

If the Carlisle left a couple of minutes after a Bradford, you wouldn't get the Shipley commuters and those changing at Shipley for the intermediate stops piling on the Carlisle.

Its a good idea but the Bradford services are expected to work both Kirkstall and Apperley from May, so the DMU services would need a lot of padding to Shipley.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On RTT, the CLC route now shows the EMT service (unchanged) and the two Northern Liverpool-Oxford Road stoppers.
The stoppers run at xx55 (unchanged) and xx19 (was xx25) from Lime St, so I suspect the new Northern semi-fast service to Manchester Airport (not yet loaded) will go around xx15.
TPE's services via Victoria go at xx56 (Scarborough, calling at Lea Green) and xx25 (Newcastle, calling at Newton le Willows).

The RTT data still shows a full service to/from Lime St after June 2.
ie it does not reflect the changes for the Lime St closure and termination of services at South Parkway/Huyton.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

There has been some talk of semi-fast EMU services previously. Perhaps with a re-cast the current extras in the peaks could be made into semi-fast?

Indeed, 10 years ago Network Rail were suggesting plans for semi-fast EMUs (see the Yorkshire RUS from 2008), as reported here:

A new turnback facility at Keighley – either a platform or siding – would have to be built to allow this plan to work.

All passengers to and from the north of Keighley would use the semi-fast services which, when lengthened, would have sufficient capacity to accommodate future growth.

Passengers from Keighley and Bingley would have a choice of service types, but in reality most would be likely to use a semi-fast rather than a stopping train.

Rail users from all other stations would use the stopping services, which would then be significantly less crowded in the absence of passengers from north of Keighley.

Network Rail estimates that capacity would increase by between 40 and 50 percent and an economic appraisal suggests the move would offer medium to high value for money.

Full article: http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/3781225.Are_they_on_the_right_lines_for_travel_/

Not entirely sure what happened to the turnback plan but as no more was ever heard of it...

Also seems odd that these services wouldn't stop at Shipley - If you were travelling from Cononley or Steeton to Bradford/Ilkley then one would have to change at Keighley/Bingley on to a train to Shipley and then again to Bradford/Ilkley. But then I guess that's hardly that many people.

 

[headshot119]

I've skimmed the thread but may have missed it. What are the plans for the Cumbrian Coast on Sundays, I note there's some earlier trains loaded onto RTT, but nothing like the full service.

 

[Bantamzen]

Indeed, 10 years ago Network Rail were suggesting plans for semi-fast EMUs (see the Yorkshire RUS from 2008), as reported here:

Full article: http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/3781225.Are_they_on_the_right_lines_for_travel_/

Not entirely sure what happened to the turnback plan but as no more was ever heard of it...

Also seems odd that these services wouldn't stop at Shipley - If you were travelling from Cononley or Steeton to Bradford/Ilkley then one would have to change at Keighley/Bingley on to a train to Shipley and then again to Bradford/Ilkley. But then I guess that's hardly that many people.

This did all seem to fall under the radar, although with no small amount of irony the issue of a mix of 3 & 4 car EMUs raised in this will indeed be an issue for Northern planners when the 331s land, and of course platform length at Shipley will raise its ugly head again when they are run as 2*3 on the Leeds-Skipton runs. I was never sure that skipping Shipley was that good an idea, especially with the highest capacity services as Shipley is one of the busiest stations on the route. So I do think there might be merit in pathing the additional peaks to skip-stoppers only (so Skipton-Keighley-Bingley-Shipley-Leeds and visa versa), and for the evening peaks running just in front of the Carlisle / Morecambe to relieve the DMU services and free up capacity for passengers travelling beyond Skipton. However it is worth bearing in mind that Leeds-Shipley-Bradford will be gaining additional VTECs (or whoever has the franchise / contract), and hopefully at least one will be pathed during the peaks which is guaranteed to attract quite a lot of passengers to at least Shipley.

As an aside as it is highly unlikely, I also noted the proposal to have at least some peak services operate between Shipley-Baildon-Guiseley-Leeds. If only, during the recent week long block of the Guiseley to Apperley Junction line it was really nice to have a direct service on my commute rather than making a change and hanging around at Shipley or Guiseley for 15 mins each way. <Sigh>