91119: Returns to service and in Swallow livery too!

[D365]

Something that's just occurred to me with regard to the use of 90s on the ECML: Obviously when running Northbound the driver will be in the 90 so will know they're limited to 110mph... but heading Southbound and driving from the DVT, how does a driver make sure they don't forget what loco is on the back, and end up trying to get up to 125?

Surely it would just stop powering at 110mph? It’s not like the 170+153 combo where both units are powered.

 

[DarloRich]

The issue does seem to be time, as there is currently one way of making HST trailers compliant, which is being done by Wabtec at Doncaster, but between XC, Scotrail, and GWR they've not got any space to also do the EMT fleet in time for 2020, which is why there has been plenty of discussion about what they (or rather, the next operator) are going to do come 2020.

Mass derogations perhaps?

there will have to be a derogation or the railway will grind to a halt.

 

[hexagon789]

If a retrofit scheme is underway then I imagine a derogation would be politically acceptable.

The real question is how many HST trailers have a future.
Are we going to have fragments of every set in service? (ie. every power car with various numbers of trailers?)

I could see something along the lines of EMT getting good derogation for its HSTs and using spare trailers to lengthen the ex-GC sets to 8-car. Possibly even lengthening all sets to 9-car if possible.

 

[hexagon789]

Surely it would just stop powering at 110mph? It’s not like the 170+153 combo where both units are powered.

I don't know if they are fitted with maximum speed limiters, and I think their speed set goes above 110, perhaps someone can confirm/deny.

 

[hexagon789]

there will have to be a derogation or the railway will grind to a halt.

That's exactly why I think there will be one.

 

[D365]

I don't know if they are fitted with maximum speed limiters, and I think their speed set goes above 110, perhaps someone can confirm/deny.

The only vehicle in a Mk4 consist that’s powered is the locomotive, so I don’t see why it would cause an issue. Don’t forget the Mk3 + DVT consists are capable of 125mph, but the Class 90 (or 68) is not.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The Class 90 is almost certainly ‘capable’ of more than 110mph but isn’t permitted to do so!!!

I would expect the same to apply as was the case on the WCML when you had a Class 86 (100mph) on the back instead of a Class 87/90 (110mph) and some sort of post it note, speedset, professional driving policy would prevent overspeeding.

The main problem came when (so I’m told) a southbound train changed driver and the relief driver was not told is was a Class 86 on the back!

 

[hexagon789]

The only vehicle in a Mk4 consist that’s powered is the locomotive, so I don’t see why it would cause an issue. Don’t forget the Mk3 + DVT consists are capable of 125mph, but the Class 90 (or 68) is not.

I realise that, what I meant was I don't know if the speedset on the Class 90s themselves goes above 110 mph and whether you can physically go above 110 or if the locos have a device to strictly limit them to the maximum "permitted" speed. The 68s for example I believe will not exceed about 103 or the traction motors cut out and engine reverts to idle similar to the HSTs being limited to 128 mph.

 

[alexl92]

The Class 90 is almost certainly ‘capable’ of more than 110mph but isn’t permitted to do so!!!

Why is this? I know re-gearing has been discussed and dismissed before but it seems daft that if the loco can go faster on a 125mph route, it’s not allowed to?

 

[edwin_m]

Why is this? I know re-gearing has been discussed and dismissed before but it seems daft that if the loco can go faster on a 125mph route, it’s not allowed to?

It may be capable of exceeding its maximum speed, in fact it almost certainly is as one of the class is normally tested on 10% overspeed during acceptance. However it isn't designed to do a higher speed routinely and to do so might cause problems such as increased wear and maintenance to the loco itself or the track. Uprating the 350s to 110mph needed minor changes to the unit itself plus a whole heap of paperwork to demonstrate that everything had been considered and it was safe to run faster.

 

[gingertom]

The Class 90 is almost certainly ‘capable’ of more than 110mph but isn’t permitted to do so!!!

I would expect the same to apply as was the case on the WCML when you had a Class 86 (100mph) on the back instead of a Class 87/90 (110mph) and some sort of post it note, speedset, professional driving policy would prevent overspeeding.

The main problem came when (so I’m told) a southbound train changed driver and the relief driver was not told is was a Class 86 on the back!

IIRC the 90 was designed as a 125mph loco but needed the brakes upgrading to operate at the higher speed. If this was a relatively simple (=cheap) upgrade then I think the work would have been carried out long, long ago.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely it would just stop powering at 110mph? It’s not like the 170+153 combo where both units are powered.

Unless the 90 is fitted with a speed limiter that restricts the locomotive from going above 110mph without any external intervention then, when driving from the DVT, there would surely be nothing stopping a driver who forgot they have a 90 on the back trying to get to 125mph.

 

[hexagon789]

Unless the 90 is fitted with a speed limiter that restricts the locomotive from going above 110mph without any external intervention then, when driving from the DVT, there would surely be nothing stopping a driver who forgot they have a 90 on the back trying to get to 125mph.

From this Class 90 cab photo (not mine):
You can see the speedset only goes up to 110 mph.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

From this Class 90 cab photo (not mine):View attachment 44149
You can see the speedset only goes up to 110 mph.

But that wouldn't help if being driven from the DVT presumably?

 

[hexagon789]

But that wouldn't help if being driven from the DVT presumably?

I've no idea really, I would assume that with the cab shut down the speedset would not be active in the 90 but I'm not familiar with how the TDM system works exactly, the FDM system is the one I do know exactly how it works.

 

[ainsworth74]

You can see the speedset only goes up to 110 mph.

My impression was that the the speedset only works if the cab is active?

 

[hexagon789]

My impression was that the the speedset only works if the cab is active?

That's what I would think. But as the 90 is supplying traction power, it must be "active" to some extent of you see what I mean. I've no idea either way, hence why I was asking if anyone could confirm how it works.

 

[ainsworth74]

That's what I would think. But as the 90 is supplying traction power, it must be "active" to some extent of you see what I mean. I've no idea either way, hence why I was asking if anyone could confirm how it works.

Yes very true!

Anyone able to give us a clue?!?

 

[hexagon789]

Yes very true!

Anyone able to give us a clue?!?

I know that when the 86/87/90s and Mk2f/Mk3s sets were on the WCML, with the 86s and 87s, provided the speedset wasn't set you could go over 110 mph.

 

[bonzawe]

That's what I would think. But as the 90 is supplying traction power, it must be "active" to some extent of you see what I mean. I've no idea either way, hence why I was asking if anyone could confirm how it works.

In the book Train Doctor (Roger Senior) pg 155 there is a story edited a little

that after a set swap at Leeds, driving from the DVT driver initially had no issues, but going down stoke unable to attain 125 and intermittent wheel slip indications, reported to control and continued to London. Wheel-slip problems went away below 115, met by fitters in KX to be told he had a 90. Replied I'm not passed to drive those. After that printed warning placed in DVT when 90 used.

 

[hexagon789]

In the book Train Doctor (Roger Senior) pg 155 there is a story edited a little

​

Interesting, so you can exceed 110 in a 90 ordinarily, it would seem. Do you know when that anecdote dates from?

 

[bonzawe]

Interesting, so you can exceed 110 in a 90 ordinarily, it would seem. Do you know when that anecdote dates from?

The book quotes no dates but Roger was working as a technical Riding Inspector from the 1990's, from the book I think this story would be the early 2000's with GNER

 

[hexagon789]

The book quotes no dates but Roger was working as a technical Riding Inspector from the 1990's, from the book I think this story would be the early 2000's with GNER

I see, thanks.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Gather 1S18 (booked for a 91) has hit sheep near Berwick and it’s caused some damage. Could be that another one is out of action for a while.

 

[tsr]

Gather 1S18 (booked for a 91) has hit sheep near Berwick and it’s caused some damage. Could be that another one is out of action for a while.

Three trains hit sheep (10-12 between them...). The trains on 1S15 / 1S43 suffered slight damage.

1S18 suffered more extensive damage but is now on the move under its own power. Thunderbird to remain in the area - in case.

 

[hexagon789]

Gather 1S18 (booked for a 91) has hit sheep near Berwick and it’s caused some damage. Could be that another one is out of action for a while.

That's not good - poor sheep

 

[hexagon789]

Three trains hit sheep (10-12 between them...). The trains on 1S15 / 1S43 suffered slight damage.

Ouch, that sounds like utter carnage, must have made a right mess

 

[hexagon789]

90MPH in a 142 must be terrifying!

75 mph is terrifying enough, 90 would frighten the life out of you!

 

[driver_m]

Just to confirm. Yes you could exceed 110 with a DVT leading with a 90 on the back (or 86/87) . It's speedset was capable of 125 as it was passed for 125. The 90 speedset was limited to 110.

 

[hexagon789]

Just to confirm. Yes you could exceed 110 with a DVT leading with a 90 on the back (or 86/87) . It's speedset was capable of 125 as it was passed for 125. The 90 speedset was limited to 110.

That was the impression I had.